BoxRec

wsbuf wrote:Miller has to improve his defence. His confidence will be a liability against better opponents if he dosnt.

I had no problem with the decisions. Close fights scores were about right .

Off TV fights were way more exciting

I was thinking that maybe the way Big Baby is built he will have trouble holding his hands up for a long period of time.

For what I see, Miller is like the American version of Dillian Whyte.

gilgamesh wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
BR's rankings system sucks, it's better than most Alphabet Orgs rankings, but that's about it.

So if BoxRec's rankings are so pants, which rankings would you trust?

Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, The 13th round (a site where my own rankings are factored in)...and that's about it. Most Rankings these days are motivated by the owner (The Ring) or able to be bought (Alphabet Orgs). I don't think BoxRec's rankings are accurate just because something about the computer program they use is unable to factor in other elements that might not be as obvious. It's focused purely on results it seems, and even then I don't always get the system.

Right, so as far as I can tell (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but Transnational Boxing rankings only give a top 10 of each division? And The 13th Round is just another forum site which takes into account people's opinions?

That's all very well and good, but it's not very comprehensive and it's highly subjective. At least BoxRec goes in depth and takes into account how the win was achieved, and awards points objectively depending on who each fighter fights. As I've stated before, I don't believe it's perfect, but it gives a pretty accurate picture of how a division looks overall. I'm sure we all believe that Kassi is higher than rank 97, but what's he done to prove that? His best win is against someone who is barely in the top 500, and his biggest accumulation of points was a draw against Arreola.

One thing which raised my eyebrow about BoxRec was how Fury went from 447 to 802 just because of one fight. Yes we all agree he beat the man, but just felt that it was an oversight by the system. That's just my opinion though.

Rob3_142 wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
So if BoxRec's rankings are so pants, which rankings would you trust?

Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, The 13th round (a site where my own rankings are factored in)...and that's about it. Most Rankings these days are motivated by the owner (The Ring) or able to be bought (Alphabet Orgs). I don't think BoxRec's rankings are accurate just because something about the computer program they use is unable to factor in other elements that might not be as obvious. It's focused purely on results it seems, and even then I don't always get the system.

Right, so as far as I can tell (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but Transnational Boxing rankings only give a top 10 of each division? And The 13th Round is just another forum site which takes into account people's opinions?

That's all very well and good, but it's not very comprehensive and it's highly subjective. At least BoxRec goes in depth and takes into account how the win was achieved, and awards points objectively depending on who each fighter fights. As I've stated before, I don't believe it's perfect, but it gives a pretty accurate picture of how a division looks overall. I'm sure we all believe that Kassi is higher than rank 97, but what's he done to prove that? His best win is against someone who is barely in the top 500, and his biggest accumulation of points was a draw against Arreola.

One thing which raised my eyebrow about BoxRec was how Fury went from 447 to 802 just because of one fight. Yes we all agree he beat the man, but just felt that it was an oversight by the system. That's just my opinion though.

Boxrec's definitely the most deep rankings you'll find anywhere I can't dispute that. I can't think of any other rankings system that goes beyond a Top 30 so yes they're the only ones that even go up to #97 in their rankings so you've got a point there.

Rob3_142 wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

crusader wrote:Kassi is underated by BoxRec because it doesn't account for the questionable scoring against Arreola (now #45) and Breazeale (now #27). He should've gotten the win in the first case and in my view a draw in the second case, or at worst a very close loss rather than the absurd 10-0/8-2 scores.

Yep. He beat Arreola IMO, and I agree he fought Breazeale to a draw or at worst a 96-94 loss. He packed it in pretty easy last night against Miller though so that'll probably drop his reputation pretty immensely.

I think it'd be funny if someone like Shannon Briggs fought him trying to get a slightly noteworthy win at this point in his career because I'm pretty confident Kassi would beat Briggs.

Although you may well have a very valid point, he still lost those fights, and BoxRec would take that into account when determining his rank. I think someone saying 'he's rank 45 at least' is very subjective at best. I don't think any rankings would take into account performances without coming under some scrutiny. I personally think BoxRec is pretty reliable, not perfect, but pretty close to something which reflects what's actually going on in the division.

That may be the biggest problem with BoxRec rankings. It just takes into consideration what the official result was, without being able to look further into it. Gabriel Campillo, for example, dropped in the ranking after outclassing Shumenov, because BoxRec could only read the scores.

Human rankings can account for these cases, but BoxRec can't.

crusader wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
Yep. He beat Arreola IMO, and I agree he fought Breazeale to a draw or at worst a 96-94 loss. He packed it in pretty easy last night against Miller though so that'll probably drop his reputation pretty immensely.

I think it'd be funny if someone like Shannon Briggs fought him trying to get a slightly noteworthy win at this point in his career because I'm pretty confident Kassi would beat Briggs.

Although you may well have a very valid point, he still lost those fights, and BoxRec would take that into account when determining his rank. I think someone saying 'he's rank 45 at least' is very subjective at best. I don't think any rankings would take into account performances without coming under some scrutiny. I personally think BoxRec is pretty reliable, not perfect, but pretty close to something which reflects what's actually going on in the division.

That may be the biggest problem with BoxRec rankings. It just takes into consideration what the official result was, without being able to look further into it. Gabriel Campillo, for example, dropped in the ranking after outclassing Shumenov, because BoxRec could only read the scores.

Human rankings can account for these cases, but BoxRec can't.

Yes that is true, but you will accumulate more points for a KO than SD in BoxRec, so it does to some degree take into account how you win your matches. The problem is with human rankings is that they're massively subjective. You have three judges run the cards during every fight, and even then they can't always agree. How subjective would rankings be? I mean a prime example, Chisora won one of the three judges cards against Pulev, but I'm yet to find a person who thinks Chisora was anywhere close to winning that fight. This is how human rankings would fall flat on their face.

gilgamesh wrote:

crusader wrote:Kassi is underated by BoxRec because it doesn't account for the questionable scoring against Arreola (now #45) and Breazeale (now #27). He should've gotten the win in the first case and in my view a draw in the second case, or at worst a very close loss rather than the absurd 10-0/8-2 scores.

Yep. He beat Arreola IMO, and I agree he fought Breazeale to a draw or at worst a 96-94 loss. He packed it in pretty easy last night against Miller though so that'll probably drop his reputation pretty immensely.

I think it'd be funny if someone like Shannon Briggs fought him trying to get a slightly noteworthy win at this point in his career because I'm pretty confident Kassi would beat Briggs.

I disagree, but like to see that fight as well if David Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs.

Santiago was straight up robbed period. It was a disgraceful decision. As for Miller, I was there in Detroit when he called out Andy Ruiz after his fight recently. Size might be a problem for Andy, but Andy would definitely box the brakes off of the Big Baby.

Rob3_142 wrote:
Yes that is true, but you will accumulate more points for a KO than SD in BoxRec, so it does to some degree take into account how you win your matches. The problem is with human rankings is that they're massively subjective. You have three judges run the cards during every fight, and even then they can't always agree. How subjective would rankings be? I mean a prime example, Chisora won one of the three judges cards against Pulev, but I'm yet to find a person who thinks Chisora was anywhere close to winning that fight. This is how human rankings would fall flat on their face.

There are so many blatantly fraudulent decisions in boxing. BoxRec never takes that into account, do they?

x2x wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
Yes that is true, but you will accumulate more points for a KO than SD in BoxRec, so it does to some degree take into account how you win your matches. The problem is with human rankings is that they're massively subjective. You have three judges run the cards during every fight, and even then they can't always agree. How subjective would rankings be? I mean a prime example, Chisora won one of the three judges cards against Pulev, but I'm yet to find a person who thinks Chisora was anywhere close to winning that fight. This is how human rankings would fall flat on their face.

There are so many blatantly fraudulent decisions in boxing. BoxRec never takes that into account, do they?

how could they? you can't start overturning decisions arbitrarily.

x2x wrote:

Rob3_142 wrote:
Yes that is true, but you will accumulate more points for a KO than SD in BoxRec, so it does to some degree take into account how you win your matches. The problem is with human rankings is that they're massively subjective. You have three judges run the cards during every fight, and even then they can't always agree. How subjective would rankings be? I mean a prime example, Chisora won one of the three judges cards against Pulev, but I'm yet to find a person who thinks Chisora was anywhere close to winning that fight. This is how human rankings would fall flat on their face.

There are so many blatantly fraudulent decisions in boxing. BoxRec never takes that into account, do they?

Well BoxRec just takes the result into account. If the result is fraudulent, then it potentially causes problems, but that's a bigger problem than the rankings, don't you think?

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

crusader wrote:Kassi is underated by BoxRec because it doesn't account for the questionable scoring against Arreola (now #45) and Breazeale (now #27). He should've gotten the win in the first case and in my view a draw in the second case, or at worst a very close loss rather than the absurd 10-0/8-2 scores.

Yep. He beat Arreola IMO, and I agree he fought Breazeale to a draw or at worst a 96-94 loss. He packed it in pretty easy last night against Miller though so that'll probably drop his reputation pretty immensely.

I think it'd be funny if someone like Shannon Briggs fought him trying to get a slightly noteworthy win at this point in his career because I'm pretty confident Kassi would beat Briggs.

I disagree, but like to see that fight as well if David Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs.

If Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs. I don't know who he WOULD be brave enough to face. Briggs is the easiest mark out there for him with any kinda name value.

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
Yep. He beat Arreola IMO, and I agree he fought Breazeale to a draw or at worst a 96-94 loss. He packed it in pretty easy last night against Miller though so that'll probably drop his reputation pretty immensely.

I think it'd be funny if someone like Shannon Briggs fought him trying to get a slightly noteworthy win at this point in his career because I'm pretty confident Kassi would beat Briggs.

I disagree, but like to see that fight as well if David Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs.

If Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs. I don't know who he WOULD be brave enough to face. Briggs is the easiest mark out there for him with any kinda name value.

Go ahead, let him do it like he promised, let's see what really happens.

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:
I disagree, but like to see that fight as well if David Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs.

If Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs. I don't know who he WOULD be brave enough to face. Briggs is the easiest mark out there for him with any kinda name value.

Go ahead, let him do it like he promised, let's see what really happens.

Haye would beat Briggs easy as hell

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
If Haye is too much of a pussy to fight Briggs. I don't know who he WOULD be brave enough to face. Briggs is the easiest mark out there for him with any kinda name value.

Go ahead, let him do it like he promised, let's see what really happens.

Haye would beat Briggs easy as hell

show it? What's the problem?

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote: Go ahead, let him do it like he promised, let's see what really happens.

Haye would beat Briggs easy as hell

show it? What's the problem?

Briggs frankly doesn't even deserve a big money fight like that. He's been shot for years, and hasn't fought a meaningful opponent since Vitali beat him to within an inch of his life.

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
Haye would beat Briggs easy as hell

show it? What's the problem?

Briggs frankly doesn't even deserve a big money fight like that. He's been shot for years, and hasn't fought a meaningful opponent since Vitali beat him to within an inch of his life.

He didn't even do it for the money, never even asked joshua for example, unlike all the moneyhunters like Haye, who took by far most of the money Briggs created in his last fight, with false promises. Haye didn't dare to fight Vitali lol and Briggs did 12 rounds with him with one arm. And remember, unlike Arreola, Vitali didn't give up the fight, as soon as he realised his opponend was injured.

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:show it? What's the problem?

Briggs frankly doesn't even deserve a big money fight like that. He's been shot for years, and hasn't fought a meaningful opponent since Vitali beat him to within an inch of his life.

He didn't even do it for the money, never even asked joshua for example, unlike all the moneyhunters like Haye, who took by far most of the money Briggs created in his last fight, with false promises. Haye didn't dare to fight Vitali lol and Briggs did 12 rounds with him with one arm. And remember, unlike Arreola, Vitali didn't give up the fight, as soon as he realised his opponend was injured.

He didn't do what for the money? Everything Briggs has done in recent years harassing Wlad and following him around is all about money. He wants a big money fight without earning it by beating legitimate contenders. He's been trying to talk his way into a big fight for a few years now, but he's not getting it because he keeps on fighting bums that don't advance his ranking or reputation beyond "Shot old man looking for one last payday"

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
Briggs frankly doesn't even deserve a big money fight like that. He's been shot for years, and hasn't fought a meaningful opponent since Vitali beat him to within an inch of his life.

He didn't even do it for the money, never even asked joshua for example, unlike all the moneyhunters like Haye, who took by far most of the money Briggs created in his last fight, with false promises. Haye didn't dare to fight Vitali lol and Briggs did 12 rounds with him with one arm. And remember, unlike Arreola, Vitali didn't give up the fight, as soon as he realised his opponend was injured.

He didn't do what for the money? Everything Briggs has done in recent years harassing Wlad and following him around is all about money. He wants a big money fight without earning it by beating legitimate contenders. He's been trying to talk his way into a big fight for a few years now, but he's not getting it because he keeps on fighting bums that don't advance his ranking or reputation beyond "Shot old man looking for one last payday"

He offered Wilder 2m, they even had nagotiations before Wilder chose Szpilka. They offered 500k, then said we call you back, then suddenly lowered to 400k, Briggs accepted again, they said ok, we call you back, then it became only a 100k (for a world titlefight!), Briggs said I'll even fight for free, winner takes all! And Wilder ducked him again, saying that the WBC (Wilder his friends) didn't rank him high ( just like Arreola, who amazingly appeared in the top 15 as soon as Wilder asked for it). So don't act like Briggs is after money, that's bullshit, he just want to take down big talkers who can't fight, but still talk like they can and cherrypick.

Briggs would currently have the odds against anyone Haye has ever won a boxing match against in his entire life, anyone.

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote: He didn't even do it for the money, never even asked joshua for example, unlike all the moneyhunters like Haye, who took by far most of the money Briggs created in his last fight, with false promises. Haye didn't dare to fight Vitali lol and Briggs did 12 rounds with him with one arm. And remember, unlike Arreola, Vitali didn't give up the fight, as soon as he realised his opponend was injured.

He didn't do what for the money? Everything Briggs has done in recent years harassing Wlad and following him around is all about money. He wants a big money fight without earning it by beating legitimate contenders. He's been trying to talk his way into a big fight for a few years now, but he's not getting it because he keeps on fighting bums that don't advance his ranking or reputation beyond "Shot old man looking for one last payday"

He offered Wilder 2m, they even had nagotiations before Wilder chose Szpilka. They offered 500k, then said we call you back, then suddenly lowered to 400k, Briggs accepted again, they said ok, we call you back, then it became only a 100k (for a world titlefight!), Briggs said I'll even fight for free, winner takes all! And Wilder ducked him again, saying that the WBC (Wilder his friends) didn't rank him high ( just like Arreola, who amazingly appeared in the top 15 as soon as Wilder asked for it). So don't act like Briggs is after money, that's bullshit, he just want to take down big talkers who can't fight, but still talk like they can and cherrypick.

Briggs would currently have the odds against anyone Haye has ever won a boxing match against in his entire life, anyone.

Briggs is shot. He has big power for 1 or 2 rounds, and then he's a punching bag. Wilder or Haye both stop him inside 3 or 4 rounds. Valuev or John Ruiz would be even money to beat Briggs at their best. The Valuev that Haye beat would've beaten Briggs at the time. John Ruiz would've been 50/50 with Briggs at his best (which is to say, his holding, making a sh*t fight out of it...worst)

Wilder probably WILL wind up fighting Briggs. That's just the kinda opponent he likes.

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
He didn't do what for the money? Everything Briggs has done in recent years harassing Wlad and following him around is all about money. He wants a big money fight without earning it by beating legitimate contenders. He's been trying to talk his way into a big fight for a few years now, but he's not getting it because he keeps on fighting bums that don't advance his ranking or reputation beyond "Shot old man looking for one last payday"

He offered Wilder 2m, they even had nagotiations before Wilder chose Szpilka. They offered 500k, then said we call you back, then suddenly lowered to 400k, Briggs accepted again, they said ok, we call you back, then it became only a 100k (for a world titlefight!), Briggs said I'll even fight for free, winner takes all! And Wilder ducked him again, saying that the WBC (Wilder his friends) didn't rank him high ( just like Arreola, who amazingly appeared in the top 15 as soon as Wilder asked for it). So don't act like Briggs is after money, that's bullshit, he just want to take down big talkers who can't fight, but still talk like they can and cherrypick.

Briggs would currently have the odds against anyone Haye has ever won a boxing match against in his entire life, anyone.

Briggs is shot. He has big power for 1 or 2 rounds, and then he's a punching bag. Wilder or Haye both stop him inside 3 or 4 rounds. Valuev or John Ruiz would be even money to beat Briggs at their best. The Valuev that Haye beat would've beaten Briggs at the time. John Ruiz would've been 50/50 with Briggs at his best (which is to say, his holding, making a sh*t fight out of it...worst)

Wilder probably WILL wind up fighting Briggs. That's just the kinda opponent he likes.

Nonsense, Valuev had pain in all of his bones and the 46 year old he fought before Haye clearly showed a lot better performance as Haye himself. Somehow that 46 year old lost and Haye won. Ruiz has absolutely no chance, I'm not dven sure if he's still in the boxrec top 100, like other boxers Briggs has recently beaten. Briggs also recently showed he can fight for 12 rounds against a young lad, and win pretty much all rounds, so I see your comment more as a clear copy paste opinion as someone that actually knows what he's talking about.

Valuev wasn't much of a fighter, but he could take a punch. Briggs gasses after 3 rounds. Valuev wins a decision over Briggs pretty much every time they could've fought from 2007 or so onward...maybe not now since he's hung 'em up for a few years, but during his active years he could've beaten Briggs no doubt in my mind.

Ruiz isn't an impressive fighter, but he was able to make fights ugly and limit guys ability to land clean on him by hugging and holding all the time. I'm certain Ruiz isn't in the Top 100 anymore because he's retired, but when he was active particularly in the years between 2002 and 2004 I would've considered a fight between him and Briggs a 50/50 fight, and I figure a good deal of the time especially during those years Ruiz would've won.

Briggs is shot. He'd have a mild puncher's chance against Haye, but seeing as how Haye is about 4x faster than Briggs, and hits almost as hard he'd kick Briggs' ass within 1 or 2 rounds. The best thing Haye could do actually is jump right on Briggs and blast him out before he even has a chance to get them old dinosaur arms moving.

Put it this way...Chris Arreola ain't sh*t right? Not a Top 20 fighter anymore right? He'd beat Briggs comfortably. So would Travis Kauffman. Or Gerald Washington or Oscar Rivas...or any of the guys on the back end of the Top 20.

Artur Szpilka would win every round against Briggs.

gilgamesh wrote: Put it this way...Chris Arreola ain't sh*t right? Not a Top 20 fighter anymore right? He'd beat Briggs comfortably. So would Travis Kauffman. Or Gerald Washington or Oscar Rivas...or any of the guys on the back end of the Top 20.

Artur Szpilka would win every round against Briggs.

Let any of them show it? I think Briggs would sweep the floor with Arreola actually. Rivas and Washington should fight each other, but that's another nice thing from Briggs, he let the youth do whatever they like to do and focusses on the cherrypickers that don't deserve their status.

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote: Put it this way...Chris Arreola ain't sh*t right? Not a Top 20 fighter anymore right? He'd beat Briggs comfortably. So would Travis Kauffman. Or Gerald Washington or Oscar Rivas...or any of the guys on the back end of the Top 20.

Artur Szpilka would win every round against Briggs.

Let any of them show it? I think Briggs would sweep the floor with Arreola actually. Rivas and Washington should fight each other, but that's another nice thing from Briggs, he let the youth do whatever they like to do and focusses on the cherrypickers that don't deserve their status.

Briggs won't fight guys like that because he knows damn well they'd beat him. He only wants to fight guys that are gonna fall over in the 1st or 2nd round and talk a bunch of sh*t until David Haye or one of the Titleholders fights him. He has no interest in earning a title shot. He just wants it to be handed to him because of his mouth. Shannon Briggs isn't Top 40. He was at one time...but it's been a long while since he's been relevant. Even when he got his shot at Vitali he was seen as a soft opponent for Vitali...rightfully so.

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote: Put it this way...Chris Arreola ain't sh*t right? Not a Top 20 fighter anymore right? He'd beat Briggs comfortably. So would Travis Kauffman. Or Gerald Washington or Oscar Rivas...or any of the guys on the back end of the Top 20.

Artur Szpilka would win every round against Briggs.

Let any of them show it? I think Briggs would sweep the floor with Arreola actually. Rivas and Washington should fight each other, but that's another nice thing from Briggs, he let the youth do whatever they like to do and focusses on the cherrypickers that don't deserve their status.

Briggs won't fight guys like that because he knows damn well they'd beat him. He only wants to fight guys that are gonna fall over in the 1st or 2nd round and talk a bunch of sh*t until David Haye or one of the Titleholders fights him. He has no interest in earning a title shot. He just wants it to be handed to him because of his mouth. Shannon Briggs isn't Top 40. He was at one time...but it's been a long while since he's been relevant. Even when he got his shot at Vitali he was seen as a soft opponent for Vitali...rightfully so.

Lol