BoxRec

Seamus wrote:Golota.

Fantastic shout.

He beat the brown stuff out Bowe twice & sent Big Daddy into retirement, but threw both fights away.

Because of that, Bowe can claim to have beaten every man he faced, even though he did no such thing against Golota.

The HW division is full of names that could populate this thread.

Many of the best have been mentioned already, but I'm going to add a slightly less obvious one:

Dominic Guinn!

Just over a decade ago, he was supposed to be the man to take over from Lennox Lewis & rule the HWs, but he didn't even come close to that.

The HW division needed Guinn, at a time when a huge void was left & he could not deliver.

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:Tim Witherspoon had loads of talent... He only had 7 amateur fights but the learned fast.. I was very angry at his team for putting him in with Larry Holmes when he had 15 fights.. WHY??? If a kid is showing so much potential after 15 fights, let him sharpen up for another 10 fights -- and he'd be sure to win the title instead of maybe getting knocked out.. Everybody told Tim he won the Holmes fight and it went to his head big time.

Spoon fought extremely well versus Holmes, but I didn't think he won.. That was probably his best career effort and it's a shame.. He made very poor efforts preparing for the majority of his post-Holmes fights... Other slackers were: Buster Douglas, Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Michael Dokes, John Tate, Riddick Bowe etc... Tyrell Biggs is another who had potential and they pushed him up against Tyson way early... Why do that???

The worst rush job was Marvis Frazier... He was 10-0 when he was pushed him against Larry Holmes 44-0... The funny thing is, his dad wanted the fight.

When you say that Marvis's father wanted the fight, do you mean Smokin' Joe was planning a comeback against Holmes, or that he wanted Marvis to fight Holmes?

He certainly didn't mean that Joe wanted to fight Wilt Chamberlain.

Kalan wrote:Tim Witherspoon had loads of talent... He only had 7 amateur fights but the learned fast.. I was very angry at his team for putting him in with Larry Holmes when he had 15 fights.. WHY??? If a kid is showing so much potential after 15 fights, let him sharpen up for another 10 fights -- and he'd be sure to win the title instead of maybe getting knocked out.. Everybody told Tim he won the Holmes fight and it went to his head big time.

Spoon fought extremely well versus Holmes, but I didn't think he won.. That was probably his best career effort and it's a shame.. He made very poor efforts preparing for the majority of his post-Holmes fights... Other slackers were: Buster Douglas, Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Michael Dokes, John Tate, Riddick Bowe etc... Tyrell Biggs is another who had potential and they pushed him up against Tyson way early... Why do that???

The worst rush job was Marvis Frazier... He was 10-0 when he was pushed him against Larry Holmes 44-0... The funny thing is, his dad wanted the fight.

out of interest how do you think joshua would of done against holmes at 15-0 ?

That reminds me, Wilt never ever signed the contract with Joe.

Another HW champ ducked, and another blemish on the ol' resume.

British wise i would say Audley Harrison. He was bigged up somewhat but didnt get past domestic level.

Also Herbie Hide. He was an exciting fighter early on but could not mix it with the big boys.

If Tim Witherspoon had been a gym rat he'd be in the IBHOF. And you can all laugh, but if he was seriously dedicated to training and a healthy diet, Kirk Johnson would have been an excellent fighter.

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:Tim Witherspoon had loads of talent... He only had 7 amateur fights but the learned fast.. I was very angry at his team for putting him in with Larry Holmes when he had 15 fights.. WHY??? If a kid is showing so much potential after 15 fights, let him sharpen up for another 10 fights -- and he'd be sure to win the title instead of maybe getting knocked out.. Everybody told Tim he won the Holmes fight and it went to his head big time.

Spoon fought extremely well versus Holmes, but I didn't think he won.. That was probably his best career effort and it's a shame.. He made very poor efforts preparing for the majority of his post-Holmes fights... Other slackers were: Buster Douglas, Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Michael Dokes, John Tate, Riddick Bowe etc... Tyrell Biggs is another who had potential and they pushed him up against Tyson way early... Why do that???

The worst rush job was Marvis Frazier... He was 10-0 when he was pushed him against Larry Holmes 44-0... The funny thing is, his dad wanted the fight.

When you say that Marvis's father wanted the fight, do you mean Smokin' Joe was planning a comeback against Holmes, or that he wanted Marvis to fight Holmes?

He wanted Marvis to fight Holmes at that point... "Marvis is ready. Marvis is a truck."

littlepug wrote:

Kalan wrote:Tim Witherspoon had loads of talent... He only had 7 amateur fights but the learned fast.. I was very angry at his team for putting him in with Larry Holmes when he had 15 fights.. WHY??? If a kid is showing so much potential after 15 fights, let him sharpen up for another 10 fights -- and he'd be sure to win the title instead of maybe getting knocked out.. Everybody told Tim he won the Holmes fight and it went to his head big time.

Spoon fought extremely well versus Holmes, but I didn't think he won.. That was probably his best career effort and it's a shame.. He made very poor efforts preparing for the majority of his post-Holmes fights... Other slackers were: Buster Douglas, Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Michael Dokes, John Tate, Riddick Bowe etc... Tyrell Biggs is another who had potential and they pushed him up against Tyson way early... Why do that???

The worst rush job was Marvis Frazier... He was 10-0 when he was pushed him against Larry Holmes 44-0... The funny thing is, his dad wanted the fight.

out of interest how do you think joshua would of done against holmes at 15-0 ?

He would have beaten him... AJ's right counter is just too good... Holmes was vulnerable to big right hands for much of his title reign.

A little known fact is that Holmes ripped his left biceps badly training for the Norton fight.. he could never retract his jab with the same lightning fast rubber band snap after that injury.. Ronaldo Snipes almost got him...many referees would have stopped that fight when Larry reeled into the ropes after barely beating the count.. Shavers almost did Larry with a right in their rematch.. Michael Spinks couldn't hurt Larry, not being a real Heavyweight, but he got him with enough rights to impress the judges.. Tyson blew Larry away with rights.. Holmes learned to compensate and finesse right hand counters using other techniques -- but it was often pretty edgy.

Kalan wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:Tim Witherspoon had loads of talent... He only had 7 amateur fights but the learned fast.. I was very angry at his team for putting him in with Larry Holmes when he had 15 fights.. WHY??? If a kid is showing so much potential after 15 fights, let him sharpen up for another 10 fights -- and he'd be sure to win the title instead of maybe getting knocked out.. Everybody told Tim he won the Holmes fight and it went to his head big time.

Spoon fought extremely well versus Holmes, but I didn't think he won.. That was probably his best career effort and it's a shame.. He made very poor efforts preparing for the majority of his post-Holmes fights... Other slackers were: Buster Douglas, Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Michael Dokes, John Tate, Riddick Bowe etc... Tyrell Biggs is another who had potential and they pushed him up against Tyson way early... Why do that???

The worst rush job was Marvis Frazier... He was 10-0 when he was pushed him against Larry Holmes 44-0... The funny thing is, his dad wanted the fight.

When you say that Marvis's father wanted the fight, do you mean Smokin' Joe was planning a comeback against Holmes, or that he wanted Marvis to fight Holmes?

He wanted Marvis to fight Holmes at that point... "Marvis is ready. Marvis is a truck."

Thanks for that.

I thought it was about Smokin' Joe coming back at nearly 40 to fight Holmes; that would have been painful.

Kalan wrote:

littlepug wrote:

Kalan wrote:Tim Witherspoon had loads of talent... He only had 7 amateur fights but the learned fast.. I was very angry at his team for putting him in with Larry Holmes when he had 15 fights.. WHY??? If a kid is showing so much potential after 15 fights, let him sharpen up for another 10 fights -- and he'd be sure to win the title instead of maybe getting knocked out.. Everybody told Tim he won the Holmes fight and it went to his head big time.

Spoon fought extremely well versus Holmes, but I didn't think he won.. That was probably his best career effort and it's a shame.. He made very poor efforts preparing for the majority of his post-Holmes fights... Other slackers were: Buster Douglas, Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Michael Dokes, John Tate, Riddick Bowe etc... Tyrell Biggs is another who had potential and they pushed him up against Tyson way early... Why do that???

The worst rush job was Marvis Frazier... He was 10-0 when he was pushed him against Larry Holmes 44-0... The funny thing is, his dad wanted the fight.

out of interest how do you think joshua would of done against holmes at 15-0 ?

He would have beaten him... AJ's right counter is just too good... Holmes was vulnerable to big right hands for much of his title reign.

A little known fact is that Holmes ripped his left biceps badly training for the Norton fight.. he could never retract his jab with the same lightning fast rubber band snap after that injury.. Ronaldo Snipes almost got him...many referees would have stopped that fight when Larry reeled into the ropes after barely beating the count.. Shavers almost did Larry with a right in their rematch.. Michael Spinks couldn't hurt Larry, not being a real Heavyweight, but he got him with enough rights to impress the judges.. Tyson blew Larry away with rights.. Holmes learned to compensate and finesse right hand counters using other techniques -- but it was often pretty edgy.

Hmm cant see it myself, think josh would be too busy having jabs bouncing off him all night to land anything himself

Kalan wrote:Tim Witherspoon had loads of talent... He only had 7 amateur fights but the learned fast.. I was very angry at his team for putting him in with Larry Holmes when he had 15 fights.. WHY??? If a kid is showing so much potential after 15 fights, let him sharpen up for another 10 fights -- and he'd be sure to win the title instead of maybe getting knocked out.. Everybody told Tim he won the Holmes fight and it went to his head big time.

Spoon fought extremely well versus Holmes, but I didn't think he won.. That was probably his best career effort and it's a shame.. He made very poor efforts preparing for the majority of his post-Holmes fights... Other slackers were: Buster Douglas, Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Michael Dokes, John Tate, Riddick Bowe etc... Tyrell Biggs is another who had potential and they pushed him up against Tyson way early... Why do that???

The worst rush job was Marvis Frazier... He was 10-0 when he was pushed him against Larry Holmes 44-0... The funny thing is, his dad wanted the fight.

I heard Joe Frazier say after the fight - "The mistake I made was not bringing a bell with me, when Marvis got caught in the corner, I should have started ringing the bell." - But I am with you, he rushed the kid; no way was the kid ready for that fight, he got mugged - credit to Holmes for seeing the opportunity to end it fast, and did - can't blame Larry.

Syntax Error wrote:

Seamus wrote:Golota.

Fantastic shout.

He beat the brown stuff out Bowe twice & sent Big Daddy into retirement, but threw both fights away.

Because of that, Bowe can claim to have beaten every man he faced, even though he did no such thing against Golota.

The HW division is full of names that could populate this thread.

Many of the best have been mentioned already, but I'm going to add a slightly less obvious one:

Dominic Guinn!

Just over a decade ago, he was supposed to be the man to take over from Lennox Lewis & rule the HWs, but he didn't even come close to that.

The HW division needed Guinn, at a time when a huge void was left & he could not deliver.

Now that him and Harrison have been mention we have to post this.

Harrison was brought along WAY too slowly... They got chicken fat on him... That's as detrimental as moving a kid too fast.

Cus D'Amato said, "70% of a boxer's success is due to good matchmaking. It's not just getting your boxer the right fights -- but getting him the right fights at the right times - one after another. If your fighter doesn't have a World Title there's no reason for him to be sitting around waiting for a fight. You need to line up opponents 2 and 3 deep in case 1 opponent cancels -- you go straight to the next guy. A busy fighter is a sharp fighter and a happy fighter."

Patterson won the Heavyweight Title at 21 and Tyson won it at 20... They had the appropriate number of fights and experience... They just got it quickly.

Kalan wrote:Harrison was brought along WAY too slowly... They got chicken fat on him... That's as detrimental as moving a kid too fast.

Cus D'Amato said, "70% of a boxer's success is due to good matchmaking. It's not just getting your boxer the right fights -- but getting him the right fights at the right times - one after another. If your fighter doesn't have a World Title there's no reason for him to be sitting around waiting for a fight. You need to line up opponents 2 and 3 deep in case 1 opponent cancels -- you go straight to the next guy. A busy fighter is a sharp fighter and a happy fighter."

Patterson won the Heavyweight Title at 21 and Tyson won it at 20... They had the appropriate number of fights and experience... They just got it quickly.

Joe Mesi, another HW who never lost a fight.

And he couldn't box worth a crap either.. And like butterbean and Lamar Clark, he never got within sniffing range of a World Title.

So if you're going to compare Mesi to Anthony Joshua and Edwin Valero---both of whom could think and box well---you're full of manure as usual.

''Terrible'' Tim Witherspoon EASY the MOST TALENTED with out DEDICATION and a WITH OUT A BIG AMATEUR back ground should have been a HOF.

Kalan wrote:And he couldn't box worth a crap either.. And like butterbean and Lamar Clark, he never got within sniffing range of a World Title.

So if you're going to compare Mesi to Anthony Joshua and Edwin Valero---both of whom could think and box well---you're full of manure as usual.

Who did you train? All of these legends couldn't box worth a crap? You couldn't box your way out of a paper bag. yet, I pity you. Only three scenarios regarding you.

1) You're a mod having fun = 1% chance.

2) You're 65-70 as you claim, a rich philanthropist, who spent years at the apex of Boxing, watched the limited Ray robinson in person and carried your lifelong love for the sport to wasting your later years staying up all hours of the night on a message board to shit on Boxing and insult people= 2%(though the saddest of all)

3) You're a teenage, intelligent, nerd that has never seen a naked woman. You enjoy Boxing but have nobody to talk to about anything. Why not play tough guy expert on the internet and use your brain to calculate useless numbers and formulate hedging opinions on fighters off a database and their records to carry on a rouse of knowledge? No hate kalan, if you're the 2% and a lonely, senile man. I wish you comfort. If you're the 98% #3, don't off yourself, just get a grasp on life. Breaking through that proverbial nerd bubble won't happen for you on here. get a hooker, pop your cherry instead of zits. it will do wonders for your insecurities and passion for trolling message boards!= 97%

If it's the 1%, ban me.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:''Terrible'' Tim Witherspoon EASY the MOST TALENTED with out DEDICATION and a WITH OUT A BIG AMATEUR back ground should have been a HOF.

Hey, he's still more HOF than Gatti!

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Kalan wrote:And he couldn't box worth a crap either.. And like butterbean and Lamar Clark, he never got within sniffing range of a World Title.

So if you're going to compare Mesi to Anthony Joshua and Edwin Valero---both of whom could think and box well---you're full of manure as usual.

Who did you train? All of these legends couldn't box worth a crap? You couldn't box your way out of a paper bag. yet, I pity you. Only three scenarios regarding you.

1) You're a mod having fun = 1% chance.

2) You're 65-70 as you claim, a rich philanthropist, who spent years at the apex of Boxing, watched the limited Ray robinson in person and carried your lifelong love for the sport to wasting your later years staying up all hours of the night on a message board to poo on Boxing and insult people= 2%(though the saddest of all)

3) You're a teenage, intelligent, nerd that has never seen a naked woman. You enjoy Boxing but have nobody to talk to about anything. Why not play tough guy expert on the internet and use your brain to calculate useless numbers and formulate hedging opinions on fighters off a database and their records to carry on a rouse of knowledge? No hate kalan, if you're the 2% and a lonely, senile man. I wish you comfort. If you're the 98% #3, don't off yourself, just get a grasp on life. Breaking through that proverbial nerd bubble won't happen for you on here. get a hooker, pop your cherry instead of zits. it will do wonders for your insecurities and passion for trolling message boards!= 97%

If it's the 1%, ban me.

You're an idiot hater and baiter Saadoff ... and you're truly sad.. You're saying Joe Mesi was a legend and he was great? You've got nothing but manure between your ears.. Do yourself a favor and don't read or comment on my posts.. They're as far over your head as nuclear physics is to a cabbage.

I wouldn't read any of your posts if you weren't so quoted, virgin. Seriously, kid, summon your inner Wilt and try and get laid. There has to be a dude out there somewhere that will take your money.

On the subject of Mesi, it's interesting......I somewhat agree with you.....he wasn't a great, but for a small HW he did himself proud.

Where we apparently disagree is that I see Mesi and Valero in a similar category......two fellas who done good with limited means.


I wasn't saying Mesi was great.....I was saying he shares the Marciano cherry, just as Valero and Ottke. No more, no less.

Media was more proven than Valero.

BoxBuzz wrote:On the subject of Mesi, it's interesting......I somewhat agree with you.....he wasn't a great, but for a small HW he did himself proud.

Where we apparently disagree is that I see Mesi and Valero in a similar category......two fellas who done good with limited means.


I wasn't saying Mesi was great.....I was saying he shares the Marciano cherry, just as Valero and Ottke. No more, no less.

BuzzBox... If you can't see the difference between a crude, wide open target like Joe Mesi and a great boxer-puncher like Valero, you understand ZERO about Boxing. Vassily Jirov never beat a quality Heavyweight. He lost a cruiserweight fight to blown up Middleweight James Toney (a guy who could box pretty well) by a wide margin. Jirov was nearly stopped by Toney and lost by 8-points on 2 cards.. In contrast, Joe Mesi was beaten up and suffered two subdural hematomas against Jirov.. He should have been forced to retire because of beating he took.. Mesi was given a gift decision for that miserable effort and they limited it to 10-rounds. If it had been a 12-rounder Mesi would have been stopped in the 11th.

If you wonder why Mesi when 36-0 it's because he never fought anybody.. It wasn't because the top Heavyweights didn't want to fight him... He was kept away from dangerous Heavyweights because the couldn't defend himself.. Have you ever heard of Heavyweight David Rodriguez??? Do you think he can box??? He went 36-0 just like Joe Mesi -- but his backers knew as soon as they put DR in with anybody who could box or punch he'd get killed.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:''Terrible'' Tim Witherspoon EASY the MOST TALENTED with out DEDICATION and a WITH OUT A BIG AMATEUR back ground should have been a HOF.

Hey, he's still more HOF than Gatti!

Kalan wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Kalan wrote:And he couldn't box worth a crap either.. And like butterbean and Lamar Clark, he never got within sniffing range of a World Title.

So if you're going to compare Mesi to Anthony Joshua and Edwin Valero---both of whom could think and box well---you're full of manure as usual.

Who did you train? All of these legends couldn't box worth a crap? You couldn't box your way out of a paper bag. yet, I pity you. Only three scenarios regarding you.

1) You're a mod having fun = 1% chance.

2) You're 65-70 as you claim, a rich philanthropist, who spent years at the apex of Boxing, watched the limited Ray robinson in person and carried your lifelong love for the sport to wasting your later years staying up all hours of the night on a message board to poo on Boxing and insult people= 2%(though the saddest of all)

3) You're a teenage, intelligent, nerd that has never seen a naked woman. You enjoy Boxing but have nobody to talk to about anything. Why not play tough guy expert on the internet and use your brain to calculate useless numbers and formulate hedging opinions on fighters off a database and their records to carry on a rouse of knowledge? No hate kalan, if you're the 2% and a lonely, senile man. I wish you comfort. If you're the 98% #3, don't off yourself, just get a grasp on life. Breaking through that proverbial nerd bubble won't happen for you on here. get a hooker, pop your cherry instead of zits. it will do wonders for your insecurities and passion for trolling message boards!= 97%

If it's the 1%, ban me.

You're an idiot hater and baiter Saadoff ... and you're truly sad.. You're saying Joe Mesi was a legend and he was great? You've got nothing but manure between your ears.. Do yourself a favor and don't read or comment on my posts.. They're as far over your head as nuclear physics is to a cabbage.

Who did you train and why don't you produce a boxrec link to you professional record?