BoxRec

Crease wrote:

Tomasino wrote:Either get with the thread or get out you loser.

Well said Tom. If this guy does put up a top ten list compromising of todays fighters, then it may show him just how misguided he is.

Crease wrote:I've been called in to work today gents & i'm on again tomorrow.
I will tally everything up on my next earliest opportunity, which will probably be monday.

But please, keep going. The more member have their say, the more comprehensive the scoreboard.

APerno wrote:

Crease wrote:I've been called in to work today gents & i'm on again tomorrow.
I will tally everything up on my next earliest opportunity, which will probably be monday.

But please, keep going. The more member have their say, the more comprehensive the scoreboard.

I'm going to sneak in and edit my list while you're gone; I forgot to put Michael Dokes on my list.

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote:1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Joe Frazier
9. Rocky Marciano
10.Mike Tyson

So now Marciano beats Mike Tyson??? ... Didn't Tyson crush ATG Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks in 90 seconds??? Spinks was built up to 212 pounds of course, but it didn't matter.. And didn't Marciano fight most of his Title Defenses against Light Heavyweights??? He seemed to struggle with those old men too.

Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

Kalan wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:
So now Marciano beats Mike Tyson??? ... Didn't Tyson crush ATG Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks in 90 seconds??? Spinks was built up to 212 pounds of course, but it didn't matter.. And didn't Marciano fight most of his Title Defenses against Light Heavyweights??? He seemed to struggle with those old men too.

Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

Kalan wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:
So now Marciano beats Mike Tyson??? ... Didn't Tyson crush ATG Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks in 90 seconds??? Spinks was built up to 212 pounds of course, but it didn't matter.. And didn't Marciano fight most of his Title Defenses against Light Heavyweights??? He seemed to struggle with those old men too.

Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

APerno wrote:I saw one Sam Langford, and one Peter Jackson so far - but no Harry Wills (yet!) - For the record, it wasn't just Dempsey who ducked Wills, Jack Johnson wouldn't fight him either. (Johnson did fight Langford before he was champ but wouldn't give him a title shot later) - Wills and Langford had to fight each other over and over again because everyone was ducking both of them (17 times) that is absurd. - Wills might have gotten a Dempsey fight after Dempsey lost to Tunney (the first time,) (black fighters could get fights with big name white fighters so long as there was not title on the line) but Wills got dismantled by Sharkey, (he was at the end of a great career by then,) and Sharkey got the Dempsey fight instead.

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Controversial wrote:
Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

You can only rate people on who they fought, not who they didn't fight as you can't measure something that never happened.

Kalan wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Kalan wrote:
That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

You can only rate people on who they fought, not who they didn't fight as you can't measure something that never happened.

You can nick people for who they DIDN'T fight... They nick Patterson for avoiding Liston for so many years.. Why not nick Ali for fighting Leon Spinks instead of Larry Holmes??? ... I think Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson are nicked for avoiding Lewis for many years.. Joe Frazier didn't fight Lyle, Shavers, or Norton. I think those would have been interesting fights because Joe could be hit.. Marciano is nicked for not fighting Patterson.. I think there's more dangerous Heavyweights around today starting with Joshua and Ortiz.. I don't see a surge of top Heavyweights wanting to fight these guys and get knocked out.

Many reflexively put Ali on the top with no thought.. If you're rating based on who they fought I don't see great boxers who Ali fought except Holmes.

APerno wrote:I saw one Sam Langford, and one Peter Jackson so far - but no Harry Wills (yet!) - For the record, it wasn't just Dempsey who ducked Wills, Jack Johnson wouldn't fight him either. (Johnson did fight Langford before he was champ but wouldn't give him a title shot later) - Wills and Langford had to fight each other over and over again because everyone was ducking both of them (17 times) that is absurd. - Wills might have gotten a Dempsey fight after Dempsey lost to Tunney (the was at the end of a great career by then,) and Sharkey got the Dempsey fight instead.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:so he went to Hollywood where he made much more than he ever did boxing. .

Crease wrote:Current Scoreboard: (counted after 17 members voted)

1st - 166 pts Joe Louis
2nd - 165 pts Muhammad Ali
3rd - 108 pts Larry Holmes
4th - 100 pts George Foreman
5th - 80 pts Jack Johnson
6th - 68 pts Rocky Marciano
7th - 58 pts Lennox Lewis
8th - 56 pts Joe Frazier
9th - 53 pts Jack Dempsey
10th - 51 pts Evander Holyfield

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

APerno wrote:I saw one Sam Langford, and one Peter Jackson so far - but no Harry Wills (yet!) - For the record, it wasn't just Dempsey who ducked Wills, Jack Johnson wouldn't fight him either. (Johnson did fight Langford before he was champ but wouldn't give him a title shot later) - Wills and Langford had to fight each other over and over again because everyone was ducking both of them (17 times) that is absurd. - Wills might have gotten a Dempsey fight after Dempsey lost to Tunney (the was at the end of a great career by then,) and Sharkey got the Dempsey fight instead.

- Hope you didn't teach fairy tale history to your impressionable students.

Look, Jack mouthed a few politically correct platitudes about not defending against blacks because Rickard and Kearns wouldn't approve. He later left them to sign with Wills at least twice, but the limited national politics of the day killed off the fight, so he went to Hollywood where he made much more than he ever did boxing. The politics shifted and Rickard lured him back minus Kearns who was suing him.

At this point Tex offers Wills a title eliminator against Tunney that he declined, so the tourney went on without him. Wills had done enough to get the title shot straight up, so maybe his pride got the best of him, but revising history to fit an agenda is why Jack is needlessly savaged today.

Google Dempsey and Wills and find a dozen pics of their signing, history 101.

And for little Kalan, Dwayne Bobick was undefeated and much higher ranked than evangelista and Shavers who got title shots and higher than Tubby Lar. At that point in time remembering how Bobick turned Lar into mush at Olympic trials, Ali froze out Bobick.

Oh, and for Goldy, Foreman ruined Ali in 74. He generally had to go life and death every fight afterwards. He was prime 29 with two excellent tuneups prior to Frazier 1. In 72 he had his best year. You could look it up, but nah, that might pop your little bubble.

Yes, we were all upset over the Vietnam atrocity, but Ali won his victories in the highest court and had more fans than ever along with the moral righteousness of his beliefs. The layoff made him stronger, not ruined him. He could never run from Joe for 15 rds on his best day, so get over it, it happens, so how about his subsequent lax training, tubbiness, and reliance on being the dope on his ropadope as the explanation for such poor post Foreman performances.