Comparing Fighters from Different Eras

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I never heard about Marvin drinking during his career. He damn sure beat at least 8 top 10 guys before his title shot.

[Tomasino]

I never heard about Marvin drinking during his career. He damn sure beat at least 8 top 10 guys before his title shot.

I'm sure it was after the Hearns fight. Monroe x3 Briscoe, Seales x2 Finnegan x2 and Hart before his fight with Vito. He lost ground with his losses to Watts and Monroe but in the end, he was greater than them and he's got his money and marbles so all good. His boxing and footwork were amazing.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Colbert was highly rated when they fought. He beat superior opposition to Leonard pretitle. No question about that.

[Tomasino]

Colbert was highly rated when they fought. He beat superior opposition to Leonard pretitle. No question about that.

Leaonard has a gaudy record, Haglers is a gritty one. He was thrown in against Seales I think.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Colbert was highly rated when they fought. He beat superior opposition to Leonard pretitle. No question about that.

Leaonard has a gaudy record, Haglers is a gritty one. He was thrown in against Seales I think.

Watts and Monroe too. Leonard rates higher historically IMO but alp just gets nuts with it. Ray certainly didn't take an easy route, but pretending that ranzany,price, shields, viruet, etc.. was unprecedented is, to be kind, odd.

[Ambling Alp II]

I never heard about Marvin drinking during his career. He damn sure beat at least 8 top 10 guys before his title shot.

Before Hagler fought Antuofermo the first time, he had two wins over Top 10 opponents; Mike Colbert and Benny Briscoe. No one else were in the top 10 at the time Hagler beat them before the Antuofermo fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I never heard about Marvin drinking during his career. He damn sure beat at least 8 top 10 guys before his title shot.

Before Hagler fought Antuofermo the first time, he had two wins over Top 10 opponents; Mike Colbert and Benny Briscoe. No one else were in the top 10 at the time Hagler beat them before the Antuofermo fight.

Bullshit.

[Ambling Alp II]

Look it up.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Look it up.

No

[Ambling Alp II]

You're quite the debater.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Forgive me that I have better things to do than pull up rings ratings for every month and match them to fight dates to contradict your nonsense.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you produce all of your research.

[Ambling Alp II]

I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you produce all of your research.

The Boxing Register International Hall of Fame Official Record Book.
It lists fighter's opponents and if they were in the Top 10. For Hagler, the only ones listed that he defeated are Colbert and Briscoe.
(They do list Monroe being rated for his fight with Hagler and they also had Watts rated. However, Hagler lost both of those fights.)

Also checked Ring Magazine's Annual rankings online. http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... al_Ratings
Monroe, Hart, Seales, and Finnegan were not ranked at the end of the year prior to losing to Hagler.

It would not make any sense at all for any of them to suddenly jump into the rankings after not being ranked at the end of the previous year.
Hart was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and was knocked out in the first round earlier in the year that he fought Hagler.
Finnegan was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and the Hagler fight was his first of the year.
Seales and Monroe were ot ranked at the end of the year before fighting Halger and had not defeated anyone noteworthy earlier in the year that they fought Hagler.

[elmersalsa]

Marvelous fought guys that nobody wanted to fight. He did beat lots of top ten middleweight material. I don't know what Ambling Alp is claiming. Sugar Ray fought top ten guys? They certainly weren't the Bennie Briscoes, Willie Monroes and Bobby Watts of the world. It's not like Leonard went through a murderer's row of welterweight boxers. SMH!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you produce all of your research.

The Boxing Register International Hall of Fame Official Record Book.
It lists fighter's opponents and if they were in the Top 10. For Hagler, the only ones listed that he defeated are Colbert and Briscoe.
(They do list Monroe being rated for his fight with Hagler and they also had Watts rated. However, Hagler lost both of those fights.)

Also checked Ring Magazine's Annual rankings online. http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... al_Ratings
Monroe, Hart, Seales, and Finnegan were not ranked at the end of the year prior to losing to Hagler.

It would not make any sense at all for any of them to suddenly jump into the rankings after not being ranked at the end of the previous year.
Hart was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and was knocked out in the first round earlier in the year that he fought Hagler.
Finnegan was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and the Hagler fight was his first of the year.
Seales and Monroe were ot ranked at the end of the year before fighting Halger and had not defeated anyone noteworthy earlier in the year that they fought Hagler.

Ok, I'll give you that's an interesting tidbit. Let me ask you this, do you really think Leonard had a tougher road to the title than Marvin did?

[elmersalsa]

Of course he's going to say yes, what do you expect? Sugar Ray Leonard can't lose any type of arguments.

Eight top ten contenders at welterweight. Big deal. Like if they were the Murderers Row or something.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Of course he's going to say yes, what do you expect? Sugar Ray Leonard can't lose any type of arguments.

Eight top ten contenders at welterweight. Big deal. Like if they were the Murderers Row or something.

Just giving him an opportunity to be objective.

[cfang]

Marvelous fought guys that nobody wanted to fight. He did beat lots of top ten middleweight material. I don't know what Ambling Alp is claiming. Sugar Ray fought top ten guys? They certainly weren't the Bennie Briscoes, Willie Monroes and Bobby Watts of the world. It's not like Leonard went through a murderer's row of welterweight boxers. SMH!

Not to mention kevin finnegan who was a really tough fighter. Hagler's road to the title was tougher than leonard's full stop surely. Both great fighters though off.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Leonard was the money guy, could you imagine him being #1 for years without a title shot?

[elmersalsa]

Leonard was the money guy, could you imagine him being #1 for years without a title shot?

That would have been a world record achievement.

[Ambling Alp II]

I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you produce all of your research.

The Boxing Register International Hall of Fame Official Record Book.
It lists fighter's opponents and if they were in the Top 10. For Hagler, the only ones listed that he defeated are Colbert and Briscoe.
(They do list Monroe being rated for his fight with Hagler and they also had Watts rated. However, Hagler lost both of those fights.)

Also checked Ring Magazine's Annual rankings online. http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... al_Ratings
Monroe, Hart, Seales, and Finnegan were not ranked at the end of the year prior to losing to Hagler.

It would not make any sense at all for any of them to suddenly jump into the rankings after not being ranked at the end of the previous year.
Hart was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and was knocked out in the first round earlier in the year that he fought Hagler.
Finnegan was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and the Hagler fight was his first of the year.
Seales and Monroe were ot ranked at the end of the year before fighting Halger and had not defeated anyone noteworthy earlier in the year that they fought Hagler.

Ok, I'll give you that's an interesting tidbit. Let me ask you this, do you really think Leonard had a tougher road to the title than Marvin did?

Well, I guess I should give you some credit for begrudgingly admitting that Hagler did not beat as many Top 10 opponents as Leonard before getting a title shot.
(Wasn't exactly and apology though, was it?)
However I think it is more than just a tidbit; I think what Leonard's did pre-title shot is underrated and what Hagler did is a little overrated.

I'm not saying that Monroe, Finnegan, Seales, and Hart weren't good fighters. They were. However, it is not that hard to pick holes in their records.
Same with fighters that Leonard beat such as Ranzany, Price, Shields etc. Certainly not legends, but pretty decent fighters.

You ask if Leonard had a tougher road to the title? Well in the sense that Leonard got a shot in less than three years and Hagler six, of course not. It probably seemed like forever for Hagler. (To a certain extent that is his own for for losing twice and having a draw.)

However, look compare the opponents that Leonard fought in those not quite three years before he fought for the title. Did he already deserve a title shot based on whom he had beat? Yes. He was clearly the top contender.

Take a look at who Hagler fight in that period of time. Really nobody but Seales in his first three years. There was no way that he deserved a title shot so early.
Leonard was beating these guys with a lot less experience than Hagler had when he finally starting fighting better competition.

Then look who they each fought for the title:
Leonard had to beat Benitez, a truly great fighter.
Hagler only had to Vito Antuofermo.

Benitez was a much, much better fighter than Antuofermo.

[Ambling Alp II]

Spare me the anti-Leonard BS.
So Leonard beat Hearns, then was afraid of him, but then fought him again. Yeah, that makes sense.

He cherry picked, and made weight stips? He fought Hagler at 160. Hagler had been that weight virtually his whole career. Leonard never weighed that much for a fight in his life. Why isn't Hagler accused of weight stips or cherry picking for not fighting at a lower weight?

At the end of the day, the other guy doesn't have to fight Leonard at whatever weight or stips if he doesn't want to.

Leonard beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he ever got a title shot. Duran did not do that. Hearns did not do that. Hagler did not do that. Who has done that since?
In less than a two period of time, he had four fights against ATGs.
Off for three years, he moved up in weight to win the middleweight title.
The guy went out of way to fight the best. Ridiculous to say he was cherry picking.

That is the problem with a fighters more rabid fans. They immediately label anyone who doesn't worship their heroes as " anti ", particularly if the other person is simply telling the truth.

Yes Leonard did cherry pick, and yes he did wait until he thought Hearns was done, and yes he did put a weight stip of 163 on Tommy even though they fought for a 168 title. The same way he put the weight stip on Lalonde for the mythical Light Heavy title that Leonard immediately surrendered in case he had to fight a " live " 175 pounder.

Similarly he watched and waited until the decline in Hagler was so obvious a blind man could see it. The clue is in Leonard's own words in November 82 in front of Hagler. " There is nothing wrong with my eye, I just don't want to fight anymore. " I suppose you will claim it is simply coincidence that in 82 Marvin battered Lee and Obelmejias in a combined 6 rounds, and nothing to do with Leonard deciding he didn't want to fight anymore.

Similarly he wanted less than nothing to do with Hearns at 154, this wasn't the weight drained version SRL finally got the better of in 81. This was a guy who could box or bang at the higher weight, which is why he waited until 89 to get in with him again.

You are "anti" if you are not treating him as you would someone else.
The "weight stip" was 164 for the Hearns fight. This was certainly closer to Hearn's ideal weight than Leonard's.
Hearns was weight drained when Leonard beat in 1981? Yeah, you aren't anti Leonard. No crybaby excuse there.

He waited for the decline for Hagler. Yeah that makes sense. Leonard obviously knew in 1982 that Hagler in five years would be severely declined, yet somehow still be the champion in 1987. So he retired right then. Obviously the best way train for a fight five years in advance would have been to fight just one time in that entire time and have just about no experience at middleweight. What a master plan.

Yet oddly enough the fight was considered a joke by so many people with Leonard expected to get crushed.

Yes I am sure that Leonard was shaking in boots after Hagler's big wins over the legendary Caveman Lee and Obelmejas. (Wasn't Frank "The Animal Fletcher" available?) That's why Leonard retired! Nailed it.

[Tony1244]

Wow, that's a little anti-Leonard.

Regarding his "I don't want to fight anymore" quote, any fighter has the right to retire. Leonard chose to comeback.

Howard and Finch were no HOFers but Howard was his first fight back. Hagler fought Tony Sibson who isn't in The Hall either. Oblemjamas, Hagler fought twice.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Wow, that's a little anti-Leonard.

Regarding his "I don't want to fight anymore" quote, any fighter has the right to retire. Leonard chose to comeback.

Howard and Finch were no HOFers but Howard was his first fight back. Hagler fought Tony Sibson who isn't in The Hall either. Oblemjamas, Hagler fought twice.

Obel was damn good. Strong.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The Boxing Register International Hall of Fame Official Record Book.
It lists fighter's opponents and if they were in the Top 10. For Hagler, the only ones listed that he defeated are Colbert and Briscoe.
(They do list Monroe being rated for his fight with Hagler and they also had Watts rated. However, Hagler lost both of those fights.)

Also checked Ring Magazine's Annual rankings online. http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... al_Ratings
Monroe, Hart, Seales, and Finnegan were not ranked at the end of the year prior to losing to Hagler.

It would not make any sense at all for any of them to suddenly jump into the rankings after not being ranked at the end of the previous year.
Hart was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and was knocked out in the first round earlier in the year that he fought Hagler.
Finnegan was not ranked at the end of the year before fighting Hagler and the Hagler fight was his first of the year.
Seales and Monroe were ot ranked at the end of the year before fighting Halger and had not defeated anyone noteworthy earlier in the year that they fought Hagler.

Ok, I'll give you that's an interesting tidbit. Let me ask you this, do you really think Leonard had a tougher road to the title than Marvin did?

Well, I guess I should give you some credit for begrudgingly admitting that Hagler did not beat as many Top 10 opponents as Leonard before getting a title shot.
(Wasn't exactly and apology though, was it?)
However I think it is more than just a tidbit; I think what Leonard's did pre-title shot is underrated and what Hagler did is a little overrated.

I'm not saying that Monroe, Finnegan, Seales, and Hart weren't good fighters. They were. However, it is not that hard to pick holes in their records.
Same with fighters that Leonard beat such as Ranzany, Price, Shields etc. Certainly not legends, but pretty decent fighters.

You ask if Leonard had a tougher road to the title? Well in the sense that Leonard got a shot in less than three years and Hagler six, of course not. It probably seemed like forever for Hagler. (To a certain extent that is his own for for losing twice and having a draw.)

However, look compare the opponents that Leonard fought in those not quite three years before he fought for the title. Did he already deserve a title shot based on whom he had beat? Yes. He was clearly the top contender.

Take a look at who Hagler fight in that period of time. Really nobody but Seales in his first three years. There was no way that he deserved a title shot so early.
Leonard was beating these guys with a lot less experience than Hagler had when he finally starting fighting better competition.

Then look who they each fought for the title:
Leonard had to beat Benitez, a truly great fighter.
Hagler only had to Vito Antuofermo.

Benitez was a much, much better fighter than Antuofermo.

Lol at apology. No reason for that. I never said Leonard was undeserving, hagler just faced tougher opposition. He was ranked #1 and ducked for 2 or 3 of those years you're talking about before the robbery against Vito. Yes, benitez was better than Antuofermo, though that has nothing to do with the discussion. I guess even in admitting hagler fought tougher fighters you gotta shine up ray with love.