BoxRec

Why was Erdei's title vacated? Because he had one fight that wasn't at LHW?

Canelo also fought in another division, and people are still treating him as lineal MW champ. If you use the 'no lower limit' argument, you also have to acknowledge that Ward beat Dawson first, and should thus be lineal LHW champ rather than Stevenson.

crusader wrote:Why was Erdei's title vacated? Because he had one fight that wasn't at LHW?

I'm sure that's the answer given. The real answer is that the mighty lineal title was outside the US the whole time Jones was in the division. They wanted a bigger name, because lineal is really just about people that want to be snobby historians at this point. It's completely pointless in today's sport, virtually no fighter is ever undisputed and basically they try and establish lineage off of the opinions of people that don't know shit about Boxing history.

IDGAF

Counter-puncher wrote:IDGAF

MachoTime wrote:

Boxing Prospect wrote:

TheDarkDestroyer wrote:Canelo is the lineal middleweight champion of the world. Adonis Steohenson is still also the lineal light heavyweight champion.

Explain how Adonis got that crown...a case could be made for Ward...albeit one that's convoluted...

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/pastchp.htm

So a website saying Erdei vacated makes it fact? And then Pascal gets it based on what?

Erdei fought ONE fight above the weight (even then it was only 2% over the limit) and he immediately went back down. If that's vacating a lineal title then I suspect we'd have some very peculiar lines. Erdei never lost the lineal title until he lost to Grachev who then lost to Rodriguez, who lost to Ward (remember Rodriguez FAILED to make the Super Middleweight limit there so essentially fought as a Light Heavyweight).

Ward at least beat the man who beat the man who... Whilst the Pascal version of the title "just appeared" from beating Dawson, not from "beating the man"...or "following the line"

Tanzio wrote:

IKSRTFO wrote:

boxing_rocks wrote:
Adonis fights at LHW. Canelo ducked the most dangerous opponent and moved to 154.

He has a year before they take it away from him. If you remember, Floyd was the lineal 154 champion while only fighting there every two years.

Another great example of why lineal championships are worthless these days.

Got to agree with you there.

Canelo won't fight the top 5 at 154.
Canelo won't fight the top 5 at 160.

Why are 50k people watching this guy?
Why are people buying his PPVs?

Recent middleweight lineage: Hopkins -> Taylor -> Pavlik -> Martinez -> Cotto -> Alvarez

GB have a severe case of AMNESIA they forgot how he put the WBC Title as far away from himself as possible so he didn't have to face GGG they forgot how Mayweather made him look worst then any opponent Mayweather fought in yonk's it was the MOST ONE-SIDED SUPPOSED SUPERFIGHT IN HISTORY
they [GB] just cannot bring them self to remember the very debatable dec against Lara how a blown up Jr Welterweight who isn't even the BEST at his weight class in Amir Khan out box the P4P best in Canelo until he caught up with the smarter little man we all knew what that result was going to be but I must say I didn't expect Khan to expose Canelo as much as he did LEGEND'S like SRR/Greb/Ketchel etc etc would be turning in their grave's seeing how GB are degrading the Middleweight Title and BOXING OVER-ALL they [GB] are oxygen thief's

Lackeos wrote:Recent middleweight lineage: Hopkins -> Taylor -> Pavlik -> Martinez -> Cotto -> Alvarez

Absolute confirmation that "middleweight lineage" holds no weight whatsoever.

crusader wrote:Why was Erdei's title vacated? Because he had one fight that wasn't at LHW?

Canelo also fought in another division, and people are still treating him as lineal MW champ. If you use the 'no lower limit' argument, you also have to acknowledge that Ward beat Dawson first, and should thus be lineal LHW champ rather than Stevenson.

Wifhout going to check it out I'm fairly sure Ward-Dawson was at 168, so we really don't need to have this conversation do we?

So why did Erdei cease to be lineal champ without losing his title in the ring? Because a single bout wasnt fought at 175? If that's the case, why is Canelo still MW champ even though he just fought for a JMW title?

crusader wrote:So why did Erdei cease to be lineal champ without losing his title in the ring? Because a single bout wasnt fought at 175? If that's the case, why is Canelo still MW champ even though he just fought for a JMW title?

Masochist

Not bothering to read the rest of the posts, I can at least say this. No, Canelo is not the lineal champion of anything.

crusader wrote:So why did Erdei cease to be lineal champ without losing his title in the ring? Because a single bout wasnt fought at 175? If that's the case, why is Canelo still MW champ even though he just fought for a JMW title?

Are you under the impression I run that website? A single bout was fought over 175, clearly. Though I don't really remember much of Zsolt's career so I've not much of an opinion on it.

Badhusker wrote:Not bothering to read the rest of the posts, I can at least say this. No, Canelo is not the lineal champion of anything.

Fascinating insight, do the Middle East next, I'd love to know what you think of that.

Right, a bout was fought over 175, so the difference between Erdei and Canelo is that Canelo stayed under the MW limit. Why does that matter though?

If we use that difference to justify Canelo keeping his lineal status while Erdei lost his, aren't we going by the 'no lower limit to weight classes' principle, and hence don't we have to acknowledge that a bout between two 168 pound men can still count as a LHW title fight if one is champion?

Just had a look on his Wiki page and Erdei retired in 2010. I take it you remember as little about his career as I do, Crusader.

crusader wrote:Right, a bout was fought over 175, so the difference between Erdei and Canelo is that Canelo stayed under the MW limit. Why does that matter though?

If we use that difference to justify Canelo keeping his lineal status while Erdei lost his, aren't we going by the 'no lower limit to weight classes' principle, and hence don't we have to acknowledge that a bout between two 168 pound men can still count as a LHW title fight if one is champion?

That is beyond stupidity, I can't even be arsed to explain why that's idiotic.

TheDarkDestroyer wrote:

crusader wrote:Right, a bout was fought over 175, so the difference between Erdei and Canelo is that Canelo stayed under the MW limit. Why does that matter though?

If we use that difference to justify Canelo keeping his lineal status while Erdei lost his, aren't we going by the 'no lower limit to weight classes' principle, and hence don't we have to acknowledge that a bout between two 168 pound men can still count as a LHW title fight if one is champion?

That is beyond stupidity, I can't even be arsed to explain why that's idiotic.

Fascinating insight. Do the Middle East next.

crusader wrote:

TheDarkDestroyer wrote:

crusader wrote:Right, a bout was fought over 175, so the difference between Erdei and Canelo is that Canelo stayed under the MW limit. Why does that matter though?

If we use that difference to justify Canelo keeping his lineal status while Erdei lost his, aren't we going by the 'no lower limit to weight classes' principle, and hence don't we have to acknowledge that a bout between two 168 pound men can still count as a LHW title fight if one is champion?

That is beyond stupidity, I can't even be arsed to explain why that's idiotic.

Fascinating insight. Do the Middle East next.

Do you really want me to explain why a fight in a lower weight class can't be for the lineal title of another weight class. You're being a prick, and I don't really care enough to argue with you. Erdei retired and gave up his claim, it had nothing to do with his moving weight classes so I guess you should try harder. I wish I cared enough to get as upset about this as you, but I don't, I just don't like revisionists trying to take titles off people cause they don't like who he has fought. Canelo beat the man who beat the man, until he retires, loses it in the ring or says he's never fighting at middleweight again he will be the lineal champion. Get over it.

TheDarkDestroyer wrote:

crusader wrote:

TheDarkDestroyer wrote:
That is beyond stupidity, I can't even be arsed to explain why that's idiotic.

Fascinating insight. Do the Middle East next.

Do you really want me to explain why a fight in a lower weight class can't be for the lineal title of another weight class. You're being a prick, and I don't really care enough to argue with you. Erdei retired and gave up his claim, it had nothing to do with his moving weight classes so I guess you should try harder. I wish I cared enough to get as upset about this as you, but I don't, I just don't like revisionists trying to take titles off people cause they don't like who he has fought. Canelo beat the man who beat the man, until he retires, loses it in the ring or says he's never fighting at middleweight again he will be the lineal champion. Get over it.

This is like the dentist office scene in Little Shop Of Horrors

TheDarkDestroyer wrote:

crusader wrote:

TheDarkDestroyer wrote:
That is beyond stupidity, I can't even be arsed to explain why that's idiotic.

Fascinating insight. Do the Middle East next.

Do you really want me to explain why a fight in a lower weight class can't be for the lineal title of another weight class. You're being a prick, and I don't really care enough to argue with you. Erdei retired and gave up his claim, it had nothing to do with his moving weight classes so I guess you should try harder. I wish I cared enough to get as upset about this as you, but I don't, I just don't like revisionists trying to take titles off people cause they don't like who he has fought. Canelo beat the man who beat the man, until he retires, loses it in the ring or says he's never fighting at middleweight again he will be the lineal champion. Get over it.

Okay, so if Erdei didn't lose his title for moving up and fighting above 175, then it's all good and in line with my views on the matter. I have seen people argue that moving to a higher division should be treated differently than moving to a lower division, however, because in one case a fighter is outside the limits of a division (and according to some should thus have their title vacated), and in another case he is within the division's limits since there is no lower limit (so they should keep the title). In that situation though, if someone accepts that there is no lower limit on weight divisions, then Dawson-Ward could still count as a LHW title fight, and hence Ward could be considered lineal champ.

I really don't see how that thought process is so idiotic. And, by the way, considering you're the one sarcastically criticizing posts, calling me a prick, and accusing me of posting idiotic things (keep in mind that I wasn't initially addressing you), I think you're the one getting most upset about this. Tough day maybe, friend?

So you weren't talking to me in that post about Zsolt Erdei? Who were you talking too then? As you'd just asked me about him, I'd just replied and no one else mentioned him.

I think it's treated differently because usually a fighter moves up through necessity rather than just for fun, though it isn't all that uncommon these days but was more so in the past.

Ward can't count as a LHW fight, the SMW titles were on the line, and Dawson was forced to weigh below 168.

Ladies and gentlemen!! Bill Murray and Steve Martin at their finest.