If Riddick Bowe stayed in shape. . . Could he have been great?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Bowe would dominate Mike inside. Tyson was best at midrange and he needs to get by the jab, bounce in and out, and no go all the way in. Tactical hell from the opening bell. Certainly a punchers chance, but likely a drubbing for Tyson. On his best day he might win 3 rounds combined against bowe/holyfield from their first fight.

[man]

Bowe would dominate Mike inside. Tyson was best at midrange and he needs to get by the jab, bounce in and out, and no go all the way in. Tactical hell from the opening bell. Certainly a punchers chance, but likely a drubbing for Tyson. On his best day he might win 3 rounds combined against bowe/holyfield from their first fight.

i would give prime mike more
credit, but i respect your points.

[Esquire]

Prime Bowe beats prime Tyson. I would give Tyson a very real puncher's chance, but short of that I think Bowe beats him down and stops him before ten rounds are complete. Even a prime Tyson looked for the path of least resistance when things got difficult. Usually he would allow his opponent to clinch and hold, It was obvious.

[keithmoonhangover]

Even a prime Tyson looked for the path of least resistance when things got difficult.

Sorry, but Tyson unified all three title and fought the lineal champion. He also fought an unbeaten Olympic champion (Tyrell Biggs).

Bowe defended his titles against a completely shot Dokes and Jesse Ferguson, Gave up a title and refused to fight and an unbeaten Olympic champion.

[man]

Even a prime Tyson looked for the path of least resistance when things got difficult.

Sorry, but Tyson unified all three title and fought the lineal champion. He also fought an unbeaten Olympic champion (Tyrell Biggs).

Bowe defended his titles against a completely shot Dokes and Jesse Ferguson, Gave up a title and refused to fight and an unbeaten Olympic champion.

i think he meant less career management
but what tyson did within a bout. so when
things don't get according to plan A he
would go too straight in, trying too hard
and too predictable.

but maybe i got esquire wrong.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Tyson certainly had a greater career, though Bowe's two best wins are far better than any of Mike's.

[Esquire]

Even a prime Tyson looked for the path of least resistance when things got difficult.

Sorry, but Tyson unified all three title and fought the lineal champion. He also fought an unbeaten Olympic champion (Tyrell Biggs).

Bowe defended his titles against a completely shot Dokes and Jesse Ferguson, Gave up a title and refused to fight and an unbeaten Olympic champion.

i think he meant less career management
but what tyson did within a bout. so when
things don't get according to plan A he
would go too straight in, trying too hard
and too predictable.

but maybe i got esquire wrong.

You got that right. I meant that when Tyson got frustrated he did an awful lot of holding, and worse, he allowed his opponent to hold him without trying to hard to prevent the slowdown in the action. It was what Teddy Atlas referred to as "the silent contract" between fighters. Tyson did this often, usually against bigger opponents if he couldn't knock them out quickly. This type of falliing into a clinch would get him knocked out against a terrific inside fighter like Bowe,

[jbizzle20]

It didn't matter what shape he was in. As soon as a big guy with a jab got to him, he was screwed. He was out of shape and got killed by Golota the first time then got killed again by Golota, despite being in shape, the second time. He might have had a remote shot against pre-Steward Lewis but not after Steward took over. Even then, I doubt Bowe had much of a chance against Lewis in 1993. Bowe couldn't jab to save his life. That basically negated any size advantage he had. He's living proof that you need more than physical ability to be great.

[man]

Tyson certainly had a greater career, though Bowe's two best wins are far better than any of Mike's.

tyson is very difficult to judge. whenever
i think about his career i enter substantial
cognitive dissonance.

in the end i think he was both extremely
fast and very strong, which is a rare
combination. plus he had a strong chin.
of course he did lack some centimeters
in height to have an even playing field
with the heavy ATGs.

his downfall within the ring was him giving
up on speed and fighting on power only.
not what gus had in mind for him.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Sorry, but Tyson unified all three title and fought the lineal champion. He also fought an unbeaten Olympic champion (Tyrell Biggs).

Bowe defended his titles against a completely shot Dokes and Jesse Ferguson, Gave up a title and refused to fight and an unbeaten Olympic champion.

i think he meant less career management
but what tyson did within a bout. so when
things don't get according to plan A he
would go too straight in, trying too hard
and too predictable.

but maybe i got esquire wrong.

You got that right. I meant that when Tyson got frustrated he did an awful lot of holding, and worse, he allowed his opponent to hold him without trying to hard to prevent the slowdown in the action. It was what Teddy Atlas referred to as "the silent contract" between fighters. Tyson did this often, usually against bigger opponents if he couldn't knock them out quickly. This type of falliing into a clinch would get him knocked out against a terrific inside fighter like Bowe,

A lot of that was due to his inept inside game.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Tyson certainly had a greater career, though Bowe's two best wins are far better than any of Mike's.

tyson is very difficult to judge. whenever
i think about his career i enter substantial
cognitive dissonance.

in the end i think he was both extremely
fast and very strong, which is a rare
combination. plus he had a strong chin.
of course he did lack some centimeters
in height to have an even playing field
with the heavy ATGs.

his downfall within the ring was him giving
up on speed and fighting on power only.
not what gus had in mind for him.

His biggest downfall was his low ring iq.

[keithmoonhangover]

Tyson certainly had a greater career, though Bowe's two best wins are far better than any of Mike's.

tyson is very difficult to judge. whenever
i think about his career i enter substantial
cognitive dissonance.

in the end i think he was both extremely
fast and very strong, which is a rare
combination. plus he had a strong chin.
of course he did lack some centimeters
in height to have an even playing field
with the heavy ATGs.

his downfall within the ring was him giving
up on speed and fighting on power only.
not what gus had in mind for him.

His biggest downfall was his low ring iq.

Just playing Devi's advocate, but what did Bowe change using his ring IQ when fights weren't going well?

[man]

Tyson certainly had a greater career, though Bowe's two best wins are far better than any of Mike's.

tyson is very difficult to judge. whenever
i think about his career i enter substantial
cognitive dissonance.

in the end i think he was both extremely
fast and very strong, which is a rare
combination. plus he had a strong chin.
of course he did lack some centimeters
in height to have an even playing field
with the heavy ATGs.

his downfall within the ring was him giving
up on speed and fighting on power only.
not what gus had in mind for him.

His biggest downfall was his low ring iq.

of course he was never really ring smart,
but i felt he was much better in this regard
before hybris had set in. at least he was not
totally clueless if there was no timber in
sight within two.

[man]

Just playing Devi's advocate, but what did Bowe change using his ring IQ when fights weren't going well?

at least he was not as clueless as mike,
who seemed totally unprepared if someone
could chew his leather. it was not like he
didn't hit evander, but the guy just remained
upright. bowe indeed seemed very different
in this respect.

tyson's main problem was that he believed
the hype, figured himself not only invincible,
but thought he would ko everyone within
three max. don't think there were many in
history who had that much hybris, the only
other one that comes to mind is 40 0 george
foreman.

i could imagine without the hybris he could
have been ring smart. when you listen to his
early interviews, he seemed quite interested,
informed and eager to learn from former
generations. he was no peter mckneeley.
what is funny though is that he always showed
up in relative decent shape ...

anyways, mike tyson will always be one of
the most intriguing stories in boxing history.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

tyson is very difficult to judge. whenever
i think about his career i enter substantial
cognitive dissonance.

in the end i think he was both extremely
fast and very strong, which is a rare
combination. plus he had a strong chin.
of course he did lack some centimeters
in height to have an even playing field
with the heavy ATGs.

his downfall within the ring was him giving
up on speed and fighting on power only.
not what gus had in mind for him.

His biggest downfall was his low ring iq.

Just playing Devi's advocate, but what did Bowe change using his ring IQ when fights weren't going well?

I wasn't implying bowe had a high ability to adapt. Just a massive offensive skillset to maneuver through. if Mike could have fought inside well with his tools he would have been brutal.

[BoxBuzz]

Cognitive Dissonance? You?

Saad? Say it aint so!

[Syntax Error]

His biggest downfall was his low ring iq.

Just playing Devi's advocate, but what did Bowe change using his ring IQ when fights weren't going well?

I wasn't implying bowe had a high ability to adapt. Just a massive offensive skillset to maneuver through. if Mike could have fought inside well with his tools he would have been brutal.

Spot on.

It's bizarre that a short guy with short arms was useless at in-fighting & conversely, that a 6' 5" guy with long arms was a master at it.

[man]

Cognitive Dissonance? You?

Saad? Say it aint so!

ain't so. it was me ...

[BitPlayer]

If he had fought Lennox lewis rather than ducking him and throwing the WBC belt in the trash it would have been an interesting encounter, if he had beaten Lewis he could well have become a all time great. But dodging lewis just showed his worth, imo.

Fair. If the Bowe of his first 34 fights shows up, I think he could have beaten Lewis. But if the Bowe of Holyfield II or later shows up, I think Lewis wins.

He was a good fighter no doubt but his legacy was dodging Lewis, maybe he knew Lewis would knock him out.

I bet he thought he'd smash Lewis and wanted to. It was probably his promoters that stopped it.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Does a bear shart in the woods?

[keithmoonhangover]

Fair. If the Bowe of his first 34 fights shows up, I think he could have beaten Lewis. But if the Bowe of Holyfield II or later shows up, I think Lewis wins.

He was a good fighter no doubt but his legacy was dodging Lewis, maybe he knew Lewis would knock him out.

I bet he thought he'd smash Lewis and wanted to. It was probably his promoters that stopped it.

I talked to Bowe about it a couple of months back and he said it was Rock Neuman's idea. In Bowe's words, "He thought we were bigger than the WBC." He can blame Neuman, but ultimately, it's the boxers decision, it's his signature on the contract. He can't turn back time, so his legacy will always be tarnished by him ducking Lewis.

[Syntax Error]

He was a good fighter no doubt but his legacy was dodging Lewis, maybe he knew Lewis would knock him out.

I bet he thought he'd smash Lewis and wanted to. It was probably his promoters that stopped it.

I talked to Bowe about it a couple of months back and he said it was Rock Neuman's idea. In Bowe's words, "He thought we were bigger than the WBC." He can blame Neuman, but ultimately, it's the boxers decision, it's his signature on the contract. He can't turn back time, so his legacy will always be tarnished by him ducking Lewis.

Spot on.

The Bowe/Lewis non fight should serve as a lesson to all fighters & their managers who think they need to hype & build fights that don't need building.

If a fight is hot, do it.

If the fight turns out to be a barnstormer, have a rematch down the line & cash-in that way.

You never know what is going to happen as Riddick Bowe found out to his cost.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Luv them what ifs, like what if Big Dummy's mammy had been his pappy? Which end would he have been born out of? Hint: two choices.

Yeah, he shoulda, coulda, woulda beat all those great fighters but for his Fat Oafery getting in the way, so he didn't, and at any rate, the Lewis result a clear KTFO humiliation. But he coulda, shoulda, woulda been great in Fat Oafery World, high praise indeed in Fat Oafery world!

Thanks again guys.

[Counter-puncher]

you're such a pudendum, Broughton

[Bricks]

Boxing & life in general is full of what ifs & could/should haves.

Bowe should be an ATG & sadly, because of mismanagement & poor discipline, he never will be.

I guess his fridge was more powerful than his desire & dedication to his profession: let that be Riddick Bowe's legacy.

The fridge may have been his best friend.

When he declined the fridge and went on dick gregorys guided juice diet and turned up in the superficially best shape of his life vs golota.......that's when he overnight became a busted flush at 26-27....

In hindsight its also clear he was coming out on top with golota due to his incredible heart and the foul pole panicked and cheated to get himself out of a knockout loss

I think Bowe is one of those who could have been great.

I don't really think he ducked lewis. That's an old debate. He may have avoided him early on. But once he was ready to meet Lewis blew it vs McCall and spent a few years in the wilderness.

PS: dick Gregory is a great man just not best advised to be a nutritionist to a HW boxer