The MIDDLEWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[crl333]

1. Greb
2. Hagler
3. Robinson
4. Monzon
5. Langford
6. Jones Jr
7. Ketchel
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Walker
10. Hopkins

[Flump]

This really does not make sense to take into account with regard to the rules.
Golovkin

GGG is clearly the World's top Middleweight... Robinson got beaten in his 1st Middleweight Title Defense and pretty regular after that -- so it wasn't clear he was the best... SRR was 3-3 in MIddleweight Title Defenses with 2 KO wins... Golovkin is 17-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses with 17 KO wins.

Out of interest, is there anyone that Golovkin has fought who you think would beat Sugar Ray Robinson?

[APerno]

1. Monzon
2. Flowers
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. La Motta
6. Hagler
7. Fitzsimmons
8. Ketchell
9. Benvenuti
10. Walker

On his best night Rocky Graziano could have beaten them all, except maybe Monzon; but Rocky had so few 'best nights.'

[Tomasino]

1. Monzon
2. Flowers
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. La Motta
6. Hagler
7. Fitzsimmons
8. Ketchell
9. Benvenuti
10. Walker

On his best night Rocky Graziano could have beaten them all, except maybe Monzon; but Rocky had so few 'best nights.'

Why is Flowers so high?

[APerno]

1. Monzon
2. Flowers
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. La Motta
6. Hagler
7. Fitzsimmons
8. Ketchell
9. Benvenuti
10. Walker

On his best night Rocky Graziano could have beaten them all, except maybe Monzon; but Rocky had so few 'best nights.'

Why is Flowers so high?

Questionable for sure - but he beat Greb twice (and there is no such thing as 'Greb past his prime') - got jobbed against Micky Walker (by most accounts) - jut seems to me that everyone will have Greb high on their list, but Flowers could go toe to toe with Greb winning two of three; again, I realize it is questionable but what else could Flowers have done other than beat Greb?

[Tomasino]

Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Charley Burley
Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Stanley Ketchel
Tommy Ryan
Dick Tiger
Freddie Steele

[Tomasino]

1. Monzon
2. Flowers
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. La Motta
6. Hagler
7. Fitzsimmons
8. Ketchell
9. Benvenuti
10. Walker

On his best night Rocky Graziano could have beaten them all, except maybe Monzon; but Rocky had so few 'best nights.'

Why is Flowers so high?

Questionable for sure - but he beat Greb twice (and there is no such thing as 'Greb past his prime') - got jobbed against Micky Walker (by most accounts) - jut seems to me that everyone will have Greb high on their list, but Flowers could go toe to toe with Greb winning two of three; again, I realize it is questionable but what else could Flowers have done other than beat Greb?

Well he beat a blind Greb in his last bouts, most accounts saying Greb was robbed. Undoubtedly a great fighter though

[Keko]

Why is Flowers so high?

Questionable for sure - but he beat Greb twice (and there is no such thing as 'Greb past his prime') - got jobbed against Micky Walker (by most accounts) - jut seems to me that everyone will have Greb high on their list, but Flowers could go toe to toe with Greb winning two of three; again, I realize it is questionable but what else could Flowers have done other than beat Greb?

Well he beat a blind Greb in his last bouts, most accounts saying Greb was robbed. Undoubtedly a great fighter though

Yes Greb was robbed but unfortunately it has been the last fights before the tragic death.

I was surprised that some do not have the SRR on the list because with Greb, Monzon, Walker,Ketchel and Hagler he's always on all serious lists.

It is interesting to see such a difference of opinion.

[APerno]

Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Charley Burley
Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Stanley Ketchel
Tommy Ryan
Dick Tiger
Freddie Steele

I can't see Hagler beating Monzon - interesting. Both great technicians (boxer-punchers), both great defensive fighters; great chins - but height and jab to Monzon and with that a 15U - me thinks anyway.

[Keko]

My 10
1.Harry Greb
2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Stanley Ketchel
4.Carlos Monzon
5.Marvin Hagler
6.Mickey Walker
7.Bernard Hopkins
8.Tony Zale
9. Bob Fitzzsimmons
10.Tiger Flowers

[Seamus]

1.Harry Greb
2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Mike Gibbons
4.Stanley Ketchel
5.Marvin Hagler
6.Mickey Walker
7.Carlos Monzon
8.Kid McCoy
9.Freddie Steele
10.Holman Williams

[pound per pound]

Not an easy group for just ten.

1 ) Greb
2 ) Fitzsimmons
3 ) Robinson
4 ) Hagler
5 ) Golovkin
6 ) Monzon
7 ) R. Jones
8 ) Cerdan
9 ) Zale
10 ) Hopkins

[Tomasino]

Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Charley Burley
Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Stanley Ketchel
Tommy Ryan
Dick Tiger
Freddie Steele

I can't see Hagler beating Monzon - interesting. Both great technicians (boxer-punchers), both great defensive fighters; great chins - but height and jab to Monzon and with that a 15U - me thinks anyway.

I think Haglers too fast and his footwork and slickness would give Monzon fits. Like when Monzon struggled against a faded Griffith. I did think hard about putting Monzon in front but I just think Hagler had a bit more to his game than Monzon.

[Tomasino]

1.Harry Greb
2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Mike Gibbons
4.Stanley Ketchel
5.Marvin Hagler
6.Mickey Walker
7.Carlos Monzon
8.Kid McCoy
9.Freddie Steele
10.Holman Williams

I struggled between Williams and Steele for no10

[Tomasino]

Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Charley Burley
Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Stanley Ketchel
Tommy Ryan
Dick Tiger
Freddie Steele

I can't see Hagler beating Monzon - interesting. Both great technicians (boxer-punchers), both great defensive fighters; great chins - but height and jab to Monzon and with that a 15U - me thinks anyway.

I don't simply vote on H2H anyway or Burley or Langford would likely be at the top.

[APerno]

Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Charley Burley
Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Stanley Ketchel
Tommy Ryan
Dick Tiger
Freddie Steele

I can't see Hagler beating Monzon - interesting. Both great technicians (boxer-punchers), both great defensive fighters; great chins - but height and jab to Monzon and with that a 15U - me thinks anyway.

I think Haglers too fast and his footwork and slickness would give Monzon fits. Like when Monzon struggled against a faded Griffith. I did think hard about putting Monzon in front but I just think Hagler had a bit more to his game than Monzon.

No doubt Hagler was quicker and probably did have better footwork; Monzon was almost robot like.

Leonard, after the Hagler fight, commented that it was Duran who showed him how to beat Hagler; ‘make Hagler come to you.’ Duran should never have lasted 15 rounds but Hagler was off his game, preferring to counter-punch he was forced to press the action and he looked out of sync; it repeated itself into the SD loss to Leonard.

How that would work out with Monzon I am really not too sure; I suspect both would prefer to counter punch and could end up posing in front of each other the way Hopkins-Jones or Leonard-Benitez(sp) did. This fight could end up a stinker.

I also have always wondered why Hagler had such a hard time with Antuofermo; you would think Antuofermo’s style would have been ready-made for Hagler?

[cfang]

Harry Greb
Sam Langford
Ray Robinson
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Mickey Walker
Charley Burley
Stanley Ketchel
Bernard Hopkins
Freddie Steele

[Tomasino]

I can't see Hagler beating Monzon - interesting. Both great technicians (boxer-punchers), both great defensive fighters; great chins - but height and jab to Monzon and with that a 15U - me thinks anyway.

I think Haglers too fast and his footwork and slickness would give Monzon fits. Like when Monzon struggled against a faded Griffith. I did think hard about putting Monzon in front but I just think Hagler had a bit more to his game than Monzon.

No doubt Hagler was quicker and probably did have better footwork; Monzon was almost robot like.

Leonard, after the Hagler fight, commented that it was Duran who showed him how to beat Hagler; ‘make Hagler come to you.’ Duran should never have lasted 15 rounds but Hagler was off his game, preferring to counter-punch he was forced to press the action and he looked out of sync; it repeated itself into the SD loss to Leonard.

How that would work out with Monzon I am really not too sure; I suspect both would prefer to counter punch and could end up posing in front of each other the way Hopkins-Jones or Leonard-Benitez(sp) did. This fight could end up a stinker.

I also have always wondered why Hagler had such a hard time with Antuofermo; you would think Antuofermo’s style would have been ready-made for Hagler?

Who ever had an easy time with Vito? Marvin got robbed then sliced him up in the rematch.

[Keko]

Hagler was the second fight and head twice nice hit, due to bleeding interrupted match.
It was not intentional but damage to the match.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Monzon
Charley Burley
Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Stanley Ketchel
Tommy Ryan
Dick Tiger
Freddie Steele

I can't see Hagler beating Monzon - interesting. Both great technicians (boxer-punchers), both great defensive fighters; great chins - but height and jab to Monzon and with that a 15U - me thinks anyway.

I think Haglers too fast and his footwork and slickness would give Monzon fits. Like when Monzon struggled against a faded Griffith. I did think hard about putting Monzon in front but I just think Hagler had a bit more to his game than Monzon.

I strongly agree

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Top 12 Middleweights

Gennady Golovkin… 18-0 in Middleweight Title Fights with 18 KO wins
Carlos Monzon… 15-0 in Middleweight Title Fights
Bernard Hopkins… 20-3 in Middleweight Title Fights – also won Light Heavyweight Title
James Toney... also won Super Middleweight and Cruiserweight titles
Roy Jones... also won Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles
Bob Fitzsimmons... also won Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight titles
Marvin Hagler... 13-1-1 in Middleweight in Title Fights
Stanley Ketchel... known for winning 3 of 4 savage fights with arch rival Billy Papke
Harry Greb... only man to beat Gene Tunney
Mike Gibbons... beat Jack Dillon, Harry Greb, and Ted Kid Lewis at his best
Mickey Walker... Welterweight and Middleweight Champion. Also fought and beat many Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights
Ray Robinson... also tried to win the Light Heavyweight Title once

I didn't rank long time Middleweight Champion Tommy Ryan, but a lot of early historians ranked him one of the greatest boxers and coaches of all time. But there are no available fights of his on film and just 1 clip of him sparring and skipping rope.

Did you read the rules section of the opening post where he stated, in bold:

Top 10 Middleweights of all time

No?

that's what I was thinking top 10 12

[Kalan]

This really does not make sense to take into account with regard to the rules.
Golovkin

GGG is clearly the World's top Middleweight... Robinson got beaten in his 1st Middleweight Title Defense and pretty regular after that -- so it wasn't clear he was the best... SRR was 3-3 in MIddleweight Title Defenses with 2 KO wins... Golovkin is 17-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses with 17 KO wins.

Out of interest, is there anyone that Golovkin has fought who you think would beat Sugar Ray Robinson?

YES---considering Carmen Basilio, Jake LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, Randy Turpin, Ralph Jones, and a raft of other less than athletic or fast Middleweights lost to MANY 2nd raters you never even heard of---but they all beat Sugar Ray Robinson---and many Middleweights refuse to risk even getting into a ring with GGG.. Nobody very good really feared Robinson. He wasn't the boxer or puncher GGG is ... and SRR was decked a lot. GGG was never decked in his life.

For instance, Kell Brook was 36-0 when he fought Golovkin. Brook was walking around at 176 when he was stopped in 5 by GGG.. Brook would have made easy work of short, small, and slow Basilio, who had 12 defeats when he beat Robinson.. When Basilio fought his 36th fight he went down to his 4th defeat in his last 7 fights.. Those 7 unknown opponents had 99 defeats before they met Basilio. Brook was 36-0 when Golovkin handed him his first defeat.. Brook's last 7 opponents have 9 losses as opposed to 99.

Brook would have been more competitive with Robinson than Basilio was...and Basilio was VERY competitive... Canelo, Saunders, Jacobs, Quillin, and Eubank are much better than the Middleweights generally ranked top 5 to Robinson... Can you picture Fullmer trying to fight the speedy, slick, and powerful 2016 version of Chris Eubank??? Or the spindly Pender trying to take on the powerful, rock-hard and 6' tall Daniel Jacobs??? Or Basilio trying to fight the much bigger Canelo Alvarez??? ... NONE of those guys are anxious to fight GGG but they would have had little fear of getting into a ring with the hittable Robinson.

[Kalan]

BTW... the guys who beat Robinson would probably be just as fearful of GGG as the top Middleweights today are... He's a pretty scary dude.

[elmersalsa]

GGG is clearly the World's top Middleweight... Robinson got beaten in his 1st Middleweight Title Defense and pretty regular after that -- so it wasn't clear he was the best... SRR was 3-3 in MIddleweight Title Defenses with 2 KO wins... Golovkin is 17-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses with 17 KO wins.

Out of interest, is there anyone that Golovkin has fought who you think would beat Sugar Ray Robinson?

YES---considering Carmen Basilio, Jake LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, Randy Turpin, Ralph Jones, and a raft of other less than athletic or fast Middleweights lost to MANY 2nd raters you never even heard of---but they all beat Sugar Ray Robinson---and many Middleweights refuse to risk even getting into a ring with GGG.. Nobody very good really feared Robinson. He wasn't the boxer or puncher GGG is ... and SRR was decked a lot. GGG was never decked in his life.

For instance, Kell Brook was 36-0 when he fought Golovkin. Brook was walking around at 176 when he was stopped in 5 by GGG.. Brook would have made easy work of short, small, and slow Basilio, who had 12 defeats when he beat Robinson.. When Basilio fought his 36th fight he went down to his 4th defeat in his last 7 fights.. Those 7 unknown opponents had 99 defeats before they met Basilio. Brook was 36-0 when Golovkin handed him his first defeat.. Brook's last 7 opponents have 9 losses as opposed to 99.

Brook would have been more competitive with Robinson than Basilio was...and Basilio was VERY competitive... Canelo, Saunders, Jacobs, Quillin, and Eubank are much better than the Middleweights generally ranked top 5 to Robinson... Can you picture Fullmer trying to fight the speedy, slick, and powerful 2016 version of Chris Eubank??? Or the spindly Pender trying to take on the powerful, rock-hard and 6' tall Daniel Jacobs??? Or Basilio trying to fight the much bigger Canelo Alvarez??? ... NONE of those guys are anxious to fight GGG but they would have had little fear of getting into a ring with the hittable Robinson.

I agree with a lot of stuff you had said in other posts, but this post is BLASPHEMOUS, Kalan!

[ClivePatrickLyons]

BTW... the guys who beat Robinson would probably be just as fearful of GGG as the top Middleweights today are... He's a pretty scary dude.

GGG is in the same boat as Monzon never ever faced a fighter anywhere near the ability of SRR when SRR was in his prime fighting day's he was no older then 31 years old GGG needs to move up in weight if he wants to cement his legacy JUST LIKE SRR THE P4P KING DID BEST FIGHTER IN HISTORY.