BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Keko wrote:

Crease wrote: Agreed. Especially when you compare them to some of the Heavies that were knocking about in that day... Remember Eric Esch?

I think at that time these that I mentioned were still solid competition.

Agreed. Lewis was beating fighters way better than Eric Esch. If people are going to say that Lewis should have these guys, then when was it supposed to happen?
Was Lewis fighting clearly weaker opponents at the time?

I not interested in the assumptions which he won but just the fact and that is that he did not fight with these boxers.

All they were then competition!


No one in their right mind says that Lewis was not a great boxer but the fact that it really is not fought with many good boxers of his era.

Well you can't fight everybody. If he was only fighting fighter were much worse than Byrd, Ruiz, and Moorer, than I would be critical as well.

However, he fought Mercer, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, Golota, Morrison, Tucker etc.

In another words, he fought many more decent fighters than Byrd, Ruiz, and Moorer.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Boxing Writer wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Sure you can spin it that way if you want.
You can also spin it this way:
Yes Byrd did stop Vitali as Lewis did. However Lewis was way past it when he did it.
I would say that the first Lewis-Holyfield fight was more one-sided than the Byrd-Holyfield fight; and Holyfield had a bit more left against Lewis.
The Holyfield fights don't really prove a whole lot.
I would also argue that Tua was a better fighter at the time he fought Lewis than when he fought Byrd.

Byrd also was lucky to get a draw against an old Andrew Golota. Lewis knocked out a prime Golota in the first round. You didn't mention that one.

Even if you don't count Holyfield and Tyson, I rate Mercer, McCall, Ruddock, and Bruno ahead of Byrd.
If you take out their head to head fight, I don't see how Byrd rates much higher than Tua.
I don't see how Byrd was much better than Golota, Morrison, and the faded yet not washed up version of Tucker that Lewis beat.

When ranking Lennox Lewis all time standing as comparing him to other heavyweight greats, I don't see how a win over Chris Byrd would move him up any.
Nobody was screaming for a Byrd-Lewis fight because Byrd had no chance. Byrd couldn't hurt him or outbox him.

I don't see how Tua could be worse against Byrd than he was against Lewis. He was just 9 months older but he was clearly in much better shape when he fought Byrd (233 lbs vs 245 lbs version against Lewis).

I also think Byrd was better than Mercer, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, faded Morrison and faded Tucker. I think Chris would outbox them all. But I agree there was no public demand for Lewis - Byrd fight and I think Lewis would most likely beat Byrd by close decision in late 2002, when Byrd was at his very best and Lewis was slightly past it. I don't think that Lewis was scared of Byrd at all, but I also don't think Bowe was scared of Lewis. Bowe's situation, however, looks much worse for public, because people really wanted to see that fight.

I thought Tua fought better against Lewis than he did against Byrd, but I guess we can disagree on that.
Guess we have to agree to disagree with where Byrd should rated. I think McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison and Tucker were better fighters and proved it. And Morrison was not faded when Lewis beat him.
Byrd had all kinds of trouble with Oquendo and McCline, probably should not have even got the draw against Golota. He got outboxed by W. Klitschko.
He had good boxing skills but was not the master boxer that some people make him out to be. He had virtually no power to bother Lewis with.
The best he could hope for against Lewis would be to last the distance and lose a lopsided decision. More likely, he gets stopped before 7 rounds.

1) It's a fact that Tua was in far worse shape against Lewis than he was against Byrd, not an opinion.
2) Morrison was clearly washed up when he fought Lewis. He got a disputed draw against 8-8 Ross Puritty and was destroyed in one round by 10-1 Michael Bentt before that fight
3) I think Byrd has better resume (wins) than Bruno, Ruddock, Morrison and Tucker, and was way more skilled and much faster than any of them. But of course they were bigger and much harder punchers
4) Being outboxed by Wladimir Klitschko doesn't mean you are bad. McCall was outboxed plenty of times by worse boxers, Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison were stopped/KO'ed by worse boxers etc.

Of course punchers like McCall, Rahman or Brewster would always pose a much bigger threat for the fighters like Lewis or Wlad than excellent elusive boxers with no power, but it doesn't mean they are better.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Well you can't fight everybody. If he was only fighting fighter were much worse than Byrd, Ruiz, and Moorer, than I would be critical as well.

However, he fought Mercer, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, Golota, Morrison, Tucker etc.

In another words, he fought many more decent fighters than Byrd, Ruiz, and Moorer.

Yes but had less serious opponents of say Holyfield.
Bowe,Ruiz,Byrd,Moorer it is a shame that there was no such fights.

As for Ruiz/Grant situation, Lewis was REALLY afraid. He was afraid that somebody would KO Michael Grant before he would do it, stealing his big payday

Look, not many people remember now, but IBF was also trying to make Lewis defend his title against mandatory challenger (Tua) before facing Grant. Lennox went to the court and won the case. Does it mean he was scared of Tua? Of course not! He fought him later that year and beat him easily. The only thing he was afraid of in that whole situation with Michael Grant defense was that somebody else would steal his easy money, knocking out fragile, unskilled Michael Grant before him. Golota almost did it in the first round, so while Lewis would be busy fighting Tua and Ruiz, somebody could've ended that Michael Grant hype. He just didn't want to lose easy $10 millions, that's it.

So, while I'd prefer Lewis fighting Ruiz instead of Grant, I can't blame him at all. It was just a business decision and nothing more

I do not think Lewis is someone afraid but that is too much tactics were played with dial fight.
I can not ignore that he did not fight with so many good boxer of his era.

I'm not saying that he was a better boxer of them or the fact that there was no such fight.

golden oldie wrote:I also fail to see any comparison between Vitali, out boxing Byrd, and injuring his shoulder forcing him to pull out, and Vitali out boxing Lewis, but getting stopped because his face resembled pizza.

Vitali himself said he injured his shoulder when he missed with a punch. Byrd's defense and elusiveness caused that injury more than anything else. Just like Lewis' offense caused the cuts, Byrd's defense caused the injury.

golden oldie wrote:

Boxing Writer wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:
Correct. Lewis saw bigger fights and avoided Chris, the same way he didn't want to fight John Ruiz. Lewis' legacy is not tarnished by these, not like Bowe ducking him.

The problem is that Lewis avoided Chris in a hope for rematch with totally shot Tyson, whom he already pummeled like a pucnhing bag. Chris Byrd was much better than that version of Tyson. Hell, even Danny Williams was much better, which he proven.

So, yes, I think that Lewis legacy is tarnished because of him avoiding Byrd and Ruiz, but only slightly. Not comparable to Bowe, because a win over Byrd and especially Ruiz wouldn't add much to his legacy, while win over Lewis would be one of the biggest achievements in Bowe's career.

Saying that, I don't believe for a second that Bowe was scared of Lewis, and he proved it by signing contract to fight Lennox in 1995 - http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/18/sport ... is-on.html

But yes, it was awfully dumb move from Bowe and Rock Newman not to fight Lennox in 1993, because that version of Lennox was nowhere near as good as the one, that was developed by Emanuel Steward. I think 1999 version of Lewis would KO 1993 version of Lewis in one round - that's how much better Lennox has become. He added some muscules and probably become slightly slower because of additional weight, but he also improved immensely in others areas, especially balance, footwork and defense.

I think anyone with any common sense can dismiss that NY times article completely out of hand after reading the first paragraph.

Riddick Bowe, described as "ecstatic" and thanking his manager profusely, yesterday agreed to fight Lennox Lewis, the man who defeated him in the Olympics and then literally lifted out of the garbage can the heavyweight belt Bowe had tossed away.

Unless of course we are to believe a professional writer doesn't know the meaning of the word " literally "

Ok, here is another one - https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 5f9d94b59/

But anyway, refusing to fight Lewis in 1993 was a HUGE mistake from Bowe.

Boxing Writer wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Boxing Writer wrote: I don't see how Tua could be worse against Byrd than he was against Lewis. He was just 9 months older but he was clearly in much better shape when he fought Byrd (233 lbs vs 245 lbs version against Lewis).

I also think Byrd was better than Mercer, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, faded Morrison and faded Tucker. I think Chris would outbox them all. But I agree there was no public demand for Lewis - Byrd fight and I think Lewis would most likely beat Byrd by close decision in late 2002, when Byrd was at his very best and Lewis was slightly past it. I don't think that Lewis was scared of Byrd at all, but I also don't think Bowe was scared of Lewis. Bowe's situation, however, looks much worse for public, because people really wanted to see that fight.

I thought Tua fought better against Lewis than he did against Byrd, but I guess we can disagree on that.
Guess we have to agree to disagree with where Byrd should rated. I think McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison and Tucker were better fighters and proved it. And Morrison was not faded when Lewis beat him.
Byrd had all kinds of trouble with Oquendo and McCline, probably should not have even got the draw against Golota. He got outboxed by W. Klitschko.
He had good boxing skills but was not the master boxer that some people make him out to be. He had virtually no power to bother Lewis with.
The best he could hope for against Lewis would be to last the distance and lose a lopsided decision. More likely, he gets stopped before 7 rounds.

1) It's a fact that Tua was in far worse shape against Lewis than he was against Byrd, not an opinion.
2) Morrison was clearly washed up when he fought Lewis. He got a disputed draw against 8-8 Ross Puritty and was destroyed in one round by 10-1 Michael Bentt before that fight
3) I think Byrd has better resume (wins) than Bruno, Ruddock, Morrison and Tucker, and was way more skilled and much faster than any of them. But of course they were bigger and much harder punchers
4) Being outboxed by Wladimir Klitschko doesn't mean you are bad. McCall was outboxed plenty of times by worse boxers, Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison were stopped/KO'ed by worse boxers etc.

Of course punchers like McCall, Rahman or Brewster would always pose a much bigger threat for the fighters like Lewis or Wlad than excellent elusive boxers with no power, but it doesn't mean they are better.

1. The Tua-Byrd fight was closer than the Lewis-Tua fight.
2. Morrison was 26 years old when he fought Lewis. He had just beaten Razor Rudock. So no, he was not washed up.
3. I don't think Byrd had a better resume than Bruno, Ruddock, Morrison and Tucker.
4. Lewis was a better boxer than Klitschko. If Byrd can't do any better than that, he is in big trouble against Lewis. McCall, Ruddock, Lewis, Bruno, and Morrison all had their ups and downs. Byrd did as well.
5. Nobody wanted to see Byrd-Lewis because Byrd had no chance. It's really hard to outbox someone who has sizable height and reach advantages and is a very good boxer himself. He has no power which Lewis had to respect either.

I'm just really wanted to see this fight, unfortunately none of it.
Byrd has been solid defensively and it would be a good fight.

Frankly as much as anyone was a better boxer, I do not like writing this victory and advance to the justification for what the fight did not happen.

Nobody wanted a Lewis-Byrd fight at the time, probably not even Byrd himself.

Should not be exaggerated.

Edit
that at least a Byrd

There are some fighters whose legacies are tarnished by the people they avoided or didn't get to fight; this is not one of those instances.

Lennox Lewis did not need to fight Chris Byrd to enhance his legacy.

Lewis had already proved himself by that stage in his career.

Ambling Alp II wrote:1. The Tua-Byrd fight was closer than the Lewis-Tua fight.
2. Morrison was 26 years old when he fought Lewis. He had just beaten Razor Rudock. So no, he was not washed up.
3. I don't think Byrd had a better resume than Bruno, Ruddock, Morrison and Tucker.
4. Lewis was a better boxer than Klitschko. If Byrd can't do any better than that, he is in big trouble against Lewis. McCall, Ruddock, Lewis, Bruno, and Morrison all had their ups and downs. Byrd did as well.
5. Nobody wanted to see Byrd-Lewis because Byrd had no chance. It's really hard to outbox someone who has sizable height and reach advantages and is a very good boxer himself. He has no power which Lewis had to respect either.

1. Yes, but we were talking about fighting shape, not the scores or easiness of victory. And 12 lbs difference is a HUGE for 5'9'' guy.

2. Vargas and Benitez were even more washed up than Morrison at 26. And if Morrison was in his prime as you say, then he wasn't such a good fighter, because it means that in his prime he barely got a draw against 8-8 Puritty (Byrd easily outboxed much more experienced Puritty later) and was demolished in 1 round by 10-1 (5 KOs) Michael Bentt.

3. Byrd's 3 best wins: Vitali, Holyfield (old), Tua. Bruno's 3 best wins: McCall, Coetzee and probably Carl Williams. Byrd's resume is far superior to Bruno's one.

Now, lets look at Ruddock resume. He beat a bunch of washed up former champions, each of whom at the time was worse than Vitali, Tua or old Holyfield. So, Byrd's resume is clearly superior to Ruddock's one.

Morrison beat old Foreman, overrated (and washed up) Ruddock and Carl Williams. Byrd's resume is superior again.

Tucker beat Douglas, McCall and cruiserweight Orlin Norris (who really deserved the win in that fight). Byrd's resume is definitely better.

SteveO wrote:Nobody wanted a Lewis-Byrd fight at the time, probably not even Byrd himself.

Byrd wanted it badly. Even a year later he was willing to replace injured Kirk Johnson though he wasn't training at the time and would have had ridiculously short (11 days or so) training camp.

This has a fair amount of comedy in it chaps, keep it up!

Ruiz roughing up and stopping Lewis?

Neither man had the ability and more importantly, the power, to trouble Lewis at all. He'd have stopped both, comfortably, in two one sided fights.

The most sense in here is the claim Lewis wanted to get to Grant before someone else beat him! He was being billed as a threat to Lennox, was physically bigger and was banging people out. Lewis knew he'd make mincemeat out of him and wanted that before what would have been routine wins with Byrd and Ruiz.

If it had planned out differently I suspect this thread would read 'Lennox ducked Grant, a 6'9 athletic knockout artist!!!!'

lillywhite14 wrote:If it had planned out differently I suspect this thread would read 'Lennox ducked Grant, a 6'9 athletic knockout artist!!!!'

Exactly.
I suppose if Lewis hadn't lost against McCall and Rahman he could have fitted in another couple of defences - instead of the rematches.
Byrd would have been an easy fight for him but, as others have pointed out, there was no desire from the public for the contest and no money in it.

Boxing Writer wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:1. The Tua-Byrd fight was closer than the Lewis-Tua fight.
2. Morrison was 26 years old when he fought Lewis. He had just beaten Razor Rudock. So no, he was not washed up.
3. I don't think Byrd had a better resume than Bruno, Ruddock, Morrison and Tucker.
4. Lewis was a better boxer than Klitschko. If Byrd can't do any better than that, he is in big trouble against Lewis. McCall, Ruddock, Lewis, Bruno, and Morrison all had their ups and downs. Byrd did as well.
5. Nobody wanted to see Byrd-Lewis because Byrd had no chance. It's really hard to outbox someone who has sizable height and reach advantages and is a very good boxer himself. He has no power which Lewis had to respect either.

1. Yes, but we were talking about fighting shape, not the scores or easiness of victory. And 12 lbs difference is a HUGE for 5'9'' guy.

2. Vargas and Benitez were even more washed up than Morrison at 26. And if Morrison was in his prime as you say, then he wasn't such a good fighter, because it means that in his prime he barely got a draw against 8-8 Puritty (Byrd easily outboxed much more experienced Puritty later) and was demolished in 1 round by 10-1 (5 KOs) Michael Bentt.

3. Byrd's 3 best wins: Vitali, Holyfield (old), Tua. Bruno's 3 best wins: McCall, Coetzee and probably Carl Williams. Byrd's resume is far superior to Bruno's one.

Now, lets look at Ruddock resume. He beat a bunch of washed up former champions, each of whom at the time was worse than Vitali, Tua or old Holyfield. So, Byrd's resume is clearly superior to Ruddock's one.

Morrison beat old Foreman, overrated (and washed up) Ruddock and Carl Williams. Byrd's resume is superior again.

Tucker beat Douglas, McCall and cruiserweight Orlin Norris (who really deserved the win in that fight). Byrd's resume is definitely better.

1. We were talking about ease of victory. Lewis had less trouble Tua than Byrd did. It's doubftul if Tua weighed 12 pounds less he would have done better against Lewis.
2. Sure you can count Morrison's losses against him. However you have to also count Morrison's wins and Byrd losses as well.
3. Byrd's three biggest wins ? Holyfield was shot. You can't count tht and then dismiss Lewis win over Morrison.
Klitscho? Well so what? Klitschko was not that good at all. And no I don't care how many WBS title defenses he may have had. Whcih leaves us with only Tua.
No way in thew wordl Byrd's resume was tha Tucker. Tucker went 12 rounds with a prime Mike Tyson. Byrd doesn't see the middle rounds against Tyson. I will take wins over Douglas and McCall over washed up Holyfield, Tua and frikkin Klitschko.

In a nutshell you are spinning things to make Byrd looking better than he was. You keep leaving out that he got iced by Ibeabuchi. Who else worth mentioning did Ibeabuchi ever stop?
He only got a draw against an old Golota. He didn't even deserve that. You keep ignoring that.
In a nutshell you are spinning things to make McAll, Bruno, Tucker, Ruddock etc to look worse.
Then you are overrating Byrds wins and glossing over his negatives. All of these guys have pluses and minues. Byrd doesn't stand out at all.

Not that I am expecting Lewis detractors to answer this, but I will ask it anyway.
Besides Holyfield, what heavyweight in Lewis' era, fought as good of competition as Lewis?

golden oldie wrote:

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Boxing is a business.

Too much risk, not enough compensation on this.

Technically a duck, but probably not noticed by anyone but die hard fans, who forget about the business aspects.


Like those who think Bowe Ducked Lewis...(admittedly bigger media coverage and rumor mongering so more fanboys excitement) this is much adieu over very little.

At the end of the day you can file this in the same file as Bowe's action with Lewis.....both are factually true, but more business motivated than any fear. Lewis fans should be very happy that the Bowe fight did not happen, and honestly, Byrd would be a serious threat to Lewis at that time. I'd Favor Lewis, but not sure I'd bet heavy.

I actually would like to have seen Ike and Lewis, so the Ike believers would have nothing to imaginate over.

Chris Byrd was so easily beaten by Ibeabuchi and Wladimir... He wasn't on the same plane as Lewis... Lewis and Bowe were the best Heavyweights on the planet when Lewis was his mandatory challenger... Lewis-Bowe wasn't much ado over nothing -- this was the biggest fight on Earth that fans could possibly see at that time -- and the most flagrant and belligerent duck in Boxing HIstory.

Your views on Ibeabuchi are ignorant... He was the best Heavyweight on the planet if he could have continued his career after his 20th straight win... He mopped the floor with a slick boxer like Byrd very quickly... To show how much he learned since beating Tua by UD in his 17th fight...

In fairness I wouldn't say these scores indicate anyone mopping the floor with the other guy.

39-37 for Ibeabuchi and 39-37 for Byrd with one tally at 38-38.

What he did do was nail him with a big left hook, and that was the beginning of the end of it for Byrd.

Ibeabuchi was mopping the floor with Byrd if you forget the idiotic scores and watch the fight... Ibeabuchi was the aggressor and landed more and harder punches... It was not a 1-punch win like you're making it... Ike softened Byrd up for 4 rounds and then attacked him hard in the 5th.. He cut the ring off and pinned Byrd on the ropes -- and then he attacked the head and body very well and got Byrd going..

He did the prep work before delivering the KO.. a classic example of how a great puncher beats a great boxer: 1. get after him.. 2. get on him.. 3. stay on him.. 4. get him going.. 5. get him out ... Considering Ibeabuchi had a limited amateur background and only 19 pro fights.. He looked very good.

No I can't say I remember that when/why did Lewis.............Duck Bird I meant Byrd.

One reason he didn't fight Byrd is Byrd didn't really want to fight him that badly. He never talked a lot about Lewis, and nobody thinks he would beat him.

I never liked him because he always picked fights.
He is good but he is not as undefeatable as some say. He would have more defeats if he didn't pick fights.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

Boxing Writer wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:1. The Tua-Byrd fight was closer than the Lewis-Tua fight.
2. Morrison was 26 years old when he fought Lewis. He had just beaten Razor Rudock. So no, he was not washed up.
3. I don't think Byrd had a better resume than Bruno, Ruddock, Morrison and Tucker.
4. Lewis was a better boxer than Klitschko. If Byrd can't do any better than that, he is in big trouble against Lewis. McCall, Ruddock, Lewis, Bruno, and Morrison all had their ups and downs. Byrd did as well.
5. Nobody wanted to see Byrd-Lewis because Byrd had no chance. It's really hard to outbox someone who has sizable height and reach advantages and is a very good boxer himself. He has no power which Lewis had to respect either.

1. Yes, but we were talking about fighting shape, not the scores or easiness of victory. And 12 lbs difference is a HUGE for 5'9'' guy.

2. Vargas and Benitez were even more washed up than Morrison at 26. And if Morrison was in his prime as you say, then he wasn't such a good fighter, because it means that in his prime he barely got a draw against 8-8 Puritty (Byrd easily outboxed much more experienced Puritty later) and was demolished in 1 round by 10-1 (5 KOs) Michael Bentt.

3. Byrd's 3 best wins: Vitali, Holyfield (old), Tua. Bruno's 3 best wins: McCall, Coetzee and probably Carl Williams. Byrd's resume is far superior to Bruno's one.

Now, lets look at Ruddock resume. He beat a bunch of washed up former champions, each of whom at the time was worse than Vitali, Tua or old Holyfield. So, Byrd's resume is clearly superior to Ruddock's one.

Morrison beat old Foreman, overrated (and washed up) Ruddock and Carl Williams. Byrd's resume is superior again.

Tucker beat Douglas, McCall and cruiserweight Orlin Norris (who really deserved the win in that fight). Byrd's resume is definitely better.

1. We were talking about ease of victory. Lewis had less trouble Tua than Byrd did. It's doubftul if Tua weighed 12 pounds less he would have done better against Lewis.
2. Sure you can count Morrison's losses against him. However you have to also count Morrison's wins and Byrd losses as well.
3. Byrd's three biggest wins ? Holyfield was shot. You can't count tht and then dismiss Lewis win over Morrison.
Klitscho? Well so what? Klitschko was not that good at all. And no I don't care how many WBS title defenses he may have had. Whcih leaves us with only Tua.
No way in thew wordl Byrd's resume was tha Tucker. Tucker went 12 rounds with a prime Mike Tyson. Byrd doesn't see the middle rounds against Tyson. I will take wins over Douglas and McCall over washed up Holyfield, Tua and frikkin Klitschko.

In a nutshell you are spinning things to make Byrd looking better than he was. You keep leaving out that he got iced by Ibeabuchi. Who else worth mentioning did Ibeabuchi ever stop?
He only got a draw against an old Golota. He didn't even deserve that. You keep ignoring that.
In a nutshell you are spinning things to make McAll, Bruno, Tucker, Ruddock etc to look worse.
Then you are overrating Byrds wins and glossing over his negatives. All of these guys have pluses and minues. Byrd doesn't stand out at all.

The only thing I can agree here is that Byrd doen't stand out. He had better resume than those guys and was better boxer than them, but most of these guys could bang, and Chris couldn't. So the guys like Rahman and McCall were more dangerous for Lewis even though Byrd was much better boxer than them. Just compare how easily Byrd beat Holyfield sixth months after Holyfield trashed prime Rahman. But then again, I'm not accusing Lewis of ducking Byrd. I'm just trying to stop people from disrespecting Chris Byrd, who achieved amazing things considering his size and lack of power.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Not that I am expecting Lewis detractors to answer this, but I will ask it anyway.
Besides Holyfield, what heavyweight in Lewis' era, fought as good of competition as Lewis?

None. Only Holyfield had better competition. And Holyfield had easier time getting Bowe and still relevant version of Tyson, because their teams didn't consider Evander as a big threat. But it doesn't change anything I previously said about Chris Byrd.