BoxRec

Jip wrote:burger king

Enlightened-One wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:I think James Toney should have retired after his victory over Vassiliy Jirov, because that’s when he seemed to possess all of his mental faculties. Whilst he may have scored a few decent victories as a heavyweight, he didn’t achieve much in that weight class and retiring at that stage may have reduced or even avoided the symptoms of punch drunk syndrome.

James Toney beat Jirov and in James very next fight he TKO'D FHOF Holyfield THE BIGGEST WIN OF HIS LIFE BUT YOU THINK HE SHOULD HAVE PACKED IT IN BEFORE HE GOT THE BIGGEST SCALP ON HIS LOG.

I think I’ve upset you, haven’t I? I can tell, because you’ve resorted to using angry capital letters again.

I think that it would have been more appropriate for James Toney to have retired on the back of his last legitimate successful world title fight.

For sure, Toney could have also retired after the Holyfield fight, but in my mind, he wasn’t overly successful in that weight division and his physical capabilities above 200lbs will always be in question after failing two drug tests.

I feel compelled to question the legitimacy of his achievements when he was a heavyweight, because he didn’t get banned for using recreational drugs, he was suspended twice for using steroids, which severely undermines the value of his victory over Holyfield, since there’s a strong possibility that he could have been juicing in that fight also (but without getting caught).

To be perfectly honest with you, whilst James Toney is (stylistically-speaking) one of my favourite fighters ever, I flatly-refuse to recognise any of his sporting achievements when he campaigned as a heavyweight, because he was PED cheat, which severely and permanently tarnished his legacy.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote: James Toney beat Jirov and in James very next fight he TKO'D FHOF Holyfield THE BIGGEST WIN OF HIS LIFE BUT YOU THINK HE SHOULD HAVE PACKED IT IN BEFORE HE GOT THE BIGGEST SCALP ON HIS LOG.

I think I’ve upset you, haven’t I? I can tell, because you’ve resorted to using angry capital letters again.

I think that it would have been more appropriate for James Toney to have retired on the back of his last legitimate successful world title fight.

For sure, Toney could have also retired after the Holyfield fight, but in my mind, he wasn’t overly successful in that weight division and his physical capabilities above 200lbs will always be in question after failing two drug tests.

I feel compelled to question the legitimacy of his achievements when he was a heavyweight, because he didn’t get banned for using recreational drugs, he was suspended twice for using steroids, which severely undermines the value of his victory over Holyfield, since there’s a strong possibility that he could have been juicing in that fight also (but without getting caught).

To be perfectly honest with you, whilst James Toney is (stylistically-speaking) one of my favourite fighters ever, I flatly-refuse to recognise any of his sporting achievements when he campaigned as a heavyweight, because he was PED cheat, which severely and permanently tarnished his legacy.

How would your opinion upset me its a free world......And that's a dumb thing to say about PED'S when Toney was fighting Evander who's been suspected of the very same THING and you say Toney achievement's have a question mark over them well that would be the pot calling the kettle black don't you think and you call yourself the ''Enlightened on-one''pleeease

Enlightened-One wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote: I think I’ve upset you, haven’t I? I can tell, because you’ve resorted to using angry capital letters again.

I think that it would have been more appropriate for James Toney to have retired on the back of his last legitimate successful world title fight.

For sure, Toney could have also retired after the Holyfield fight, but in my mind, he wasn’t overly successful in that weight division and his physical capabilities above 200lbs will always be in question after failing two drug tests.

I feel compelled to question the legitimacy of his achievements when he was a heavyweight, because he didn’t get banned for using recreational drugs, he was suspended twice for using steroids, which severely undermines the value of his victory over Holyfield, since there’s a strong possibility that he could have been juicing in that fight also (but without getting caught).

To be perfectly honest with you, whilst James Toney is (stylistically-speaking) one of my favourite fighters ever, I flatly-refuse to recognise any of his sporting achievements when he campaigned as a heavyweight, because he was PED cheat, which severely and permanently tarnished his legacy.

How would your opinion upset me its a free world......And that's a dumb thing to say about PED'S when Toney was fighting Evander who's been suspected of the very same THING and you say Toney achievement's have a question mark over them well that would be the pot calling the kettle black don't you think and you call yourself the ''Enlightened on-one''pleeease

You automatically assume guilt based on rumour (i.e. there's no smoke without fire). Whereas I only consider the possibility of guilt based on a combination of irrefutable evidence, previous convictions and proven track record.

Which approach do you feel is more prudent and logical?

keithmoonhangover wrote:I'll remember him as a PED cheat who shouldn't be allowed in the IMHOF.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

How would your opinion upset me its a free world......And that's a dumb thing to say about PED'S when Toney was fighting Evander who's been suspected of the very same THING and you say Toney achievement's have a question mark over them well that would be the pot calling the kettle black don't you think and you call yourself the ''Enlightened on-one''pleeease

You automatically assume guilt based on rumour (i.e. there's no smoke without fire). Whereas I only consider the possibility of guilt based on a combination of irrefutable evidence, previous convictions and proven track record.

Which approach do you feel is more prudent and logical?

Which approach is more prudent you trying to sound intelligent Lets talk about your silly comment that Toney should have retired after beating Jirov when his very next fight was the biggest win of his career do you still think that or are we moving the goal post's again so we can divert from your misjudged view's

Enlightened-One wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote: I think I’ve upset you, haven’t I? I can tell, because you’ve resorted to using angry capital letters again.

I think that it would have been more appropriate for James Toney to have retired on the back of his last legitimate successful world title fight.

For sure, Toney could have also retired after the Holyfield fight, but in my mind, he wasn’t overly successful in that weight division and his physical capabilities above 200lbs will always be in question after failing two drug tests.

I feel compelled to question the legitimacy of his achievements when he was a heavyweight, because he didn’t get banned for using recreational drugs, he was suspended twice for using steroids, which severely undermines the value of his victory over Holyfield, since there’s a strong possibility that he could have been juicing in that fight also (but without getting caught).

To be perfectly honest with you, whilst James Toney is (stylistically-speaking) one of my favourite fighters ever, I flatly-refuse to recognise any of his sporting achievements when he campaigned as a heavyweight, because he was PED cheat, which severely and permanently tarnished his legacy.

How would your opinion upset me its a free world......And that's a dumb thing to say about PED'S when Toney was fighting Evander who's been suspected of the very same THING and you say Toney achievement's have a question mark over them well that would be the pot calling the kettle black don't you think and you call yourself the ''Enlightened on-one''pleeease

You automatically assume guilt based on rumour (i.e. there's no smoke without fire). Whereas I only consider the possibility of guilt based on a combination of irrefutable evidence, previous convictions and proven track record.

Which approach do you feel is more prudent and logical?

Kalan wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:

How would your opinion upset me its a free world......And that's a dumb thing to say about PED'S when Toney was fighting Evander who's been suspected of the very same THING and you say Toney achievement's have a question mark over them well that would be the pot calling the kettle black don't you think and you call yourself the ''Enlightened on-one''pleeease

You automatically assume guilt based on rumour (i.e. there's no smoke without fire). Whereas I only consider the possibility of guilt based on a combination of irrefutable evidence, previous convictions and proven track record.

Which approach do you feel is more prudent and logical?

Evan Fields (Holyfield) is a proven drug cheat... He even admitted it and claimed a PED pusher told him that Tyson also was involved with PED's...

Loynesy wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:James Toney wouldn't even get my vote for HOF. I've always thought that he was an overrated boxer and unfortunately for him, I think that he'll be remembered in the same way that we remember Meldrick Taylor. Another boxer that didn't know when to hang them up and lost his future well being chasing money inside the ring at the expense of his brain. Another boxer with the lack of loved ones to shelter him from himself.

Boxing should be held responsible for this. There should be some cognitive exam that a boxer must pass in order to get a license to stay in the ring. Cognitive tests should be kept for the life of a boxer and taking into account if signs appear to show a decrease in capacity. But the wrong people make the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons and it's all about the all mighty dollar. It's sad.

If you don't think James Toney should be in the Hall of Fame you either (a) see it as the most exclusive of clubs, or (b) don't know much about boxing.

I actually agree with some of what you say re: him not knowing when to hang them up, but I can see no argument that he is not easily worthy of Hall of Fame.

caldo2025 wrote:

Loynesy wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:James Toney wouldn't even get my vote for HOF. I've always thought that he was an overrated boxer and unfortunately for him, I think that he'll be remembered in the same way that we remember Meldrick Taylor. Another boxer that didn't know when to hang them up and lost his future well being chasing money inside the ring at the expense of his brain. Another boxer with the lack of loved ones to shelter him from himself.

Boxing should be held responsible for this. There should be some cognitive exam that a boxer must pass in order to get a license to stay in the ring. Cognitive tests should be kept for the life of a boxer and taking into account if signs appear to show a decrease in capacity. But the wrong people make the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons and it's all about the all mighty dollar. It's sad.

If you don't think James Toney should be in the Hall of Fame you either (a) see it as the most exclusive of clubs, or (b) don't know much about boxing.

I actually agree with some of what you say re: him not knowing when to hang them up, but I can see no argument that he is not easily worthy of Hall of Fame.

James Toney will probably get into the HOF with the way they usher anyone and everyone into it each year. Heck, Sylvester Stallone is in the HOF for pretending to be a boxer. I'm just saying that if I had a ballot, I'd be more particular about who we let in to the HOF.

I lived through James Toney's professional boxing career and even paid $180 for a ticket to UFC 118 to see him fight and get killed by Randy Couture. To get into the HOF, you should have an effect on the sport on top of titles. Here's a guy that has been caught numerous times with steroids in post fight tests after winning belts. I'd argue that he's done more bad than good to the sport and honestly, boxing would have been better had they not had the James Toney era.

In my book, once you get caught cheating...you're done. That calls into question every fight you've ever been in and we have to assume he had an unfair advantage with PEDS. Sorry, you don't get in James Toney. Once dirty, always dirty.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:

Loynesy wrote:
If you don't think James Toney should be in the Hall of Fame you either (a) see it as the most exclusive of clubs, or (b) don't know much about boxing.

I actually agree with some of what you say re: him not knowing when to hang them up, but I can see no argument that he is not easily worthy of Hall of Fame.

James Toney will probably get into the HOF with the way they usher anyone and everyone into it each year. Heck, Sylvester Stallone is in the HOF for pretending to be a boxer. I'm just saying that if I had a ballot, I'd be more particular about who we let in to the HOF.

I lived through James Toney's professional boxing career and even paid $180 for a ticket to UFC 118 to see him fight and get killed by Randy Couture. To get into the HOF, you should have an effect on the sport on top of titles. Here's a guy that has been caught numerous times with steroids in post fight tests after winning belts. I'd argue that he's done more bad than good to the sport and honestly, boxing would have been better had they not had the James Toney era.

In my book, once you get caught cheating...you're done. That calls into question every fight you've ever been in and we have to assume he had an unfair advantage with PEDS. Sorry, you don't get in James Toney. Once dirty, always dirty.

I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that the whole sport is dirty, getting caught is more a matter of incompetence than anything else.

It's flagrantly obvious when you see fighters moving through the weights packing on solid ripped muscle, without body fat, it's just not humanly possible to stack on so much useful weight, ask any bodybuilder how hard it is to do so, and that's without even doing any cardio.

I'd say the Rocky movies probably had a huge effect in keeping boxing in the mainstream, and god knows how many young kids took up the sport because of those films.

caldo2025 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:
James Toney will probably get into the HOF with the way they usher anyone and everyone into it each year. Heck, Sylvester Stallone is in the HOF for pretending to be a boxer. I'm just saying that if I had a ballot, I'd be more particular about who we let in to the HOF.

I lived through James Toney's professional boxing career and even paid $180 for a ticket to UFC 118 to see him fight and get killed by Randy Couture. To get into the HOF, you should have an effect on the sport on top of titles. Here's a guy that has been caught numerous times with steroids in post fight tests after winning belts. I'd argue that he's done more bad than good to the sport and honestly, boxing would have been better had they not had the James Toney era.

In my book, once you get caught cheating...you're done. That calls into question every fight you've ever been in and we have to assume he had an unfair advantage with PEDS. Sorry, you don't get in James Toney. Once dirty, always dirty.

I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that the whole sport is dirty, getting caught is more a matter of incompetence than anything else.

It's flagrantly obvious when you see fighters moving through the weights packing on solid ripped muscle, without body fat, it's just not humanly possible to stack on so much useful weight, ask any bodybuilder how hard it is to do so, and that's without even doing any cardio.

I'd say the Rocky movies probably had a huge effect in keeping boxing in the mainstream, and god knows how many young kids took up the sport because of those films.

I disagree with that, James. I think that steroids are way more prevalent north of 170 pounds than south of it. Weight loss and Steroids do not mix. Most boxers under 170 are sucking weight to get to a number and that would be very difficult with steroids. Plus a lot of boxers now are slowly coming aboard to using VADA in their contracts.

I don't think that it's fair to label all boxers as dirty. You either need to have a bad test or some solid evidence with multiple witnesses's to officially be labeled as dirty. I prefer to believe that most boxers are clean and doing it correctly.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:... I've come to the opinion, that athletic sports as a whole are absolutely riddled with substance abuse, the pressures to gain an edge are intense, and at top level I think people are hitting it hard - they have the money and science to avoid detection, even VADA and other anti-doping agencies freely admit they are always several steps behind.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Steroids is old news, get on the EPO like Manny did. More oxygen = improved everything.

caldo2025 wrote:

Loynesy wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:James Toney wouldn't even get my vote for HOF. I've always thought that he was an overrated boxer and unfortunately for him, I think that he'll be remembered in the same way that we remember Meldrick Taylor. Another boxer that didn't know when to hang them up and lost his future well being chasing money inside the ring at the expense of his brain. Another boxer with the lack of loved ones to shelter him from himself.

Boxing should be held responsible for this. There should be some cognitive exam that a boxer must pass in order to get a license to stay in the ring. Cognitive tests should be kept for the life of a boxer and taking into account if signs appear to show a decrease in capacity. But the wrong people make the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons and it's all about the all mighty
dollar. It's sad.

If you don't think James Toney should be in the Hall of Fame you either (a) see it as the most exclusive of clubs, or (b) don't know much about boxing.

I actually agree with some of what you say re: him not knowing when to hang them up, but I can see no argument that he is not easily worthy of Hall of Fame.

James Toney will probably get into the HOF with the way they usher anyone and everyone into it each year. Heck, Sylvester Stallone is in the HOF for pretending to be a boxer. I'm just saying that if I had a ballot, I'd be more particular about who we let in to the HOF.

I lived through James Toney's professional boxing career and even paid $180 for a ticket to UFC 118 to see him fight and get killed by Randy Couture. To get into the HOF, you should have an effect on the sport on top of titles. Here's a guy that has been caught numerous times with steroids in post fight tests after winning belts. I'd argue that he's done more bad than good to the sport and honestly, boxing would have been better had they not had the James Toney era.

In my book, once you get caught cheating...you're done. That calls into question every fight you've ever been in and we have to assume he had an unfair advantage with PEDS. Sorry, you don't get in James Toney. Once dirty, always dirty.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that the whole sport is dirty, getting caught is more a matter of incompetence than anything else.

It's flagrantly obvious when you see fighters moving through the weights packing on solid ripped muscle, without body fat, it's just not humanly possible to stack on so much useful weight, ask any bodybuilder how hard it is to do so, and that's without even doing any cardio.

I'd say the Rocky movies probably had a huge effect in keeping boxing in the mainstream, and god knows how many young kids took up the sport because of those films.

I disagree with that, James. I think that steroids are way more prevalent north of 170 pounds than south of it. Weight loss and Steroids do not mix. Most boxers under 170 are sucking weight to get to a number and that would be very difficult with steroids. Plus a lot of boxers now are slowly coming aboard to using VADA in their contracts.

I don't think that it's fair to label all boxers as dirty. You either need to have a bad test or some solid evidence with multiple witnesses's to officially be labeled as dirty. I prefer to believe that most boxers are clean and doing it correctly.

I wish it were otherwise, I really do, but I've come to the opinion, that athletic sports as a whole are absolutely riddled with substance abuse, the pressures to gain an edge are intense, and at top level I think people are hitting it hard - they have the money and science to avoid detection, even VADA and other anti-doping agencies freely admit they are always several steps behind.