BoxRec

Tyson is way up the top in any punchers list IMO...

Hardhitters11 wrote:Tyson is way up the top in any punchers list IMO...

i reckon foreman was the hardest hitting heavyweight ever

Yeah there are a few punchers way up top with Tyson...Shavers is another big big hitter...

I think I would pop Tyson around 10-12.

There are a lot of variables were Tyson is concerned, and I refuse to rate him on potential. He had 12-18 months were he was awesome, but when compared to other heavies and their reigns, he falls down the order quite alarmingly.

Tysons power is very overrated. Its was his speed and aggression along with very good power that was the killer. Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Shavers and even Lennox Lewis hit harder imo. Ill take Lennox's right hand over any punch Tyson can produce for sheer power any day.

bennie wrote:My top 15 heavies of all time

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Larry Holmes
4) Jack Johnson
5) Jack Dempsey
6) Rocky Marciano
7) George Foreman
8] Jim Jeffries
9) Evander Holyfield
10) Joe Frazier
11) Gene Tunney
12) Sonny Liston
13) Jim Corbett
14) Lennox Lewis
15) Jersey Joe Walcott


My hardest-hitting heavies of all time

1) Joe Louis
2) Jack Dempsey
3) George Foreman
4) Rocky Marciano
5) Jim Jeffries
6) Sonny Liston
7) John L. Sullivan
8] Joe Frazier
9) Mike Tyson
10)Earnie Shavers





My ten greatest fighters ever

1) SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
2) MUHAMMAD ALI
3) JOE LOUIS
4) HENRY ARMSTRONG
5) WILLIE PEP
6) ARCHIE MOORE
7) SUGAR RAY LEONARD
8] MARVIN HAGLER
9) ROBERTO DURAN
10) BENNY LEONARD

Durans pretty low imo, especially with Hagler above him. Also I'd have Ezzard Charles up their as well, probably above Moore.

tyson was awesome in his due to 2 main things timeing and range

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Any of the great heavywweight champs would have had a chance against Mike, due to his mental frailty. However, Tyson would have had a chance against any of them too.

My list is as follows, though it changes often to be honest.

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Frazier
Marciano
Dempsey
Tyson
Liston

Can't argue with that much james although maybe i would have Marciano a little higher but other than that it's spot on.

im not a fan of these lists, who could beat who etc. but ill say this, when it comes to the heavyweights thposts on this topic cover roughly 100 years from jack johnson, tommy burns through to lewis. it always amazes me that no one ever ever rates gene tunney in these top ten heavyweights.

Dempsey always gets a mention. but here we have a guy who beat dempsey not once but twice. he beat dempsey for the title, retained it in a rematch went on to defend it against tom heany before retiring as the reigning champ. one of only a handfull of men to do that. he only lost 2 of his 72 fights during a time which many think of as the golden era for hevyweights, along with the 70s. during his career he also beat harry greb, who constantly makes these lists as one of the best ever at any weight, 3 times, something no one else ever managed (ok i know greb wasnt a natural heavy but neither was tunney. he had many figths at light heavy including one of his victories for the american light heavy title) and he also beat georges carpentier.

i think historys been a wee bit unfair to the fighting marine.

BubiScholz wrote:guys, think about the good old Max Schmeling. he is the only one who knocked Louis in the first round out. at his peak in his home country. in a time when everybody in the audiance was against Schmeling. he belongs in an all time top 15.

Schmeling actually knocked Louis out in the 12th or 13th round, not the 1st. Louis knocked Schmeling out in the 1st round in their rematch.

Schmeling still deserves credit for being the only one to beat Louis in his true prime...

neil r wrote:im not a fan of these lists, who could beat who etc. but ill say this, when it comes to the heavyweights thposts on this topic cover roughly 100 years from jack johnson, tommy burns through to lewis. it always amazes me that no one ever ever rates gene tunney in these top ten heavyweights.

Dempsey always gets a mention. but here we have a guy who beat dempsey not once but twice. he beat dempsey for the title, retained it in a rematch went on to defend it against tom heany before retiring as the reigning champ. one of only a handfull of men to do that. he only lost 2 of his 72 fights during a time which many think of as the golden era for hevyweights, along with the 70s. during his career he also beat harry greb, who constantly makes these lists as one of the best ever at any weight, 3 times, something no one else ever managed (ok i know greb wasnt a natural heavy but neither was tunney. he had many figths at light heavy including one of his victories for the american light heavy title) and he also beat georges carpentier.

i think historys been a wee bit unfair to the fighting marine.

I think Tunney does get his due as an all-time great; it's just hard to rate him as a heavyweight since he spent just the tail end of his career there, so he is usually left off "heavyweight" lists like these.

Here is my list for what it's worth

1) Ali (higher than Louis based on opposition faced)
2) Louis (Had it all)
3) Johnson (So dominant who knows what size/strength he would be if around today)
4) Dempsey (The ultimate slugger workrate, power and toughness combined)
5) Holmes (Underrated, except on this site )
6) Jefferies (If he had not lost to Johnson past his prime he would never be left out of people's top tens, but then I'm an "old-timer" fan)
7)Marciano (What ever people say about who he fought he was never beaten)
8 ) Tyson (Supreme physical gifts, shame he never realised his potential.)
9) Foreman (Could have beaten any of the others on his day)
10) Lewis (Gets the nod over Holyfeild because he beat him)

J-C wrote:Here is my list for what it's worth

1) Ali (higher than Louis based on opposition faced)
2) Louis (Had it all)
3) Johnson (So dominant who knows what size/strength he would be if around today)
4) Dempsey (The ultimate slugger workrate, power and toughness combined)
5) Holmes (Underrated, except on this site )
6) Jefferies (If he had not lost to Johnson past his prime he would never be left out of people's top tens, but then I'm an "old-timer" fan)
7)Marciano (What ever people say about who he fought he was never beaten)
8 ) Tyson (Supreme physical gifts, shame he never realised his potential.)
9) Foreman (Could have beaten any of the others on his day)
10) Lewis (Gets the nod over Holyfeild because he beat him)

Tyson lost to Holyfield twice though, theirs just no room in the top ten for Mike imo.

Tunney was a career light heavyweight, who beat an old and out of shape Dempsey, who was more concerned with nobbing estelle morris than training or fighting. Dempsey hardly defended his title once he won it, less than once a year on average, he was more impressive on his way up than he was once he got there. However at his best, he seemed to be head and shoulders above anyone else. You have to wonder how well he would have done had the neutral corner rule been in force?

With regards to Johnson and Jeffries, whilst both of them were amazing natural atheletes (especially Jeffries, who looks like a modern fighter, a giant compared to the other heavyweights at the time, and stylistically by all accounts fought out of a modern crouch), they fought under very different rules, so it's anyone's guess how they would have fared. You could even argue the same for Dempsey, due to the neutral corner rule. I find it hard to rate a fighter I have never even seen, and most of whose career is reliant on accounts written at the time, and by later boxing historians.


These are my criteria.

Longevity - How long was the fighter able to maintain
Quality of opposition - Who did they beat, and when, and how?
Title defences - Rates highly with me, as this is the measure of a good champion, however the next below must also be taken into account.
Consistency - How consistent were their performances as champion, how
dominant were they?
Historical Impact - Just how much did they influence the sport.
Skills - How dazzling or unique were their talents?

Johnny Carwash wrote:

BubiScholz wrote:guys, think about the good old Max Schmeling. he is the only one who knocked Louis in the first round out. at his peak in his home country. in a time when everybody in the audiance was against Schmeling. he belongs in an all time top 15.

Schmeling actually knocked Louis out in the 12th or 13th round, not the 1st. Louis knocked Schmeling out in the 1st round in their rematch.

Schmeling still deserves credit for being the only one to beat Louis in his true prime...

Louis was young and green when he lost to Schmelling, he was far from his prime.

Was Tyson better than a man of similar build and intensity: Joe Frazier? People always favour the man at the forefront of the memory. But Joe Frazier was an animal - an animal in the most competitive era for heavies ever.
Smokin' Joe would have stood in Tyson's face and made it a war - a battle of wills. There was only ever one winner.

bennie wrote:Was Tyson better than a man of similar build and intensity: Joe Frazier? People always favour the fighter at the forefront of the memory. But Joe Frazier was an animal - an animal in the most competitive era for heavies ever.
Smokin' Joe woould have stood in Tyson's face and made it a war - a battle of wills. There was only ever one winner.

agreed

People always think of there era as being THE ONE. That being said, Tyson would have been a contender in any era. He would not,however, have been a champion in any other era than the 80's with its list of underacheivers looking to be put out of their misery.

Frazier/Tyson would have been close, but I give it to Joe by a hair. What I would like to have seen is a 21 yr old Tyson vs a Prime Liston. That staredown would have been a thing of beauty

Slapsie

Frazier would have laughed at Tyson's pre-fight intimidation techniques, marched into him at the opening bell, bobbing and weaving, winging the huge left hooks to head and body, shrugging off Tyson's shots and firing right back. Frazier did that for every second, every round. He would have backed Tyson up, made him quit.

Tyson's rare blend of dazzling speed and power, which I don't think any other heavyweight has ever had in such quantity, would have given him a shot of stopping any of the other great heavyweights early in the fight, even Ali, who was never in with a combination puncher like Tyson.

However, mentally, Tyson was probably one of the frailest heavyweight champions of all time after Patterson, and I think any great heavyweight who gets past the first 5-6 with a prime Tyson, has a good chance of stopping him.

One thing which is interesting however. Ali struggled against small fast heavyweights, even in his prime, Tyson was a damned sight quicker than Frazier, and hit every bit as hard, and was a better two fisted fighter too, Ali would by no means have had an easy time with a ball of fire like Tyson, in my humble opinion.

bennie wrote:Frazier would have laughed at Tyson's pre-fight intimidation techniques, marched into him at the opening bell, bobbing and weaving, winging the huge left hooks to head and body, shrugging off Tyson's shots and firing right back. Frazier did that for every second, every round. He would have backed Tyson up, made him quit.

I will play devils advocate here. Frazier never faced anyone even remotely like Tyson in his career, and it must be remembered that Frazier did best against lighter hitting fighters. In his career he never really faced many big punchers, he never fought Shavers or Lyle, and the only really big puncher he faced, devastated him.

Frazier struggled with Ali's speed, and although Tyson didn't have the same movement, his handspeed was just as good, although used in a different way.

It's too easy to dismiss Tyson. Yes Frazier was mentally tough, but I am not convinced he would simply have 'shrugged' those shots off. Frazier's defence wasn't the greatest and no matter how good your chin, Tyson's power was one thing which was all-time great, especially as his combination punching was awesome.

His combination punching was awesome when nobody hit him back.

Frazier would have been in the type of shape Tyson could only dream of in terms of giving and shipping punishment and Joe would have loved not having to chase his opponent around the ring.

Joe v Tyson is a terrific fight and like say Lewis v Holmes you could make an argument either way but if my mortgage was on it, I'd take the real fighter over the 'on-top bully' that Tyson was EVERYTIME.

Frazier.

Imagine 1972 Joe Frazier in the 2004 Hevayweight division.

He'd be the last man standing.

I am not as big a fan of Frazier as most people. Sure, he was tough and determined and a great heavyweight to watch, however, I feel his career is flattered by his showings against a light hitting Ali, whose style suited Frazier as he didn't have the firepower to discourage him.

Frazier's career was pretty brief and there are lots of people he never faced, and I remain unconvinced that Frazier deserves his stature.

I agree that mentally Tyson was weak, but as I say, the fact is I cannot think of another heavyweight in history who combined Tyson's speed and combination punching technique, and lest we forget, his defensive skills were very impressive in his brief prime. This is why I would give him a good chance on any given night of sparking even the heavyweight greats. I would probably discount Foreman from that list though, too big, too tough, too strong, he would have eaten Tyson up. Liston maybe too tough, but he too was a guy who thrived on intimidation.

Anyone who could hold a shot and wouldn't be intimidated had chances against Tyson.

Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis, George Foreman (even in 1995), Sonny Liston, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield would all have beaten him in his prime.

Fighters like Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Marciano and Tunney would be giving away plenty of weight but Tunney outboxed the swarming Dempsey and could have done it to Tyson too (weight differential aside) and you do wonder if Marciano fires back and refuses to be budge what Tyson would have done.

Of course, Archie Moore dropped Marciano so you do wonder whether Marciano could have come through the bombs but....

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I cannot think of another heavyweight in history who combined Tyson's speed and combination punching technique, and lest we forget, his defensive skills were very impressive in his brief prime

You really feel Tyson combined speed and combination punching better than any other heavyweight in history!

I'd favour Tyson over Frazier, mainly because Mike had the better chin. Whatever else his faults, you have to admit Tyson took a pretty good punch.
Foreman aside ( who I'd pick to out gun Tyson ) Joe was rocked to his boots a couple of times - Oscar B had him down twice, and even the relatively light punching Ali almost had him out in the 2nd round of their 2nd fight ( the ref blundered and got Joe off the hook ).

Yes, no way would Joe have been intimidated either, but a fast starter like Mike may have got him early......on the other hand 50/50 fight really.