BoxRec

golden oldie wrote: People claim he was the second coming of Christ because he beat the one dimensional Ruddock for ferks sake. Nuthugging doesn't get much better than that.

I'll say it again Tyson can and probably does beat Vitali prime for prime, but he definitely couldn't afford to have an amoeba night like he did against Douglas.

I am really NOT interested in all the excuses about boozing and screwing women in the build up to the fight. Here is a secret. Even the Mama's Boy Lennox who is very partial to both Brandy & Champagne used to disappear for days at a time during training camps. It is just that he and Manny Steward were a lot better at keeping the lid on it, than the cretins who leeched off Mike Tyson.

I can't say I've heard those claims. Tyson took far too many punches in those fights but showed he could tough it out against the bigger man and take a helluva punch in return. Tyson looked far more 'up' for those fights and prepared than he looked against Douglas.

If you believe Tyson beats Vitali at his best then surely you have to concede Tyson wasn't at his best against Douglas as he would struggle to be Klit on that showing. So if it wasn't that his prep was bad why did he perform the way he did that night? For me it was his lack of prep coupled with the fact that no one gave Douglas a chance in that fight. Tyson has said himself he thought it would be a walkover, Douglas had been beaten by two guys Tyson had beaten (Ferguson and Tucker) and was seen as a warmup fight for Holyfield. What could go wrong? Tyson wasn't 'up' for the fight, he thought he only had to turn up and throw a punch and it would be over. How wrong he was. That doesn't take anything away from Douglas because he fought a great fight. Lewis also took liberties in training for Rahman and looked what happened there.

I could see the Iron Mike of the 80s beating any heavyweight in history. I can't see that with Vitali Klitschko. He was a good boxer, but nothing to be awed about. There's nothing in his arsenal that makes me say "wow!, he is good!"

Pele Reid was able to knock Vitali clean out. Everyone is human. Some times a big puncher might not hurt you but a lighter puncher might. I never saw Holyfield putting Mercer down for instance...or Bert Cooper putting Holyfield down....Tyson is by far greater fighter ,however, depending on the referee could lose to Vitali...

Ah, it's as simple as hitting Tyson back. That's all it takes, apparently. Makes you wonder why he didn't fold when Tillis, Bonecrusher, Thomas, Tucker, Holmes, Tubbs, Bruno and Ruddock belted him in the face.

The idea that Klitschko, who was spent after 6 rounds of throwing vs an old Lewis, could somehow replicate Douglas, who was still throwing volume at a rabid pace in round 10 with no sign of let up, does not stand up to scrutiny.

golden oldie wrote:

Controversial wrote:

golden oldie wrote: People claim he was the second coming of Christ because he beat the one dimensional Ruddock for ferks sake. Nuthugging doesn't get much better than that.

I'll say it again Tyson can and probably does beat Vitali prime for prime, but he definitely couldn't afford to have an amoeba night like he did against Douglas.

I am really NOT interested in all the excuses about boozing and screwing women in the build up to the fight. Here is a secret. Even the Mama's Boy Lennox who is very partial to both Brandy & Champagne used to disappear for days at a time during training camps. It is just that he and Manny Steward were a lot better at keeping the lid on it, than the cretins who leeched off Mike Tyson.

I can't say I've heard those claims. Tyson took far too many punches in those fights but showed he could tough it out against the bigger man and take a helluva punch in return. Tyson looked far more 'up' for those fights and prepared than he looked against Douglas.

If you believe Tyson beats Vitali at his best then surely you have to concede Tyson wasn't at his best against Douglas as he would struggle to be Klit on that showing. So if it wasn't that his prep was bad why did he perform the way he did that night? For me it was his lack of prep coupled with the fact that no one gave Douglas a chance in that fight. Tyson has said himself he thought it would be a walkover, Douglas had been beaten by two guys Tyson had beaten (Ferguson and Tucker) and was seen as a warmup fight for Holyfield. What could go wrong? Tyson wasn't 'up' for the fight, he thought he only had to turn up and throw a punch and it would be over. How wrong he was. That doesn't take anything away from Douglas because he fought a great fight. Lewis also took liberties in training for Rahman and looked what happened there.

I don't accept he was any less prepared for Douglas than he was in his previous 3 fights. The fact that he underestimated his opponent ( the same as Lewis did with Rahman ) is no excuse. He didn't have an answer on the night, despite the judges scoring it is safe to say Tyson was totally beaten that night then KO'd. Lewis on the other hand was ahead going into the 5th then got nailed with one big shot.

I heard he turned down Holyfield in 91 and took on the very one dimensional Ruddock instead. As stated before when he did fight another guy who was prepared to go through whatever it took to win he collapsed again v Holy in 96.

I don't think Vitali has the power that Douglas showed that night in Tokyo, but make no mistake he would turn up to fight, and that could well be the undoing of Tyson whose mental fragility was there for all the world to see.

Even James Toney who was asked who he would like to fight after he won some mickey mouse Cruiser title said Tyson. The interviewer humoured him and asked how he thought he could win,he replied

" Easy, hit the moth******er back, he don't like that. "

I have no interest in what people think of Toney. The fact of the matter is he predicted correctly, because that is exactly what happened in Holyfield 1.

I don't think anyone has ever argued Tyson wasn't well beaten. Fights like that happen, one fighter doesn't take it serious and the other one does, a recipe for disaster. Douglas was in the best shape physically and mentally of his entire career and that was good enough that night, Tyson on the other hand wasn't at his best. I don't agree that all it took was someone to hit Tyson back, in that fight and Holyfield 1 he took big punches throughout the fight and only succumbed late on, on both occasions he could've looked for an easy way out and didn't.

Mike had a great chin, I think that version of Douglas smashes the Tyson from spinks.

Possible, but the Tyson-Spinks fight is quite a small sample.

I could see about Buster Douglas. He gave the blueprint to beat the great Mike Tyson. But, we forgot in that fight also that Buster was quicker. Speed was the key issue. Tyson could not cope with Buster's speed nor the speed of the great Evander Holyfield.

The blueprint to beat Tyson is not to be scared, hit him back, and have speed. Vitali Klitscho may have the two first elements. He didn't had the third one.

Was Tyson the same guy of the 80s in Tokyo? I think not.
Was Douglas motivated? Yes.
Was Tyson motivated? No.
Can we say that a prepared Tyson wins that fight? It would be dumb to say yes, he would have never lost to Douglas. I think Douglas could have beaten him even if Tyson was motivated, too. Or vice versa. It would have been greater fight. I can't take away what Buster did that night. Dismissing that accomplishment is not fair.

I believe that Buster was not in it with Evander. I believe he would have beaten Holyfield if prepared like he did in Tokyo, too. I believe Buster that night would have beaten any heavyweight in history. He was that great.

But, could Vitali do the same thing Buster did?
Could Vitali best performance of his career, which I don't know which performance was, beaten any heavyweight in history? I think not. He doesn't have the necessary speed to beat a great boxer.

Jaywheel wrote:Possible, but the Tyson-Spinks fight is quite a small sample.

Just the one most people point to as his pinnacle. I prefer Thomas myself. Pick any day of his life, same result.

Very close one. I think the odds favour a late rounds beat down win for vk.

[quote="elmersalsa"]I could see the Iron Mike of the 80s beating any heavyweight in history. I can't see that with Vitali Klitschko. He was a good boxer, but nothing to be awed about. There's nothing in his arsenal that makes me say "wow!, he is good!"[/quote]

Can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with this elmer, at least the part in bold.

Klitschko apologists always ignore this point: What could he actually do? What skills did he have to do win this fight?

We get vague comments about him taking over the later rounds (as if it's a given he gets past the middle rounds), but how? With what?

BoxBuzz wrote:C'mon, he almost beat Chris Byrd, and Lennox Lewis....there's two champions right there! And I saw him beat Ed Mahone with my own eyes!

Tuan_Jim wrote: The idea that Klitschko, who was spent after 6 rounds of throwing vs an old Lewis, could somehow replicate Douglas, who was still throwing volume at a rabid pace in round 10 with no sign of let up, does not stand up to scrutiny.

- Ahhhh, Ol' Jimbo back for more fun now is it?


I'm going to take the more informed sentiments of Lewis, Tyson, and Field over the deranged fantasies of neutered Brits and Americans about Vitali first proposing to fight them. Vitali first came a callin' in the US on behalf of he and his brother, but they and the boxing establishment wanted nothing to do with the Klitschkos, because to be fair, the trio were entering into the frail phase of their careers and would rather fight the lessor versions of themselves than immense Russian destroyers. And they were correct since the Klitschkos have left western heavyweight boxing in the shambles of a manhood crisis for almost 20 years now. Lewis finally gave Vitali a short notice fight to settle the 3 judgments Vitali had won against him and still bricked it but for the most fortunate all time horrid cut that has yet to be duplicated in the division since. So Lewis got lucky and didn't want to press his luck for all the gold in boxing.

Lets also add that Lewis had been in extensive training in two separate training camps and was planning on 5 more fights before retiring, but he scrapped those plans and the biggest purse of his career to rush into retirement than be forced into the rematch.

And yep, Tyson ducked Foreman, it's in the books, and if you sweeties can't see Foreman must of given umpteen interviews saying that was his goal, well, no surprise the lot of you are blind in one eye and can see out of the other. Same deal with Tyson going through 3 phases, the latter two of them declines. The dishonorable of you bunch always pick the mentally compromised, sedative incapacitated version of Tyson being robbed by King for any Tyson fantasy fight, but the worst of Tyson and Vitali was 100% better than the last 4 Ali fights.

Prime to prime, best to best, VK vs MT, that'd be a tough fight to call. Tyson had the assets to cancel out bigger, stronger fighters, and Vitali obviously had the assets to cancel out smaller, weaker fighters no matter how good, so it'd be a crap shoot, but remember a monkey can make a choice and have a 50% chance of being just as right as most of the dummies posting here.

I fail to understand why people are so angry about lewis' decision to retire when he did. He beat literally every single significant contender and champion of his era except for four: bowe (who wouldnt fight him), foreman (lose/lose situation against an old man with frightening power at 50 who wasnt interested in being outboxed), moore (lost to guys he beat), and, byrd (no money, no belt).

Lennox showed up out of shape on short notice and still beat the crap out of the younger vitali despite being outboxed and gassing. Again, there was literally no one else to fight and he was nearly 40 with his mental faculties intact, legacy secure, and tens of millions in the bank. What more do you want from a champion???

As for the thread, prime Tyson thoroughly outboxes vitali and/or stops him late similar to the smith and thomas fights. Post prison tyson of the seldon/holyfield era would duke it out with vitali in a thrilling war. He probably doesnt have the energy to stop him because he will need to throw combinations to get rid of such a tall sturdy guy. If vitali makes it out of the 5th, he might end up doing the stopping (mostly due to tysons fatigue).

golden oldie wrote:

Cygnus475 wrote:

As for the thread, prime Tyson thoroughly outboxes vitali and/or stops him late similar to the smith and thomas fights. Post prison tyson of the seldon/holyfield era would duke it out with vitali in a thrilling war. He probably doesnt have the energy to stop him because he will need to throw combinations to get rid of such a tall sturdy guy. If vitali makes it out of the 5th, he might end up doing the stopping (mostly due to tysons fatigue).

We are all entitled to our opinion, but could you possibly give us an example of a stumpy little short armed guy who only weighed 215 - 220 that thoroughly out boxed Vitali?

Better yet someone of the same stature who even put him on his ass, much less stopped him?

-Dempsey stopped willard 245 lbs 6'6
-Louis stopped buddie baer and carnera 250 lbs plus 6'6
-tyson himself has stopped or dropped tall rangy fighters like holmes and golota 6'3 6'4 230-250 lbs

Its possible in the heavyweight division. Timing, speed, accuracy, leverage, balance, etc.

I could ask you the reverse: when did vitali ever beat a short but stocky and fast heavyweight with blinding combinations, head movement, a solid chin, and frightening power? The answer is never, hence why we're debating this because neither fought a guy just like the other.

Vitali never displayed stupendous ring iq or p4p skill or technique. He got by on his ridiculous height, reach, chin, and keeping his opponent at range while battering and clubbing them half to death with arm punches.

Tyson was one of the hardest heavyweights to hit cleanly--it would be even harder for an awkward guy like vitali who lacks in coordination, combinations, and finesse. And vitali was never a 1-punch k.o artist despite his k.o percentage. His only chance would be to do what he does best, make it an ugly fight, lean on tyson, tie him up, tire him out and take it to the later rounds to slug it out.

Probably a nice read if someone is interested in bullshite

.

*sigh* here we go

Klitchko beat every man he ever fought with 2 exceptions.

Its easy to do that when you fight in one of the worst eras of heavyweight boxing.

One was a guy 3 inches taller than Tyson, with 3 inches in reach, and the other one was so much bigger, heavier, and with so many dimensional advantages over Tyson, it simply isn't worthy of discussion. Suffice to say NO ONE as insignificantly little as Tyson ever bothered Vitali.

Chris byrd was slightly taller than tyson...your point being? Tyson was stronger, faster, more durable than byrd so what conclusion are you trying to reach?

Are you saying that because the only two people to beat vitali were taller than tyson that somehow proves that theres no way vitali would lose to fighters shorter than the ones who beat him??? That is incredibly flawed and silly.

Byrd and lewis fought nothing like tyson and had different builds and style. Vitali never fought anyone remotely similar to tyson except for samuel peter who lacked the defense, speed, combinations, body shots, and ring iq of tyson.

Conversely, guys smaller, as well as nearly as big as Vitali splattered Tyson like a child.

What is so difficult about that for you to understand?

Nobody ever splattered tyson "like a child". Douglass and holyfield both went through 10 and 11 gruelling rounds to stop him--douglass suffered a knockdown and fought the best fight of his life and had never been in better shape. it took lewis 8 rounds to stop a washed up old tyson after dozens of jabs and overight hands after tying him up and leaning on him like a groupie.

You're putting way too much emphasis on size. Tyson has beaten guys bigger than the people who beat him so there goes your size agenda. Holyfield was only 6'2. Conversely, tyson made short work of guys much taller than holyfield like the 6'5 240 pound gold medalist tyrell biggs and the bronze medalist 6'4 240 pound golota. he knocked out the 6'5 240 pound saverese in the 1st round. he easily decisioned green, 6'4 smith, and the 6'5 245 pound tony tucker. so, lol at this whole "bigger fighter always wins" theory.

As for your assumption that Tyson was one of the " hardest hitting heavyweights ever " tell that to Buster Douglas, Vander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Danny Williams, Kevin McBride, and they are only the guys who knocked him the FERK OUT, never mind the ones who went the distance with him.

you're putting words in my mouth, i said he was one of the hardest to hit cleanly in his prime (emphasis here on his prime). which is true. very few heavyweights were more evasive or had better defense and no one had better head movement.

what would be so crazy with claiming tyson was one of the hardest punchers? he makes it on almost anyones top ten list.

anyway, its obvious you are incredibly biased against tyson. nobody uses his losses to danny effing williams and kevin mcbride when he was way past his prime. thats about as fair as judging ali off his performance against holmes in a fantasy fight.

Beating the crap out of junkies, alcoholics, weirdo's, cowards, and old guys does NOT make you the most fearsome fighter who ever lived. Despite the best efforts of the promotions department of a TV company.

let me guess, you're one of those people who think tyson is a fraud and didnt beat a single decent fighter...?

this is hilarious considering how terrible vitali's resume is.

Vitali all day long

At what sport? Basketball?

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Tyson is a class above Vitali.......................Tyson at his best destroys Vitali in 3

Lets see... Vitali Klitschko was never knocked down or behind on points in any fight in his career... The only 2 fights he ever lost were due to injury -- those were fights he was WINNING on ALL SCORECARDS at the finish ... and that Includes Vitali's fight with Lennox Lewis who was older than Mike Tyson but easily jabbed Mike to death every single round -- easily winning every round before knocking Tyson down and OUT for the 10-count... NOTHING NEW.. Tyson was knocked down several times and stopped 5 times and fought til he was 38... Vitali Klitschko was never knocked down and never behind on points and fought until he was 41.

Not only that, but a 23 year old Tyson got beaten up and trashed by a 42-1 underdog who'd been knocked out several times because he had a glass chin.. Tyson's punches had little effect on the chinny Buster Douglas or Lennox Lewis.. Mike was the boy getting knocked out on both occasions.. Vitali would beat Mike up and batter him out, much like he did to the never previously stopped Sam Peter, 31-1, when he was 37 and fighting his 1st fight in 4 years.. The reason is VK is much MUCH bigger, taller, stronger, tougher, more skilled, and much harder to hit than little Mikey was.

I have always maintained that Louis and Ali, and a handful of others were better than Tyson and would have beaten him.

But wait a minute. Tyson weighed more than Louis, Dempsey and Ali, so he had to be better right? All we have to do is look at the what scale says, right?

You are right. It is ferking hilarious. So once again in case you have learning difficulties.

NAME ONE LITTLE STUMPY SHORT ARMED GUY THAT BEAT VITALI.

I don't need to prove ANYTHING. Vitali lost TWICE. Once to a guy 4 inches taller than Tyson with a longer reach,( but just to make your little ego feel good we will forget the scoring, and the circumstances ) and once to a comparative GIANT as far as stumpy Tyson is concerned.

Are you too stupid to understand? Vitali Klitchko NEVER lost to someone as little as Mike Tyson.

Tyson never lost to a guy over 6'5. Therefore, hed never lose to the likes of vitali, carnera, etc.

Hagler never lost to a heavyweight. Therefore, he'd beat any heavyweight.

See, i can make stupid cases too.

1. How do you turn the 228 Biggs into 240?

Is that what his weight was when he fought tyson? Oh. Doesnt really matter though, tyson has beaten guys who are near vitali in height and weight. Vitali never beat an explosive, fast combination puncher like tyson. Vitali would be out of his element and not the other way around.

2. So you want to claim the shot to shite Golota, and Savarese wins as great, but dismiss the Williams, and McBride defeats as aberrations.

Golota was 32 years old with a record of 36 (29 k.os)-4 and had won 5 of his last 6 fights. Thats hardly what i would call "shot". Most boxers would love to retire with a record like that.

Ditto for Saverese. He had a decent record.

You know you're full of crap counting the mcbride and williams fights against tyson.

Try to get this into your brain. What I said was Tyson lost to guys who were bigger AND WANTED TO FIGHT BACK, AS OPPOSED TO TRYING TO SURVIVE. The FACTS and STATS are there for EVERYONE ( except Tyson fanboys ) to see.

So Ruddock, Tillis, Thomas, Holmes, and Berbick werent fighting back they just wanted to survive? Lol.

The stats show Lennox Lewis and Douglas were the only "big" heavyweights he lost to--and unless you're biased you know he was past his prime against Lewis.

Douglas and Vitali had nothing in common other than being tall. Douglas used a stick and move strategy, threw uppercuts and clinched on the inside, fought backing up and threw grear t fast combinations.

Vitali was a tall awkward plodding arm puncher who lacked ring iq and relied on his height, chin, and and strength to wear his opponent down.

To say Vitali could beat Tyson based on the Douglas fight is hilariously innaccurate. Vitali isnt gonna be on his toes circling Tyson and using his jab. If this was a prime Wladmir you could make a case for that but youve obviously never seen Vitalu fight if you think hed beat tyson that way.

Here are some more facts for you bub: everyone who beat tyson or made him struggle waited for him to get tired, tied him up, smothered him, and waited for his power to drain. They used a fast powerful jab and good footwork--two qualities vitali doesnt have.

I have always maintained that Louis and Ali, and a handful of others were better than Tyson and would have beaten him.

But wait a minute. Tyson weighed more than Louis, Dempsey and Ali, so he had to be better right? All we have to do is look at the what scale says, right?

Exactly, this guy must be kalans cousin or his dupe.

Tyson often had difficulty with exceptionally tall guys even if they weren't the most skilled. I think Vitali withstands Tyson's early assaults, and beats him up on his way to a UD over the latter half of the fight.

I can't see Vitali outboxing Iron Mike
I can't see Vitali knocking out Iron Mike
I can't see him being faster than Iron Mike

I see Tyson winning on points

golden oldie wrote: One of the aforementioned dummies being you. I would rather take the word of Lewis himself than some clown who
" thinks " he knows the inner thoughts of a fighter. LL made no secret of the fact he was under pressure from both of the Violets in his life to retire. He staved off that pressure by claiming his legacy wouldn't be fully intact until he had beaten Tyson. That fight was so easy despite the best efforts of Eddie Cotton, that of course Lewis could have convinced the ladies involved that a rematch with the New Yorker would be even more money for old rope.

That was the fight he was angling for. He obviously believed that Vitali was worth little more effort than Kirk Johnson in training camp and turned up over weight and not in top condition. He still won, and luck had less than ferk all to do with it. He persistently punched Vitali's dial causing it to need 60 stitches. It was a sloppy performance by his standards so it is far from rocket science to understand that both his mother and his wife had enough influence to persuade him the effort required to get in top shape for the new kids on the block didn't appear to be forthcoming.

All that bollox from you about him rushing into retirement, is merely that. Bollox. The man simply listened to the two people HE considers to be important as opposed to agenda driven morons on internet sites, or magazines.

- Goldie oldie growing greenish gray moldy as he sticks up his thumb to pull out a plum to declare, "What a good boy am I."


Lewis had two separate training camps. He was interviewed the week before the Vitali fight feeling the arrogance of those camps by beating on his chest about 5 fights before retirement. The Link is buried on my virus destroyed computer and likely dead anyway, but here is a link from March 2003 AFTER he flew Manny over for a 2 week prefight evaluation camp bolstered with a light workout plan in advance of his regular camp. He had 3 ambitious fights planned then, Vitali, the Tyson rematch, and then Wlad that would have taken him to into 2004. I also included the Byrd duck recompense by King. Lewis rearranged the whole order to ultimately quit it, retiring in a whimper days before the WBC were to strip him for not rematching Vitali after agreeing to. Vitali is the one who became WBC Emeritus and Eternal Champ, not Lewis.

The Violets talked him out of fighting on AFTER Vitali beat the bricks out of him, not before. Yup, the dimmest of my dum is all I need to trump your smarmy cleverness disguising the absence of a single original thought in your vacuous venal life. Do at least try to follow the timeline and your worm won't be so nakedly exposed.

So, how many highest career weights did Lewis log and what were the results?

Easy answer is debut at 231 followed by 233, 234 in a row 1989, then 235 in 1993, 238 in 1994, 248 in 1995, 251 in 1997, 253 in 2001, 256 in 2003. His record for those fights is 7-2, the two losses being early one punch KOs by Grade B heavies where he otherwise took no punishment and had scarcely worked up a sweat they were so breezy, so any excessive weight or lack of training played no factor. He got careless. It happens just like you and your ilk do.

Now I personally found Lewis to be far more agreeable than I did 2.0 and 3.0 versions of Tyson, Field, or big Dummy, but he was also outboxed a couple more times by inferiors and lucky with decisions and had to pull out all his dirty tricks to beat Vitali once his eye opened up. And I could care less about all your little hissy@handbagsnitfits you excel in. I'm only log on here to access the overall content of boxrec or to provide more accurate context than your self inflated bowels could ever heave forth, so bug off. You're the very definition of a pest scarcely worth a squirt of bug spray or even a slimy splattering.

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/mar/15 ... p-boxcol15

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/ ... ng.comment