BoxRec

topman wrote:people talk about greb being no1 middle ever,but thats jus going on what theyve heard,i believe as far as p4p middles go,u cant get better than hagler and hopkins,not 2 mention roy jones who has more talent than any middle past or present,and if stayed around in that division long enough would in my opinion have been no.1.(jus cant get better).

So we should discount everything thats been written or said about the man because we cant see him? I have no film of the North winning the Civil War but Im pretty damn sure they DID. We have footage of Tunney who Greb beat. We have footage of Jack Delaney, Paul Berlenbach, George Carpentier, Young Stribling, and Battling Siki all of whom refused to fight Greb. We have footage of Jimmy Slattery, Augie Ratner, AL McCoy, Mike O'Dowd, Mike Gibbons, Tommy Gibbons, George KO Brown, George Chip, Battling Levinsky, Kid Norfolk, Eddie McGoorty, Bill Brennen, Mike McTigue, Bartley Madden, Ted Jamieson, Tommy Loughran, Frank Moody, Roland Todd, Ted Moore, Mickey Walker and others who Greb fought and either beat or held his own with so I think we have a pretty good idea how good Greb was. When Hopkins and Hagler can boast of beating HOFers like: Tunney, Loughran, Walker, Rosenbloom, the Gibbons Brothers, then maybe I'll consider them as close to Greb but in about 100 fights between them theyve each got a handfull of HOF names on their record and lets not forget that with Greb his record often boasts of those names over a series of several bouts.

One of these days, some film will turn up and give us all a more accurate assessment of Greb's talent. It's mind-boggling that not one single round of action is extant of the great Harry Greb. You'd almost think that someone went around and destroyed what films there were. As for the scared HOFers, I always have trouble with statements that certain fighters refused to fight certain other fighters. I just don't see it. In that era even a points loss was no big deal, never mind a No Decision. Especially if there was no film of the fight.

Cap

You can believe what you want Cap but Carpentier wouldnt even spar with Greb. Siki refused a SIGNED contract to fight Greb three times. Jack Delaney turned down three title shots at Grebs middleweight championship when he was the top middleweight contender. Young Stribling backed out of a huge bout with Greb just days before the match was scheduled to take place giving no explanation at all. Mike McTigue was dominated in his two matches with Greb so easily that while champion he wouldnt even consider a match with Greb and Paul Berlenbach constantly talked tough about Greb, yet despite the fact that Greb wanted Berlenbach above all others and a huge offer by Tex Rickard Berlenbach wouldnt sign to fight Greb. To say a points loss or a no decision loss was no big deal is just silly. Bets hinged on those fights, promotions were built on those fights, contenders were decided from those fights, and matches were made or broken by the outcome of those fights.

i dont want you give all your greb secrets away klompton but seems you are about the closest thing to a greb officianado there appears to be i`ve got to ask you about THE fight.
i heard that after their bout walker and greb met up at texas guinans night club in new york, spending the evening drinking with their hostess miss guinan, discussing everything but boxing.
but when they left together aparently walker told greb that he thought he (walker) won the fight. greb apparently tried to take his coat off but mickey slugged him whilst his arms were still in the coat.
greb though thrown against the car, quickly recovered and flung himself at mickey were they both fought like demons, rolling on the pavement outside the nightclub. the fight continued until a giant irish american policeman called pat casey seperated them and put them in seperate taxi`s.
i also heard mickey said as he was getting into the taxi "that punch would have knocked anyone esle out but greb"
is this true or just another old chestnut of the fight game?

Its false. The story was probably invented by Doc Kearns who could not be in Walkers corner the night of the fight due to a ruling against him by the NYSAC on his refusal to match Dempsey with With Wills. Kearns was forced to listen to the fight via radio broadcast at a local speakeasy.

Walker was taken immediately to the county hospital after the Greb fight were he spent several hours getting stitched up and administered to. Afterwards he was taken back to his hotel room where his sparring partners and cornermen took turns putting icepacks on his face.

i dont know how many people i`ve told that story to, i`ve lost count.
i must admit i feel a bit deflated because that little yarn seemed to encapsulate just how tough those two guys were, but hey, they were certainly two fella`s who didnt need the spin doctors to put positive slants on their legendary toughness. their records speak for themselves.
thanks for the info klompton.
best of luck with the book.

Dont let the fact that story is false deflate your impression of either Walker or Greb. If anything their actual fight in the ring serves to encapsulate their toughness. Walker took a tremendous beating in that fight yet stayed on his feet and went on to have a tremendous career. Greb, despite being a good three or four years past his prime fought off the early roaring attack of Walker to actually outlast, outspeed, outpunch, and outgut the younger, smaller, and supposedly harder hitting Walker. Plenty of other great stories about both of these men actually DID take place and they typify the times, the men, and the sensationalism of their careers as well if not better than any ballyhoo that Walker told so many times he came to believe it.

klompton wrote:Dont let the fact that story is false deflate your impression of either Walker or Greb. If anything their actual fight in the ring serves to encapsulate their toughness. Walker took a tremendous beating in that fight yet stayed on his feet and went on to have a tremendous career. Greb, despite being a good three or four years past his prime fought off the early roaring attack of Walker to actually outlast, outspeed, outpunch, and outgut the younger, smaller, and supposedly harder hitting Walker. Plenty of other great stories about both of these men actually DID take place and they typify the times, the men, and the sensationalism of their careers as well if not better than any ballyhoo that Walker told so many times he came to believe it.

I think that the biggest factor of Greb Beating Walker was his edge in speed.... from what I've read and heard Greb was extremely fast in his attacks and not as easy to hit as many would think.

Greb took Walker into deep water and drowned him. It wasnt speed alone that beat Walker. It was speed, size, strength, and ring smarts. Greb was a great tactician. He knew that Walker would come on strong early and he let Walker force the fight for about four rounds. After that Greb took over and never looked back. His legendary stamina allowed him to carry out pace (even this late in his career) that was so fast people thought he would burn himself out. Instead he burned out Walker.

klompton, do you reckon the likes of carpentier, stribling, delaney and siki refused to fight greb because of grebs reputation of being a dirty fighter?
(then again apparently siki had bats performing aerobatics in the old belfry so i cant see that being a issue in his case)
just a thought.

Greb didnt have a reputation as a dirty fighter until late in his career and then only in New York city was where he was disliked by the press (who were in the hip-pocket of Billy Gibson, Gene Tunneys manager who had a lot to do with spreading the idea that Greb was dirty).

Carpentier didnt want to fight Greb because A. He would lose, B. If he was going to lose he could do it against people like Dempsey who could get him PAID, and C. Because if he lost to someone like Greb who was smaller or close to his size it would have been hard for Descamps to resurrect Carp's reputation for the umpteenth time. Frankly I dont have much respect for Carpentier other than what he did for French boxing (which was basically start it). He was a one dimensional fighter who was beaten by the best men he fought. His two biggest wins over international talents (gunboat smith and battling levinsky) are quite tainted IMO.

I think the case with Stribling was similar. His father was simply picking and choosing his opponents for him at that time and it was likely that they thought a shot against some of the guys at light heavyweight would be an easier proposition than a shot at a guy like Greb who was tough, slippery, and made you fight every minute, factor that in with having to make weight and youve got yourself the makings of a Stribling loss.

I really dont know why Siki turned down that offer. Greb signed three seperate contracts to fight Siki and everytime Siki refused. Siki was just nuts. Instead he fights Mike McTigue in Dublin on St. Patricks Day. Go figure. When he came to the USA and fought and could have been matched with Greb he ends up losing his biggest fights and even quitting in at least one saying "Im not getting paid anything for this, I quit". How do you figure a guy like that?

Delaney is the toughest one to figure. Even tougher than Siki. The guy got his shot at Greb by twice KOing Flowers (BTW he weighed less than Flowers in those fights contrary to popular opinion). Everytime they made the match Delaney came up "sick". Delaney was a well rounded boxer/puncher and probably would have had the best chance of the bunch on paper (on paper mind you). Again, its possible that his people decided simply to go after what was considered easier game at Light heavyweight.

Remember, when Greb lost his title in 1926, despite being nearly blind, having fought nearly 300 bouts, and slowing down considerably there wasnt much end in sight to his reign. His loss was an upset. So despite their notieriety today, non of these guys would have been a favorite over Greb and in the case of Carpentier and Stribling, I dont think either had a chance in hell of beating him. Siki in my opinion would have gone the distance but he would have been outpointed by a mile and as I said before, Delaney posed a threat but Grebs speed, stamina, and experience probably would have proven too much for him as well. Its impossible to predict but these guys werent idiots and neither were their managers. Win lose or draw Greb meant a rough ROUGH night for anyone and a lot of fighters simply opted for a less taxing fight than go fifteen rounds with the windmill.