BoxRec

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

daviddee wrote:Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

Except Lennox Lewis

Who lost against Oliver McCall.

Which suggests Vitali didn't hit as hard as McCall or Rahman.

Lewis beat everyone he ever faced. His defeats were down to himself, that's why it was so easy for him to rectify the mistakes in the rematches. Even Rahman basically admitted as much and that's why nobody clamoured for a rubber match. They all knew Lewis had way too much for him when he was at it.

Lewis was way past it by the VK fight. It might be argued that VK wasn't exactly at his peak either yet.

FWIW I favour Lewis every time. Even at his worst, he still had enough to stop him.

lillywhite14 wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
Except Lennox Lewis

Who lost against Oliver McCall.

Which suggests Vitali didn't hit as hard as McCall or Rahman.

Lewis beat everyone he ever faced. His defeats were down to himself, that's why it was so easy for him to rectify the mistakes in the rematches. Even Rahman basically admitted as much and that's why nobody clamoured for a rubber match. They all knew Lewis had way too much for him when he was at it.

I suggest you to look at the Lewis - McCall fight, for me that wasn't a serious victory. The other way around somehow, McCall smashed Lewis to the ground.

McCall and Vitali are the only succesfull heavyweight boxers I know that have never been on the ground.

Suggest I watch McCall - Lewis 2. Thanks, I've seen it plenty of times. Its a tragic fight, and not one I enjoy watching to be honest.

Vitali was technically knocked down v Sanders in the first round of their fight but the ref didn't call it. Sanders wasn't meant to win that fight so it called a slip despite Vitali being in a fair bit of trouble at the time. McCall has a head made of concrete. He could fight until he was 70 and never be knocked down!

ginty wrote:For some reason boxing is the only sport where many hold old fighters as these mythical monsters it doesn't happen in other sports no one thinks say Stanley Mathews is a better footballer than messi or more recent Carl Lewis is faster than usain bolt but in boxing if you said Golovkin would beat grebb then you are called crazy. Even in the time since Tyson we have learnt so much about diet and nutrition never mind going back to the 30's or 40's .

And yet nowadays we have plenty of boxers not fit enough to fight for 12 rounds, let alone 15.

Especially heavyweights with their low punch output and bitch tits lumbering around the ring.

Thank fornicate for modern nutrition

Unless you mean heavyweights have learnt to stay away from crack as part of their nutrition then yes, today's fighters are ahead of their 80's counterparts

Size matters and whilst I don't believe pound for pound modern fighters are vastly better many of the old heavies would simply have been too small for todays division- Marciano and Henry Cooper being obvious examples. As for Tyson- Vitali, Tyson wasn't great against very tall fighters so I would shade Vitali although I think Tyson would beat Wladimir owing to Klitschko jr's chin.

rm1 wrote:Size matters and whilst I don't believe pound for pound modern fighters are vastly better many of the old heavies would simply have been too small for todays division- Marciano and Henry Cooper being obvious examples. As for Tyson- Vitali, Tyson wasn't great against very tall fighters so I would shade Vitali although I think Tyson would beat Wladimir owing to Klitschko jr's chin.

Size difference or not, Marciano would have fvcking brutalised Wlad.

Boxerbeetle wrote:

rm1 wrote:Size matters and whilst I don't believe pound for pound modern fighters are vastly better many of the old heavies would simply have been too small for todays division- Marciano and Henry Cooper being obvious examples. As for Tyson- Vitali, Tyson wasn't great against very tall fighters so I would shade Vitali although I think Tyson would beat Wladimir owing to Klitschko jr's chin.

Size difference or not, Marciano would have fvcking brutalised Wlad.

How would the easy to hit, tiny guy (5'10, 67 inch reach, could easily cut to 175) do against Vitali? How would the guys I mentioned in my previous post, as well as Ward and Kov, do against VK?

ginty wrote:For some reason boxing is the only sport where many hold old fighters as these mythical monsters it doesn't happen in other sports no one thinks say Stanley Mathews is a better footballer than messi or more recent Carl Lewis is faster than usain bolt but in boxing if you said Golovkin would beat grebb then you are called crazy. Even in the time since Tyson we have learnt so much about diet and nutrition never mind going back to the 30's or 40's .

There are definitely a fair number who go overboard with fighters from older generations. I hear great stuff about someone like Jack 'Hugs' Johnson, but I find it hard to believe that unbiased people could watch footage of him and conclude that fighters like the Klitschkos wouldnt be in his league. In the case HWs, a lot of these guys also built reputations fighting opponents who would be cruisers, light heavys, or even super middleweights today (would Kov or Ward beat the best contemporary HWs?). I think there is a lot of lazy analysis when it comes to intergenerational comparison, with many observors simply picking based on the historical reputations others have ascribed to given fighters, rather than what each fighter would actually bring to a contest.

Incidentally, when it comes to sports decided on an objective basis, like duration of completion or weight lifted, what proportion of records have stood for many decades?

daviddee wrote:Lewis had completely gassed.. As for the stronger punches he was being rocked every time Vitali hit him.. He was using the inside of his glove and his head.. He knew Vitali had the beating of him that why he retired.. It was such a shock retiring he had 2-3 years left. In saying that he done the right thing as people still think he would of beat Vitali..

Lewis was not rocked at all. He dropped his guard in round 3 and literally walked through his punches to land his own. I suggest you watch the fight again.

Steward had said in the run into the fight that Lewis was struggling for motivation and hadn't trained well. Even so and at the tail end of a long career he still pulled out the win and was coming on strong from round 4 on.

crusader wrote:I think there is a lot of lazy analysis when it comes to intergenerational comparison, with many observors simply picking based on the historical reputations others have ascribed to given fighters, rather than what each fighter would actually bring to a contest.

It's a limited comparison, but you can daisy-chain through the ages a bit. Holmes beat the end-of-career Ali, and Tyson beat the unfit Holmes... We saw how forty-something Foreman fared against the young Holyfield, and so on. You can link back to Patterson, pretty much.

Moore links Patterson to Marciano, but there is a gap around that time, and I've always felt that Rocky bookended the old-school era.

Mike Tyson asked you if you could beat Klitscho in your prime?

Autobarn wrote:Mike Tyson asked you if you could beat Klitscho in your prime?

I met him in Vegas last week and he didn't ask me about Vitali.

We did have a chat about Joshua though

Hahahaha

I can remember Mike saying that he doubted very much if he could beat them, he was clearly impressed by the brothers.

crusader wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:

rm1 wrote:Size matters and whilst I don't believe pound for pound modern fighters are vastly better many of the old heavies would simply have been too small for todays division- Marciano and Henry Cooper being obvious examples. As for Tyson- Vitali, Tyson wasn't great against very tall fighters so I would shade Vitali although I think Tyson would beat Wladimir owing to Klitschko jr's chin.

Size difference or not, Marciano would have fvcking brutalised Wlad.

How would the easy to hit, tiny guy (5'10, 67 inch reach, could easily cut to 175) do against Vitali? How would the guys I mentioned in my previous post, as well as Ward and Kov, do against VK?

Imo Vitali would have beaten Sullivan, Marciano, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Schmelling & Dempsey. I suppose he would start as favourite against the others you listed because of his size advantage, but I could easily imagine him getting outboxed by them.

Autobarn wrote:Hahahaha

It's actually true!

He didn't seem too impressed overall with Joshua. He likes his power and said he's looked great coming forward against the guys he's fought but that he'd love to have fought him. No headmovement, very stiff. He actually did a little Tyson peek a boo bob/weave whilst talking about Joshua's lack of movement, he called me brother and gave me a hug. Highlight of my trip by a mile

Boxerbeetle wrote:

crusader wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:
Size difference or not, Marciano would have fvcking brutalised Wlad.

How would the easy to hit, tiny guy (5'10, 67 inch reach, could easily cut to 175) do against Vitali? How would the guys I mentioned in my previous post, as well as Ward and Kov, do against VK?

Imo Vitali would have beaten Sullivan, Marciano, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Schmelling & Dempsey. I suppose he would start as favourite against the others you listed because of his size advantage, but I could easily imagine him getting outboxed by them.

I find it hard to predict how well Jeffries would get on against modern day fighters. He was a big, powerful man, certainly for the time, and only ever lost when way past his best. I always think he'd do well against the bigger guys of the modern era.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

daviddee wrote:Lewis had completely gassed.. As for the stronger punches he was being rocked every time Vitali hit him.. He was using the inside of his glove and his head.. He knew Vitali had the beating of him that why he retired.. It was such a shock retiring he had 2-3 years left. In saying that he done the right thing as people still think he would of beat Vitali..

Lewis was not rocked at all. He dropped his guard in round 3 and literally walked through his punches to land his own. I suggest you watch the fight again.

Steward had said in the run into the fight that Lewis was struggling for motivation and hadn't trained well. Even so and at the tail end of a long career he still pulled out the win and was coming on strong from round 4 on.

Obviously watching a different fight.. Conmentators are biased to Lewis and saying he's done.. One big punch from Vitali abc it would of been over.. Don't let bias get in the way of the truth.. So many people just buy into boxing Hype not many have their own opinions.. Too many sheep not enough shepherds

What do people regard as Vitali's best win? His resume isn't exactly littered with stiff competition.

daviddee wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

daviddee wrote:Lewis had completely gassed.. As for the stronger punches he was being rocked every time Vitali hit him.. He was using the inside of his glove and his head.. He knew Vitali had the beating of him that why he retired.. It was such a shock retiring he had 2-3 years left. In saying that he done the right thing as people still think he would of beat Vitali..

Lewis was not rocked at all. He dropped his guard in round 3 and literally walked through his punches to land his own. I suggest you watch the fight again.

Steward had said in the run into the fight that Lewis was struggling for motivation and hadn't trained well. Even so and at the tail end of a long career he still pulled out the win and was coming on strong from round 4 on.

Obviously watching a different fight.. Conmentators are biased to Lewis and saying he's done.. One big punch from Vitali abc it would of been over.. Don't let bias get in the way of the truth.. So many people just buy into boxing Hype not many have their own opinions.. Too many sheep not enough shepherds

If someone has a different ( and imo completely accurate ) opinion to yours, resort to insults and blame officials/commentary bias?

Lewis took everything Vitali had that night and was still standing upright and firing back with just as many punches. It showed Vitali didn't hit as hard as some like to think. That along with not being able to stop old man Briggs doesn't sit too well on his record. A record with no real victory over a level B heavyweight on it, let alone A level.
Could it be that Samuel Peter or Chris Arreola are Vitali's best wins? It's a shame he never got to face anything like an elite heavy after old man Lewis. Would have cleared up a lot of these questions about how good he might have been.
I've always fancied a few names in modern heavyweight history would give Vitali all he could handle. Thomas, Ruddock, Mercer being a handful of names. I could easily see Vitali dropping a decision or two against such fighters, prime for prime.

The best version of Witherspoon would certainly give vitali hell. To name but one.

lillywhite14 wrote:

daviddee wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Lewis was not rocked at all. He dropped his guard in round 3 and literally walked through his punches to land his own. I suggest you watch the fight again.

Steward had said in the run into the fight that Lewis was struggling for motivation and hadn't trained well. Even so and at the tail end of a long career he still pulled out the win and was coming on strong from round 4 on.

Obviously watching a different fight.. Conmentators are biased to Lewis and saying he's done.. One big punch from Vitali abc it would of been over.. Don't let bias get in the way of the truth.. So many people just buy into boxing Hype not many have their own opinions.. Too many sheep not enough shepherds

If someone has a different ( and imo completely accurate ) opinion to yours, resort to insults and blame officials/commentary bias?

Lewis took everything Vitali had that night and was still standing upright and firing back with just as many punches. It showed Vitali didn't hit as hard as some like to think. That along with not being able to stop old man Briggs doesn't sit too well on his record. A record with no real victory over a level B heavyweight on it, let alone A level.
Could it be that Samuel Peter or Chris Arreola are Vitali's best wins? It's a shame he never got to face anything like an elite heavy after old man Lewis. Would have cleared up a lot of these questions about how good he might have been.
I've always fancied a few names in modern heavyweight history would give Vitali all he could handle. Thomas, Ruddock, Mercer being a handful of names. I could easily see Vitali dropping a decision or two against such fighters, prime for prime.

Great post