FAO Kalan

[APerno]

Joe Frazier was the champion going in, he held the title, thats a fact, what you've just said makes no difference as far as my post was concerned

What fact? Because some sanctioning body tells you so, you get in line and call it a fact? - Think of it this way, if Frazier had lost that night in '71, any list today that would have his name on it as heavyweight champion would also have to include Jimmy Ellis and Ernie Terrell, and that is no list at all.

Who held the title??

If Vitali decided to come back and fight Wilder,who would you consider the challenger?

I hope you don’t think I am piling on with this post; I hope you take it in the spirit I mean it, just fodder for debate. . . but the question you asked me, (the conundrum you challenged me with, Vitale-Wilder,) got me thinking, how could I challenge the sanctioning body argument with a similar, but reverse conundrum, and I realized Mike Tyson is perfect, his run-up to the title was both sanctioned and lineal. So here is the question, (I am not trying to lead you; I am curious as to how someone with your opinion viewed this situation.)

When was Mike Tyson Heavyweight Champion of the World?

• Was it after the Berbick fight when he won the WBC belt?
• Was it after the Smith fight when he won the WBA belt?
• Was it after the Tucker fight when he won the IBF belt?
• Was it after the Spinks fight when he won lineal recognition?

After the Tucker fight, HBO invented a new title called “The Unified Heavyweight Champion of the World.” They knew they couldn’t get away with saying ‘undisputed’ because Spinks was still out there, so they repeated “Unified” to ad nauseam; but as soon as Tyson beat Spinks, HBO and the media dropped “Unified” from their verbiage. You have to ask yourself, why the word’s importance/prestige did suddenly disappear.

But for you, when was Mike Tyson heavyweight champ?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Did Wilt sign a new Basketball contract with the Lakers in 71, that scuppered the big fight deal?

Have I at last got to the bottom of why it never happened?

- Dearest davie lad, you and so many others have been instrumental in trolling about how the Wilt/Ali thread got to be so monstrous by baiting Kalan repeatedly.

I only made only a few appearances in the thread to present historical content, one of which Wilt insisted on a purse equivalent to his basketball contract he was holding out for. Ali wasn't big business in the beginning, so boxing never came up with the funds, but basketball did. End of save for the lack of integrity to the truth of the matter that the fight was indeed proposed and drawn up with Wilt having already been in training much like Babe Ruth was against Gunboat Smith before that was canceled when the BSox met his contract demands.

Nuggets like "Can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink, or Cast your pearls before swine" sorta defines the futility of dealing with the average boxreccer, but Perno, this is for you: Ring never stripped Ali, but they recognized the winner of Mathis/Frazier after Ali abdicated his title in support of that bout. You're in a great place to be a silly boy boxing fan, no problems there, but please do study up on your history lest you come across as silly boy there. Was Prince Edward was the real King of Great Britain after abdicating in 1936???

[bwu]

From what I've read, the Ring Magazine listed Ali as heavyweight champion until February 1970, when Ali formally announced his retirement. That cleared the way for the winner of Frazier-Ellis I to become world champion. I don't think they initially recognized Frazier based on the Mathis win.

I understand the thought that the champ is "the man who beat the man who beat the man" but sometimes it can't work out that way. In this instance, the Ring's approach was right. They listed Ali as the champion for years, despite his unavailability to fight. They stopped recognizing him when he said he was finished. The two best men in the division at that time were Frazier and Ellis. Frazier won and became the champ. It seems appropriate.

If we don't consider Frazier the true titlist until he beats Ali, that means Ali's comeback fights against Quarry and Bonavena could be viewed as title defenses. I don't think I've heard anybody make the claim.

[keithmoonhangover]

boxing never came up with the funds

Boxing is a sport, it doesn't promote fights.

the truth of the matter that the fight was indeed proposed and drawn up

Was it? Do you have any proof?

[APerno]

From what I've read, the Ring Magazine listed Ali as heavyweight champion until February 1970, when Ali formally announced his retirement. That cleared the way for the winner of Frazier-Ellis I to become world champion. I don't think they initially recognized Frazier based on the Mathis win.

I understand the thought that the champ is "the man who beat the man who beat the man" but sometimes it can't work out that way. In this instance, the Ring's approach was right. They listed Ali as the champion for years, despite his unavailability to fight. They stopped recognizing him when he said he was finished. The two best men in the division at that time were Frazier and Ellis. Frazier won and became the champ. It seems appropriate.

If we don't consider Frazier the true titlist until he beats Ali, that means Ali's comeback fights against Quarry and Bonavena could be viewed as title defenses. I don't think I've heard anybody make the claim.

I always admit that the lineal argument has many holes in it, and this is another great example of it not working - and yes you are correct Ali did announce his retirement, thus opening the door for a recognized elimination fight (Frazier-Ellis), but most of us felt at the time that he was being forced out, and that he would eventually win-out and be able to fight again.

I also think that if he had beaten Frazier that night all three fights today might well be listed as title defenses - both Quarry and Bonavena were scheduled for 15 rounds, which suggests someone was considering them title fights. (The Bonavena fight is listed on BoxRec as being for NABF title, but that title is usually contested for over 12 rounds; the next 12 times Ali fights an NABF title fight they are all scheduled for 12 rounds, not 15 - the Bonavena fight is odd.)

[bwu]

From what I've read, the Ring Magazine listed Ali as heavyweight champion until February 1970, when Ali formally announced his retirement. That cleared the way for the winner of Frazier-Ellis I to become world champion. I don't think they initially recognized Frazier based on the Mathis win.

I understand the thought that the champ is "the man who beat the man who beat the man" but sometimes it can't work out that way. In this instance, the Ring's approach was right. They listed Ali as the champion for years, despite his unavailability to fight. They stopped recognizing him when he said he was finished. The two best men in the division at that time were Frazier and Ellis. Frazier won and became the champ. It seems appropriate.

If we don't consider Frazier the true titlist until he beats Ali, that means Ali's comeback fights against Quarry and Bonavena could be viewed as title defenses. I don't think I've heard anybody make the claim.

I always admit that the lineal argument has many holes in it, and this is another great example of it not working - and yes you are correct Ali did announce his retirement, thus opening the door for a recognized elimination fight (Frazier-Ellis), but most of us felt at the time that he was being forced out, and that he would eventually win-out and be able to fight again.

I also think that if he had beaten Frazier that night all three fights today might well be listed as title defenses - both Quarry and Bonavena were scheduled for 15 rounds, which suggests someone was considering them title fights. (The Bonavena fight is listed on BoxRec as being for NABF title, but that title is usually contested for over 12 rounds; the next 12 times Ali fights an NABF title fight they are all scheduled for 12 rounds, not 15 - the Bonavena fight is odd.)

Interesting. You're probably right about retroactive title defenses. Had Ali won the first Frazier fight, the contests you name would likely be deemed defenses.

[Kalan]

I'm not sure if you post on the off topic section, so I thought I best post it on here.

I couldn't possibly keep it from you.

Right!!! ... For anybody who thought this was a publicity stunt for both... Ali simply didn't want to face a 7'1" X 290 super athlete who could punch like a ton of bricks ... The poor hammered soul chickenshatted by losing to Frazier -- which the contract stated he had to retain the title for the fight to happen.

The earlier '60's fight Ali simply wouldn't sign the contract....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s ... and this vid is positive proof.

How could Ali have retained the title if Frazier was the champ going into their 1st fight?

He needed to regain not retain.... Wilt wanted to be champ and the stipulation was written into the contract.

[davie]

He needed to regain not retain.... Wilt wanted to be champ and the stipulation was written into the contract.

So Wilt backed out because Muhammad Ali was not the champion? (taking into account that Ali was not the champion when the negotiations happened and any deal might not have been signed?)

You're implying Ali lost Frazier intentionally, so he wouldn't have the title, so he could duck Wilt?

Wilt made stipulations that the fight could only happen if Ali could dethrone the current undisputed heavyweight champion?

And it was Ali doing the ducking?

A basketball player was allowed to make demands of the greatest heavyweight of all time, that he had to deliver the title to him? Are you fuckin g serious?
He had done nothing to earn a shot at Ali let alone the undisputed championship of the world and instead of him earning that position or indeed facing the fearsome Frazier himself. Ali was to go out beat Frazier and deliver it on a silver platter or no deal?

Are you right in the fvcking head? Do you actually take the time to read this drivel before you spill it on to your computer screen?

[Kalan]

Wilt was older at that time... He'd been around and around with Ali by that time... He had spent years chasing Ali and having Ali not sign a painstakingly negotiated contract... The fight would have been the biggest viewed sports event and the History of the World... But Wilt knew Ali wasn't interested.

But Wilt wanted to be the Heavyweight Champion... He wouldn't be if Ali didn't hold the title... so that clause was agreed to by both Ali and Wilt... But even if Ali beat Frazier -- Chamberlain knew Ali would never honor the contract in a million years because Ali didn't want to get killed...

Ali... "That man scares me.. He's the only man in the world I'm afraid of... I think he would kill me."

[Tomasino]

Right!!! ... For anybody who thought this was a publicity stunt for both... Ali simply didn't want to face a 7'1" X 290 super athlete who could punch like a ton of bricks ... The poor hammered soul chickenshatted by losing to Frazier -- which the contract stated he had to retain the title for the fight to happen.

The earlier '60's fight Ali simply wouldn't sign the contract....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s ... and this vid is positive proof.

How could Ali have retained the title if Frazier was the champ going into their 1st fight?

He needed to regain not retain.... Wilt wanted to be champ and the stipulation was written into the contract.

Why didn't he go after the champ, Joe Frazier?

[punchoutsb]

golden oldie, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.
Display this post.

Thankfully I know I didn't miss anything resembling intelligence here

[davie]

golden oldie, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.
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punchoutsb, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.
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Pardon???










Just fvcking with you mate, I don't ignore anyone
How funny would it be if I was on punchoutsb's ignore list

[punchoutsb]

golden oldie, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.
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punchoutsb, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.
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Pardon???

Just fvcking with you mate, I don't ignore anyone
How funny would it be if I was on punchoutsb's ignore list

You're not a shite poster so you wouldn't be on my ignore list. There are two active posters on there and three others that are banned (not surprisingly), all are terrible, immature and add nothing to the value of the forum or my experience here. I never used the feature in the past, but it really does up the quality if you even block the most idiotic trollsters.

[Klee Gluckman]

Tyson was champ the night he beat Berbick.

The reason is that he proved he was the best. Spinks avoided the Tyson fight as long as he could. Butch Lewis never believed Spinks would beat Tyson.

Tyson proved that he was the champion and not the defender. The Champ is the best fighter out there between Berbick and Douglas it was Tyson.

I don't do the same for Lennox Lewis because I remain unconvinced he would have beaten Holyfield pre 1998.

I believe all of Frazier's defences are legitimised by his win over Ali.

[Kalan]

Wilt just backed out. No title no fight. He breathed a sigh of relief....as did his dad.

Wilt signed the contract... Ali refused to sign.. He know he'd get killed if he did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

[BoxBuzz]

Wilt just backed out. No title no fight. He breathed a sigh of relief....as did his dad.

Wilt signed the contract... Ali refused to sign.. He know he'd get killed if he did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Nobody serves up the jabberwocky, gibberish and gobbledeegook the way you do!

Calculate this....

(1 Basketball Player) +(1 HW Champion of the world) X (Squared Circle) X (12 (or15) 3 minute rounds) & ( Marquess of Queensberry Rules) = TIMBERRRR!!!!!

Buckle down, work the math. Figure it out.

I'll expect your amended report by Monday.

[Kalan]

Wilt just backed out. No title no fight. He breathed a sigh of relief....as did his dad.

Wilt signed the contract... Ali refused to sign.. He know he'd get killed if he did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Nobody serves up the jabberwocky, gibberish and gobbledeegook the way you do!

Calculate this....

(1 Basketball Player) +(1 HW Champion of the world) X (Squared Circle) X (12 (or15) 3 minute rounds) & ( Marquess of Queensberry Rules) = TIMBERRRR!!!!!

Buckle down, work the math. Figure it out.

I'll expect your amended report by Monday.

Nobody distorts facts the way you do BuzzBox... What you serve up is fantasy on a bun.. The only guy falling would be Ali -- which would NOT be new to him.. 185-pound guys dropped the super hittable Ali.. About every NBA player in history has been knocked to the floor at one time or anther.. There's not record of it ever happening to Chamberlain although he was blind sided with various blows more than anyone else because it was almost impossible to stop him at his best..

I came across this on the Internet Buzz... "Did you hear the big news yet? Last night, Dwight Howard became just the second player in NBA history to score more than 100 points. He dropped 105 against the Warriors to break the long-standing record that Wilt Chamberlain set back in 1962 against the Knicks. He was unstoppable in the post. He knocked down a shitload of free throws. He even stepped out and hit a couple of contested threes and..." Oh, who are we kidding? That Wilt Chamberlain record is never (ever!) going to get broken.

Wilt wasn't playing when he challenged Ali.. He was a damned good businessman and knew that a Chamberlain-Ali Fight for the Heavyweight Championship would be box office magic.. Ali had very little recourse but to pretend he was going to accept the challenge, otherwise he'd have looked like a coward.. But whenever Wilt asked Ali how long it would take for him to sign the contract he begged Wilt not to rush things.. and when Wilt repeated the same question in exasperation, Ali went silent.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Ali wanted no part of a fight with the greatest athlete in Sports History, or he would have signed for what would have been the most watched fight in the history of the planet, while making an ungodly amount of money.. Not compensation enough for getting knocked dead by Wilt Chamberlain.

[Tuan_Jim]

I posted pages from Chamberlain's autobiography here some time ago. The big man, in his own words, lacked confidence in his ability to win, was frightened of being humiliated & was extremely relieved the fight never came off. He preferred to take on Ali rather than Frazier because he knew if he was out of his depth Ali would take it easy whereas Frazier certainly wouldn't.

People who win boxing matches do not think like this.

[Kalan]

That's total bullcrap put out by the biased Boxing Community... The fact is Ali REFUSED to sign to fight Chamberlain because Wilt was so big, fast, powerful, and so great an athlete -- and his hands and feet were so fast... He had sprinter speed and super quick hands in blocking shots, grabbing rebounds, and dealing assists... Wilt had trainers lined up who volunteered their services... There was a contract negotiated and drawn up by contract lawyers representing both athletes -- and Ali REFUSED to sign it -- not once, but MANY times as seen below.. Wilt just got tired of the whole business of Ali refusing to sign.. Ali did not want to fight a man like Wilt Chamberlain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

If Ali thought he had any chance he would have signed -- because EVERYONE would have watched it.

[Kalan]

And as for Frazier you've got to be kidding... Was the 6'3" X 217 George Foreman a master boxer???? ... Or was he just too big and strong for Frazier???

[punchoutsb]

And as for Frazier you've got to be kidding... Was the 6'3" X 217 George Foreman a master boxer???? ... Or was he just too big and strong for Frazier???

Having never boxed yourself you can't possibly know just how good high level boxers are, despite not looking as polished as other high level boxers. George Foreman WAS a master boxer compared to someone who never boxed. We forgive you.

[Kalan]

You're speaking from extreme ignorance again. I've boxed amateur, pro, and trained 100's of boxers.

[Kalan]

Foreman was also a lot bigger than feather hitting Jimmy Young. Just not as good a boxer at that stage of his career. He gained a little patience later.

[punchoutsb]

You're speaking from extreme ignorance again. I've boxed amateur, pro, and trained 100's of boxers.

I know. You also have a world class bench press, have associates who benched more than current world record, can overhead press more than many Olympic greats, never lost your legs and run winds sprints at an advanced age, live in a multi million dollar home, was the hardest puncher in the world, and you're very very humble. You told us yourself, remember.

[vidal]

'Kin ell, Kalan is Donald Trump!!