BoxRec

Far too early to tell with AJ, too many intangibles remaining at this time whereas we can see the whole Bruno picture as the story played out to completion.

AJ has not fought anyone yet, of that there is not a whole lot of dispute. He got seriously stunned by a punch though from Whyte so the jury is out on the chin. Same stage of careers (ignore the IBF title, it is bogus, BS and different era) and Bruno was also beating shite out of guys with ease and he too got stunned by a shot (Cummings) which made people put a doubt against his chin.

Lot of parallels between them. AJ appears better to some as still unbeaten but all it takes is one punch to erase everything and change all perspectives of the man and when that happens in other cases, we normally look back and could see the signs. POTENTIALLY, the signs are there. Let's wait a little longer and see more of the story

Stupid question. Bruno lost when he fought the top world class, and in some cases, top 10 P4P of all time. AJ has fought Charles Martin.

Now in four years time, AJ may have fought some really good guys. We will find out then how good he is. If he is found out to be something of a pretender, we can safely say he would have been beaten by Frank. If he turns out to be a true class act, then it is a question.

But disrespecting Frank and in the same time lauding a guy who has only beaten the truly terrible Charles Martin (oh, and Dominic Breazeale) is actually ignorant.

thepocketrocket wrote:Stupid question. Bruno lost when he fought the top world class, and in some cases, top 10 P4P of all time. .

in some cases?

how many 'all time top 10 p4p' fighters did Bruno actually fight? you make it sound like they were legion

Counter-puncher wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:Stupid question. Bruno lost when he fought the top world class, and in some cases, top 10 P4P of all time. .

in some cases?

how many 'all time top 10 p4p' fighters did Bruno actually fight? you make it sound like they were legion

Lewis, Tyson...they make up three of his five losses. I am reading here that Frank is some sort of bum gassing against raving shitfestivals.

If Frank had fought Martin and Breazeale, there would be no doubt he would have iced them fast. That is unless you want to equate them with Tim Witherspoon (which you won't) So therefore there is no evidence to say the great AJ could have beaten him, as AJ may turn out to be a hyped up black David Price. he may end up HOF, we don't know

Well we've not seen enough Joshua. Like, after round six, what his stamina will be like. He seems to be developing but clearly we need to see him in different situations. I did like how he responded to the serious wobble to annihilate Whyte in their exciting domestic battle. Liked how he picked the shots vs Martin and Molina. These were two oddly passive opponents but, encouragingly, when they produced something is when AJ put them on the floor.

Bruno always gassed late in world class, making him vulnerable to the late TKO, we know that.

So Bruno really learned to use the jab prior to the Lewis fight and learned to clinch for the McCall contest, so he could cope with his desperate fade long enough to win the title(a very short lived reign). Not like he was some complete fighter. But, he was a big strong dude and I doubt he'd be frightened of Joshua. He only seemed intimidated in the Tyson rematch when Mike went through him.

Frank I reckon would've given him some good rounds and could maybe land some jarring jabs on the face of Joshua. Bruno was able to outjsb a raw Lennox, for a bit... but I see Joshua, the bigger man and the better talent, rallying to stop his man, maybe when it looks like Frank is taking over.

thepocketrocket wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:Stupid question. Bruno lost when he fought the top world class, and in some cases, top 10 P4P of all time. .

in some cases?

how many 'all time top 10 p4p' fighters did Bruno actually fight? you make it sound like they were legion

Lewis, Tyson...they make up three of his five losses.

top 10 p4p of all time?

its best if you don't bend the hyperbole-stick too far back in the other direction, old boy

Counter-puncher wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:
in some cases?

how many 'all time top 10 p4p' fighters did Bruno actually fight? you make it sound like they were legion

Lewis, Tyson...they make up three of his five losses.

top 10 p4p of all time?

its best if you don't bend the hyperbole-stick too far back in the other direction, old boy

I meant heavyweight, was rushing....just re-read what i put.

Buy yes, the rest makes sense

I would say BOTH Tyson and Lewis being in the Top 10 Heavyweights of all time is a bit of a push, probably a better arguement for Neither making it as opposed to both being in it.

Yes, we can state about Bruno's brave loses as a sign of credible - but what about his wins.... hardly a whose who of boxing and Cotzee aside who did he demolish that was of European class - and I mean demolish, inside 5 rounds victory.

One of the biggest question marks on Joshua is his ability to take punches.... we just don't know if his chin is like Herbie Hide's. However, I do think Bruno's power is overated a bit like Vitali Klitchsko - great wearing down KO percentage, but not a chilling KO rate. As I said before, Carl Williams was considered quite chinny at the time of the Bruno fight, it still took Bruno a number of rounds to get him out of there. Joe Bugner was over weight and over the hill and Bruno dominated, but it still took him a number of rounds. Lennox Lewis, lets be honest not exactly Rocky Marciano in the chin department.... Bruno hit him with some of his best shots of his career - Lewis withstood them and went on to stop Bruno - Lewis was as green as Joshua was back then.

Joshua showed against Whyte that he can fight at a pretty good pace for 8 rounds (or however long it lasted) and that his power is still there in the mid rounds... both feats Bruno never showcased. I envisage a carbon copy of the Lewis fight... Bruno leading, doing very well with the jab - hurting and getting Joshua's respect, but unfortunately not KO'ing him.... and Joshua eventually tagging a fading Bruno in the mid / late rounds with Bruno stopped on the ropes, hands down with the ref consoling him.

Autobarn wrote:Well we've not seen enough Joshua. Like, after round six, what his stamina will be like. He seems to be developing but clearly we need to see him in different situations. I did like how he responded to the serious wobble to annihilate Whyte in their exciting domestic battle. Liked how he picked the shots vs Martin and Molina. These were two oddly passive opponents but, encouragingly, when they produced something is when AJ put them on the floor.

Bruno always gassed late in world class, making him vulnerable to the late TKO, we know that.

So Bruno really learned to use the jab prior to the Lewis fight and learned to clinch for the McCall contest, so he could cope with his desperate fade long enough to win the title(a very short lived reign). Not like he was some complete fighter. But, he was a big strong dude and I doubt he'd be frightened of Joshua. He only seemed intimidated in the Tyson rematch when Mike went through him.

Frank I reckon would've given him some good rounds and could maybe land some jarring jabs on the face of Joshua. Bruno was able to outjsb a raw Lennox, for a bit... but I see Joshua, the bigger man and the better talent, rallying to stop his man, maybe when it looks like Frank is taking over.

Yes and the point you allude to is a good one - just when was the "prime" Bruno.... When he had youth and relative speed (e.g. Tyson 1) but not the defensive nouse to survive and (if we are being brutal) generated so much nervous energy that night that his snap was gone after 12 minutes. Or was it when he fought Lewis, a green but very talented fighter who at this stage didn't have much of a boxing brain - Bruno was undoubtedly slower vs Lewis than he was vs Tyson.

Or is it vs McCall - Physically even slower, seemed to have even less of an engine but knew how to survive. Lets not forget, McCall's effort that night was pretty shocking and months later he had a nervous breakdown in the ring... probably the warning signs were there that night.

Joshua wins, Bruno's best displays were honourable defeats.

People overrate Bruno, partly because of nostalgia and partly because I believe people want to treat him kindly because of his troubles.

Bruno got brutalised against every good fighter he faced - yes he beat McCall, but whilst Oliver has an incredible chin and did beat Lewis, he also lost against a number of very average fighters and looked like he was having a meltdown when he was entering the ring. He was notoriously erratic and inconsistent. But he almost stopped Bruno late on.

Bruno's opponents / wins make Joshua's look like a murderer's row.

That's not to say Bruno couldn't win - he has a big punch and it depends a lot on Joshua's chin. I don't believe it's fair at this time in Joshua's career to guess.

Joshua for me, he hits harder than Bruno, he is way quicker, can put a combination together much better then Bruno ever could, and is much more athletic and fluid. Bearing in mind Frank was such a big target, and his defensive work was pretty dire in my opinion. His inside work was messy as hell too.

Bruno had a good good jab, but he wouldn't hold Joshua off with that for 12 rounds, he would have needed much more than that - I think Joshua would win early.

Bruno, AJ hasnt fought anyone better than Jumbo Cummings yet.

boxingknockout wrote:People overrate Bruno, partly because of nostalgia and partly because I believe people want to treat him kindly because of his troubles.

Bruno got brutalised against every good fighter he faced - yes he beat McCall, but whilst Oliver has an incredible chin and did beat Lewis, he also lost against a number of very average fighters and looked like he was having a meltdown when he was entering the ring. He was notoriously erratic and inconsistent. But he almost stopped Bruno late on.

Bruno's opponents / wins make Joshua's look like a murderer's row.

That's not to say Bruno couldn't win - he has a big punch and it depends a lot on Joshua's chin. I don't believe it's fair at this time in Joshua's career to guess.

In what world do McCall and Coetzee (who in the previous two years had drawn against Pinklon Thomas, and beaten Dokes and Tillis) make Charles Martin, Whyte and Breazeale look like murderers row? I understand the modern generation loving the personality cult of AJ, but I can't get my head round what you have just said.

thepocketrocket wrote:

boxingknockout wrote:People overrate Bruno, partly because of nostalgia and partly because I believe people want to treat him kindly because of his troubles.

Bruno got brutalised against every good fighter he faced - yes he beat McCall, but whilst Oliver has an incredible chin and did beat Lewis, he also lost against a number of very average fighters and looked like he was having a meltdown when he was entering the ring. He was notoriously erratic and inconsistent. But he almost stopped Bruno late on.

Bruno's opponents / wins make Joshua's look like a murderer's row.

That's not to say Bruno couldn't win - he has a big punch and it depends a lot on Joshua's chin. I don't believe it's fair at this time in Joshua's career to guess.

In what world do McCall and Coetzee (who in the previous two years had drawn against Pinklon Thomas, and beaten Dokes and Tillis) make Charles Martin, Whyte and Breazeale look like murderers row? I understand the modern generation loving the personality cult of AJ, but I can't get my head round what you have just said.

Er apart from McCall Bruno has never beaten anyone of any pedigree (Coetzee came over for the holiday.)

Anyway the main point is - Joshua's career has only just started, so it's not reasonable to compare his record against a completed career.

Bruno is big, strong and can punch butcus essentially rubbish

stujones wrote:I would say BOTH Tyson and Lewis being in the Top 10 Heavyweights of all time is a bit of a push, probably a better arguement for Neither making it as opposed to both being in it.

Yes, we can state about Bruno's brave loses as a sign of credible - but what about his wins.... hardly a whose who of boxing and Cotzee aside who did he demolish that was of European class - and I mean demolish, inside 5 rounds victory.

One of the biggest question marks on Joshua is his ability to take punches.... we just don't know if his chin is like Herbie Hide's. However, I do think Bruno's power is overated a bit like Vitali Klitchsko - great wearing down KO percentage, but not a chilling KO rate. As I said before, Carl Williams was considered quite chinny at the time of the Bruno fight, it still took Bruno a number of rounds to get him out of there. Joe Bugner was over weight and over the hill and Bruno dominated, but it still took him a number of rounds. Lennox Lewis, lets be honest not exactly Rocky Marciano in the chin department.... Bruno hit him with some of his best shots of his career - Lewis withstood them and went on to stop Bruno - Lewis was as green as Joshua was back then.

Joshua showed against Whyte that he can fight at a pretty good pace for 8 rounds (or however long it lasted) and that his power is still there in the mid rounds... both feats Bruno never showcased. I envisage a carbon copy of the Lewis fight... Bruno leading, doing very well with the jab - hurting and getting Joshua's respect, but unfortunately not KO'ing him.... and Joshua eventually tagging a fading Bruno in the mid / late rounds with Bruno stopped on the ropes, hands down with the ref consoling him.

Yes, definitely Frank had a physical prime, probably when he gave Tyson that brief wobble in 1989 early on. And a tactical prime where he learned how to relax and pace and clinch more.

You raise a good point, Frank's best wins. McCall, who gave one of the worst performances ever in a heavyweight title defense. Albeit the McCall who landed that one big shot on Lewis. And then what? Jesse Fergusen, or the famous mismatch that was Bruno v Bugner? Bruno was brave in defeat but short on major victories. I felt Eddie Futch was cruelly stereotyping British boxing when he said they build records not fighters, but you can accuse Bruno's handlers of doing this.

boxingknockout wrote:People overrate Bruno, partly because of nostalgia and partly because I believe people want to treat him kindly because of his troubles.

Bruno got brutalised against every good fighter he faced - yes he beat McCall, but whilst Oliver has an incredible chin and did beat Lewis, he also lost against a number of very average fighters and looked like he was having a meltdown when he was entering the ring. He was notoriously erratic and inconsistent. But he almost stopped Bruno late on.

Bruno's opponents / wins make Joshua's look like a murderer's row.

That's not to say Bruno couldn't win - he has a big punch and it depends a lot on Joshua's chin. I don't believe it's fair at this time in Joshua's career to guess.

Bruno beating McCall was one of the ugliest and least impressive ever victories of a British fighter in a world title fight, until Gavin Rees v Souleymane M'baye.

Autobarn wrote:

boxingknockout wrote:People overrate Bruno, partly because of nostalgia and partly because I believe people want to treat him kindly because of his troubles.

Bruno got brutalised against every good fighter he faced - yes he beat McCall, but whilst Oliver has an incredible chin and did beat Lewis, he also lost against a number of very average fighters and looked like he was having a meltdown when he was entering the ring. He was notoriously erratic and inconsistent. But he almost stopped Bruno late on.

Bruno's opponents / wins make Joshua's look like a murderer's row.

That's not to say Bruno couldn't win - he has a big punch and it depends a lot on Joshua's chin. I don't believe it's fair at this time in Joshua's career to guess.

Bruno beating McCall was one of the ugliest and least impressive ever victories of a British fighter in a world title fight, until Gavin Rees v Souleymane M'baye.

Maybe it could have been more impressive he fought Charles 'Murderer's Row' Martin

I do not know how anyone can say AJ would win with any conviction when his career has been so short and he has fought literally no one of note and not actually been tested. There is no possible way of knowing what he is really about at this moment in time. You can say that "potentially he can be x y z" but no more, not yet and anyone saying otherwise is showing their own ability to not be able to read a situation or present facts as they do not yet exist.

I would say that if the career continues as it is, when he steps up, and if he proves to have a gas tank, has the ability to take a shot and fight back when the going gets a little rough, that yes he could beat Bruno. But on current evidence, if a betting man, I will go with the proven man (proven shortfalls but also proven strengths)

tobyh5 wrote:I do not know how anyone can say AJ would win with any conviction when his career has been so short and he has fought literally no one of note and not actually been tested. There is no possible way of knowing what he is really about at this moment in time. You can say that "potentially he can be x y z" but no more, not yet and anyone saying otherwise is showing their own ability to not be able to read a situation or present facts as they do not yet exist.

I would say that if the career continues as it is, when he steps up, and if he proves to have a gas tank, has the ability to take a shot and fight back when the going gets a little rough, that yes he could beat Bruno. But on current evidence, if a betting man, I will go with the proven man (proven shortfalls but also proven strengths)

I imagine people will still say the same thing about Joshua regardless how his career goes. If Wlad flattens him, he regroups and gets a few wins against Chisora-type fighters, before going in with Wilder and getting flattened again, then he's never going to make it. Conversely, if he stops Wlad in a couple of rounds and by the end of the year has thrashed Wilder before thrashing Fury, there will be excuses for all of them, (namely old, never fought anyone, and had two years off due to drugs/illness.)

If he never goes beyond seven or eight rounds people will still question his ability to go twelve. And that shot he took from Whyte will be mentioned forever.

tobyh5 wrote:I do not know how anyone can say AJ would win with any conviction when his career has been so short and he has fought literally no one of note and not actually been tested. There is no possible way of knowing what he is really about at this moment in time. You can say that "potentially he can be x y z" but no more, not yet and anyone saying otherwise is showing their own ability to not be able to read a situation or present facts as they do not yet exist.

I would say that if the career continues as it is, when he steps up, and if he proves to have a gas tank, has the ability to take a shot and fight back when the going gets a little rough, that yes he could beat Bruno. But on current evidence, if a betting man, I will go with the proven man (proven shortfalls but also proven strengths)

I'm not saying AJ will win with any conviction - OF COURSE he hasn't been tested yet.
I'm saying AJ would win because he's a bit bigger, a bit looser, faster, more of a natural athlete and PROBABLY pass the various tests coming his way.

Frank proved himself as WC gatekeeper, AJ is likely to prove himself better than that.

thepocketrocket wrote:

Autobarn wrote:

boxingknockout wrote:People overrate Bruno, partly because of nostalgia and partly because I believe people want to treat him kindly because of his troubles.

Bruno got brutalised against every good fighter he faced - yes he beat McCall, but whilst Oliver has an incredible chin and did beat Lewis, he also lost against a number of very average fighters and looked like he was having a meltdown when he was entering the ring. He was notoriously erratic and inconsistent. But he almost stopped Bruno late on.

Bruno's opponents / wins make Joshua's look like a murderer's row.

That's not to say Bruno couldn't win - he has a big punch and it depends a lot on Joshua's chin. I don't believe it's fair at this time in Joshua's career to guess.

Bruno beating McCall was one of the ugliest and least impressive ever victories of a British fighter in a world title fight, until Gavin Rees v Souleymane M'baye.

Maybe it could have been more impressive he fought Charles 'Murderer's Row' Martin

you mean Charles "Like a God" Martin?

Autobarn wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:

Autobarn wrote: Bruno beating McCall was one of the ugliest and least impressive ever victories of a British fighter in a world title fight, until Gavin Rees v Souleymane M'baye.

Maybe it could have been more impressive he fought Charles 'Murderer's Row' Martin

you mean Charles "Like a God" Martin?

LOL....yeah, he is goooood.

Seriously, though as I said, AJ may well be proven to be excellent in the future, with really good win. However, calling Charles Martin and Breazeale a murderer's row in comparison to the like of Tillis, McCall and Coetzee (easy to write that win off as it fits a narrative, but he was in form) just strikes me as maybe the most nuthugging post in 15 years on the forums. The only way Martin and Brezeale ever become murderer's row, is if the AJ defeat sends them off the rails, and they become actual murderers Rubin Carter style.

I actually wish AJ luck, but this isn't a question worth asking for a good few years.

It's difficult when there are so many unanswered questions about joshua.

However, better the devil you know. Bruno to wear him down slowly with the jab.

Big frank all day, pretty similar with power, Bruno has more hart, better jab, better chin, and arguably better stamina!

Autobarn wrote:

thepocketrocket wrote:

Autobarn wrote: Bruno beating McCall was one of the ugliest and least impressive ever victories of a British fighter in a world title fight, until Gavin Rees v Souleymane M'baye.

Maybe it could have been more impressive he fought Charles 'Murderer's Row' Martin

you mean Charles "Like a God" Martin?