Did Zora Folley take a fall?

[Kalan]

As you know, both Foley and Bonavena went down at the hands of what you have called the feather fisted Ali.
Along with some other pretty delicate flowers along the way. Listonx2,Frazier,Pattersonx2,Cooperx2,Banks,Lewis,Besmanoff,Foreman,Foster,
That's some pretty impressive feather dusting.
Some folks are pretty hard to impress.

Ya see.. Liston suffered a torn left biceps.. In the rematch he got up before the referee even started counting.. The count should have been suspended according to the rules until Ali went to a neutral corner.. Frazier was a walking basketcase when Ali stopped him.. Patterson suffered a back injury.. Patterson was old, chinny, and done in the rematch.. Cooper was knocked out many times and was one of the chinniest bleeders ever.. Banks was a chinny 3rd rater who floored Ali.. Blue Lewis was very chinny and lasted longer than expected.. Besmanoff you got to be kidding about---seriously.. Foreman claims he was drugged and I believe him.. Mac Foster went the distance.. Bob Foster weighed a chinny 180 verses Ali

Guys Ali couldn't stop who other guys easily stopped, or shlttcannned??? Rudi Lubbers... Alfredo Evangelista... Ken Norton X 3... Buster Mathis... Mac Foster... Earnie Shavers... Leon Stinks... Joe Bugner X 2... Even Chuvalo was battered to a quick stoppage by Frazier and Foreman.. Ali couldn't make a dent.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan I'm going to put you down as a "maybe" on Ali.

[Kalan]

As in maybe he was a big bomber? ... You need reading glasses -- or a brain transplant.

[elmersalsa]

The Greatest wasn't a devastating puncher. But, the accumulation of punches at fast rate of a heavyweight takes a toll. No matter what type of chin you got, if you get hit repeatedly in a fight, especially if it's a heavyweight, you will find the canvas. Ali was a good finisher if he got you in trouble. He wasn't a devastating puncher but wasn't a feather fisted puncher either. He could punch.

[Kalan]

Well, Young almost exhausted Foreman and put him out. He was the weakest hitter of the top heavies of that period, so there's some truth to the notion that if you take enough bips they'll wear you down and stop you, like drips of water wearing away a rock.

However if you ask Rudi Lubbers, Alfredo Evangelista, Ken Norton, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Leon Spinks, and Joe Bugner about Ali's power, they'll tell you they were never down and never hurt except for Shavers. Shavers was knocked out 7 times and even Jimmy Young got him going. Ali hurt him but couldn't finish him off. It's not just the number of times you hit someone -- it's how accurate, well leveraged, and well timed the shots are. An experienced professional boxer who's any good, isn't about to let you knock him out. Foreman and Lyle were both going for the KO, taking big chances. Leaving themselves wide open. That's not fear that's greed. That's very unusual, but you know how a fight like that's going to end.

[BoxBuzz]

Well, Young almost exhausted Foreman and put him out. He was the weakest hitter of the top heavies of that period, so there's some truth to the notion that if you take enough bips they'll wear you down and stop you, like drips of water wearing away a rock.

However if you ask Rudi Lubbers, Alfredo Evangelista, Ken Norton, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Leon Spinks, and Joe Bugner about Ali's power, they'll tell you they were never down and never hurt except for Shavers. Shavers was knocked out 7 times and even Jimmy Young got him going. Ali hurt him but couldn't finish him off. It's not just the number of times you hit someone -- it's how accurate, well leveraged, and well timed the shots are. An experienced professional boxer who's any good, isn't about to let you knock him out. Foreman and Lyle were both going for the KO, taking big chances. Leaving themselves wide open. That's not fear that's greed. That's very unusual, but you know how a fight like that's going to end.

Did you ever read that Kenny Norton described hitting Ali like hitting a slab of Iron?

Another thing that can sap your strength is giving it your best, and having the sense (whether factual or not) that it's doing little good. That element is another thing tha can take it's toll on a fighter.

[evrenb]

Well, Young almost exhausted Foreman and put him out. He was the weakest hitter of the top heavies of that period, so there's some truth to the notion that if you take enough bips they'll wear you down and stop you, like drips of water wearing away a rock.

However if you ask Rudi Lubbers, Alfredo Evangelista, Ken Norton, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Leon Spinks, and Joe Bugner about Ali's power, they'll tell you they were never down and never hurt except for Shavers. Shavers was knocked out 7 times and even Jimmy Young got him going. Ali hurt him but couldn't finish him off. It's not just the number of times you hit someone -- it's how accurate, well leveraged, and well timed the shots are. An experienced professional boxer who's any good, isn't about to let you knock him out. Foreman and Lyle were both going for the KO, taking big chances. Leaving themselves wide open. That's not fear that's greed. That's very unusual, but you know how a fight like that's going to end.

Kalan you are quite clearly the banned Ill Duce...

[Kalan]

NOPE... I've only posted on this site as Kalan... You're clearly a nutcase.

[Kalan]

Well, Young almost exhausted Foreman and put him out. He was the weakest hitter of the top heavies of that period, so there's some truth to the notion that if you take enough bips they'll wear you down and stop you, like drips of water wearing away a rock.

However if you ask Rudi Lubbers, Alfredo Evangelista, Ken Norton, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Leon Spinks, and Joe Bugner about Ali's power, they'll tell you they were never down and never hurt except for Shavers. Shavers was knocked out 7 times and even Jimmy Young got him going. Ali hurt him but couldn't finish him off. It's not just the number of times you hit someone -- it's how accurate, well leveraged, and well timed the shots are. An experienced professional boxer who's any good, isn't about to let you knock him out. Foreman and Lyle were both going for the KO, taking big chances. Leaving themselves wide open. That's not fear that's greed. That's very unusual, but you know how a fight like that's going to end.

Did you ever read that Kenny Norton described hitting Ali like hitting a slab of Iron?

Another thing that can sap your strength is giving it your best, and having the sense (whether factual or not) that it's doing little good. That element is another thing tha can take it's toll on a fighter.

Let me tell you a secret.. Fighters say a lot of weird things they believe have sound bite value.. It doesn't mean they're sincere comments... Norton moved Ali all around with his shots, broke his jaw, and beat him up... Now, he couldn't move Foreman an inch. Neither could Frazier... You're generally more complementary about guys you beat up, than guys who punch you around the ring... run you over like a mack truck... and crush you like a bug.

[BoxBuzz]

Well, Young almost exhausted Foreman and put him out. He was the weakest hitter of the top heavies of that period, so there's some truth to the notion that if you take enough bips they'll wear you down and stop you, like drips of water wearing away a rock.

However if you ask Rudi Lubbers, Alfredo Evangelista, Ken Norton, Buster Mathis, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Leon Spinks, and Joe Bugner about Ali's power, they'll tell you they were never down and never hurt except for Shavers. Shavers was knocked out 7 times and even Jimmy Young got him going. Ali hurt him but couldn't finish him off. It's not just the number of times you hit someone -- it's how accurate, well leveraged, and well timed the shots are. An experienced professional boxer who's any good, isn't about to let you knock him out. Foreman and Lyle were both going for the KO, taking big chances. Leaving themselves wide open. That's not fear that's greed. That's very unusual, but you know how a fight like that's going to end.

Did you ever read that Kenny Norton described hitting Ali like hitting a slab of Iron?

Another thing that can sap your strength is giving it your best, and having the sense (whether factual or not) that it's doing little good. That element is another thing tha can take it's toll on a fighter.

Let me tell you a secret.. Fighters say a lot of weird things they believe have sound bite value.. It doesn't mean they're sincere comments... Norton moved Ali all around with his shots, broke his jaw, and beat him up... Now, he couldn't move Foreman an inch. Neither could Frazier... You're generally more complementary about guys you beat up, than guys who punch you around the ring... run you over like a mack truck... and crush you like a bug.

Thanks for the inside info. Sounds like the inside story on Orange Juice that we once received from another mentor of this forum.

Anyhow, often times you sound a bit like a numbscull. Now I'm not saying you ARE a numbscull, but if a numbscull ever showed up here and started bantering, I think he'd say a lot of things similar to how you say them.

You are probably asking yourself "What could Buzz possibly mean by that?" I'm no numbscull! Why, I'm bright! and articulate!, and have my wits about me at all times! Surely he is mistaken!

Well, I'll be specific and tell you what I mean, In the case of Norton and Ali, they fought 3 fights to an inconclusive 3 fight ending. And whether you happen to think Norton won them all, or even 2 out of 3 or vice versa....neither punched the other around the ring, ran them over like a mack truck, and crushed them like a bug. No matter how big you imagine your brain to be, your heart is ruling your typing fingers. A lot like a post christmas Grinch might act.

And this is what I mean by my numbscull example. Nothing more nothing less.

What say you to that?

[Kalan]

I say I'm not surprised at your bewilderment -- or the fact you can't read or grasp anything with the least bit of depth to it... It was Foreman who ran over Norton and swatted him like a bug -- and that's why you never heard a lot of complimentary things from Norton about Foreman -- whereas Norton punched Ali around the ring, broke his jaw, and pretty much beat him all 3 fights...

Even if you're a big Ali fan and don't agree with that -- you have to admit their 1st fight was 1-sided, Norton had his way with Ali, and beat him up. This is why I said, "You're generally more complementary about guys you beat up, than guys who punch you around the ring... run you over like a mack truck... and crush you like a bug." ... Maybe something will begin to dawn on you if you go over this post about 20 times.

[klompton]

Dude get fornicating real. One sided?? Their first fight was a split decision that was a one round swing. All of yheir fights were very close. Dont bring thst bullshit on here claiming Norton won all three Ali fights and dominated him. He didnt.

[elmersalsa]

Dude get effing real. One sided?? Their first fight was a split decision that was a one round swing. All of yheir fights were very close. Dont bring thst bullshit on here claiming Norton won all three Ali fights and dominated him. He didnt.

I think Kalan is right in stating that Ken Norton winning all the 3 fights with The Greatest, klompton.

[klompton]

Is your opinion supposed to mean something to me? What you think is irrelevant. The fact is that all three fights were close, including the first. Pretending Ali got dominated in that one is stupid. You can believe Ali lost all three but the fact remains that he didnt and plenty of people, including the 9 people who matter most: those keeping score, dont agree with you.

[BoxBuzz]

Dude get effing real. One sided?? Their first fight was a split decision that was a one round swing. All of yheir fights were very close. Dont bring thst bullshit on here claiming Norton won all three Ali fights and dominated him. He didnt.

I think Kalan is right in stating that Ken Norton winning all the 3 fights with The Greatest, klompton.

Elmer, Your opinion on that is well known, and not that controversial....when fights are close, opinions can vary. As you know there are those who believe just the opposite.

I don't think either fighter managed a hat trick against the other. I think most fall in the middle somewhere.

What is concerning, is that you seem to have missed what he actually is implying.

[Kalan]

Is your opinion supposed to mean something to me? What you think is irrelevant. The fact is that all three fights were close, including the first. Pretending Ali got dominated in that one is stupid. You can believe Ali lost all three but the fact remains that he didnt and plenty of people, including the 9 people who matter most: those keeping score, dont agree with you.

Ali DID get dominated in the 1st fight... the SD was the biggest joke of all time... Don't tell me you thought Lewis fought a draw with Holyfield or that Antuefermo fought a draw with Hagler.. Or Bradley beat Pacquiao.. Judges often arrive at terrible scores.. Ali didn't do crap to Norton and he got beaten up.. Norton was the aggressor and punisher in the rematch and rubber match as well. Those fights were much closer but Norton definitely outscored Ali in both with better sharper punches, and he moved Ali around -- and didn't get moved around.

Holmes beat Norton by a significantly higher score than the cards... He started strong and got well ahead.. Foreman wasted Norton like he didn't exist

[elmersalsa]

Is your opinion supposed to mean something to me? What you think is irrelevant. The fact is that all three fights were close, including the first. Pretending Ali got dominated in that one is stupid. You can believe Ali lost all three but the fact remains that he didnt and plenty of people, including the 9 people who matter most: those keeping score, dont agree with you.

Ali DID get dominated in the 1st fight... the SD was the biggest joke of all time... Don't tell me you thought Lewis fought a draw with Holyfield or that Antuefermo fought a draw with Hagler.. Or Bradley beat Pacquiao.. Judges often arrive at terrible scores.. Ali didn't do crap to Norton and he got beaten up.. Norton was the aggressor and punisher in the rematch and rubber match as well. Those fights were much closer but Norton definitely outscored Ali in both with better sharper punches, and he moved Ali around -- and didn't get moved around.

Holmes beat Norton by a significantly higher score than the cards... He started strong and got well ahead.. Foreman wasted Norton like he didn't exist

But, then again, Kalan, Holmes vs Norton was a very close fight. It could have gone either way. That fight was brutal!

[SteveO]

Ken Norton = The only heavyweight champion who never won a world title fight!

[BoxBuzz]

Judges were up close and saw things that they swear to, to this day.

Do the words subjectivity and objectivity have meaning here? Of course they do....and depending on what you value, you "rule thusly".

You're trying to argue which is a more effective color.... blue or green. You end up with nothing more than your opinion.

The judges obviously didn't like Jimmy Young sticking his head out of the ring....probably penalized him too much and it cost him the fight.
Judges are actually a part of the sport....part of the "rules of the sport" in fact. .....and the camps are often cognizant of this and have some say in who gets the nod.
And then the "cookie crumbles". And there's no crying in baseball, or in boxing....well except for Oliver McCall.

When judges goof up it's nothing more than a parlor game for a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks. Turn the page.

Hey...here's a reverse example.....I think Frazier won the FOTC.....but at the end of the fight, I would have rather been Ali, who I think weathered the fight better.
Maybe we should go back a take a look at fights where the winner won the fight, but the loser actually inflicted more damage on the winner. Liston got KO'd in a fight that ended his opponents career. Can't remember if it was Marshall or Martin.....senior moment. Maybe we should go back and correct the record book? I mean I suppose "win" really has to be defined. Just llike Clinton and the word "is".

[Kalan]

Judges were up close and saw things that they swear to, to this day.

Do the words subjectivity and objectivity have meaning here? Of course they do....and depending on what you value, you "rule thusly".

You're trying to argue which is a more effective color.... blue or green. You end up with nothing more than your opinion.

The judges obviously didn't like Jimmy Young sticking his head out of the ring....probably penalized him too much and it cost him the fight.
Judges are actually a part of the sport....part of the "rules of the sport" in fact. .....and the camps are often cognizant of this and have some say in who gets the nod.
And then the "cookie crumbles". And there's no crying in baseball, or in boxing....well except for Oliver McCall.

When judges goof up it's nothing more than a parlor game for a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks. Turn the page.

Hey...here's a reverse example.....I think Frazier won the FOTC.....but at the end of the fight, I would have rather been Ali, who I think weathered the fight better.
Maybe we should go back a take a look at fights where the winner won the fight, but the loser actually inflicted more damage on the winner. Liston got KO'd in a fight that ended his opponents career. Can't remember if it was Marshall or Martin.....senior moment. Maybe we should go back and correct the record book? I mean I suppose "win" really has to be defined. Just llike Clinton and the word "is".

Let’s say a man is super tough and can absorb tremendous punishment with ease. But his opponent nonetheless is more skilled and lands cleaner and harder shots on him. Even though the opponent doesn’t “weather” the action as well because he’s not as rugged and durable - should he be penalized for having a more fragile chin if he doesn’t go down or stagger around? I think not.

There's 4 things that lead to incorrect scores... 1. Judges who are incompetent... 2. Judges who are corrupt... 3. Judges who are biased... 4. Referees who have any of those characteristics.

When you’re a big name, backed by big name promoters, and your people have close ties to boxing commissioners who select the judges and referees – things tend to happen in your favor. What happened with the judge who voted for Ali in the 1st fight—when Norton knocked Hell out of him? He just wanted Ali to win. A conspiracy would involve 2 or 3 judges. Ali expected to lose and nobody thought he won except that judge.. When the judges go your way, your fans tend to think you won. “It was a unanimous decision.” Well screw unanimous decisions.

The judges are sometimes paid to come up with the scores they get. There’s no other way to explain scores like Lara-Williams -- let’s be real. Williams looked so dejected before the Lara decision was announced, Dan Goosen (who knew what was coming) got into the ring to perk Williams up.. Goosen said in a hollow voice that rang with insincerity, "You're a bad mother Paul." ... As soon as Goosen said that I knew an outrageous robbery was coming.

[marco855]

He didn't take a fall, he took a dive. He didn't fight aggressively like he usually did and went down when someone opened a door and a breeze blew in..........

[klompton]

He didn't take a fall, he took a dive. He didn't fight aggressively like he usually did

??? Zora Folley was never aggressive. That was the biggest knock on him throughout his career. He was a counterpuncher. He fought the exact same way against Mildenberger and was damn lucky to get a draw. And Ali did the same thing to Karl that he did to Zora.

[elmersalsa]

It doesn't matter the outcome. The Greatest was definitely superior.

[Tony1244]

Judges were up close and saw things that they swear to, to this day.

Do the words subjectivity and objectivity have meaning here? Of course they do....and depending on what you value, you "rule thusly".

You're trying to argue which is a more effective color.... blue or green. You end up with nothing more than your opinion.

The judges obviously didn't like Jimmy Young sticking his head out of the ring....probably penalized him too much and it cost him the fight.
Judges are actually a part of the sport....part of the "rules of the sport" in fact. .....and the camps are often cognizant of this and have some say in who gets the nod.
And then the "cookie crumbles". And there's no crying in baseball, or in boxing....well except for Oliver McCall.

When judges goof up it's nothing more than a parlor game for a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks. Turn the page.

Hey...here's a reverse example.....I think Frazier won the FOTC.....but at the end of the fight, I would have rather been Ali, who I think weathered the fight better.
Maybe we should go back a take a look at fights where the winner won the fight, but the loser actually inflicted more damage on the winner. Liston got KO'd in a fight that ended his opponents career. Can't remember if it was Marshall or Martin.....senior moment. Maybe we should go back and correct the record book? I mean I suppose "win" really has to be defined. Just llike Clinton and the word "is".

"....too many victories weaken you. The defeated can rise up stronger than the victor."

From the book: The Greatest, Muhammad Ali with Richard Durham. I don't think Ali or Durham knew in the 1970s just how prophetic that quote would be.

"The loser now will be later to win...." Bob Dylan

There is also a Confucius quote about how the frail outlive the strong. Interesting stuff here. Of course Ali won the Rumble in The Jungle, but the winner paid a heavy price. Body shots also effect the mind, and those body shots did Ali no good. You provided good examples of how the winner ends up being the loser. Its not just sports, sometimes you win the girl but wish you hadn't.

[JoeCorrao]

Just watched Ali vs Folley and the stoppage looked slightly suspicious.

He goes down in the 4th, lands flat on his face and lays unmoving for a few seconds, then starts to spring up, looks to his corner for some reason, the gets up at 9.
For a man seemingly unconscious he got up on solid legs and flew at Ali.
Then in the 7th he goes down, again not to a huge blow, lays unmoving again the springs up and flails about and gets counted out
Unusual behaviour, we've seen enough guys out cold to know how it looks when someones out.

Did anyone else think it was suspicious, he never seemed to get tagged hard either time

Definitely nothing suspicious...I have seen him behave like that before. A strange quirk...but definitely nothing dodgy...

This fight is shown in boxing schools all over the galaxy as an example of a dive.