BoxRec

Kalan wrote:That's not what the post is saying... The post tells you Joshua wouldn't have been the perfect opponent... And Ali would have been. You have to read it.

Got it, your stuck between worshiped idols, and to make a choice would result in a lengthy stay in purgatory.

You don't know how purgatory works... Having an informed opinion (or an uninformed opinion) isn't generally any kind of sin... even a venial sin.

There are exceptions. If you had an opinion that one race was inferior to another one -- or that someone needs killing. That would be a spiritual hate crime

I was of course referring to a hypothetical purgatory that existed where Idol worshiping was the universal unifying principal.

Yes I know... You're off traipsing in moon beams again. You can't separate fact from fantasy. I only deal with facts and cold analysis based on facts.

Kalan wrote:I only deal with facts and cold analysis based on facts.

sorry to interrupt, but that made me ... giggle.

elmersalsa wrote:
How does Joshua does prime versus prime vs these guys:
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis

- Joshua: age 27, 18-0, 18 KO, 44 rds 3-0, 3 KO title record

The Josh prime has only just started, yet he is currently the best he's ever been, so how does that stack up with the best of the above to show some real class is what I interpret Elmo probably means in his meandering, open ended question while trolling the bait for Kalan. And of course the regulars' responses didn't disappoint, usually more emotionally suited for a 13 year old girls' Justin Beiber twitter club than doing any hard analysis, so first things first:

Cross referencing the involved statistical variables yields the following:

George Foreman 18-0, 15 KO 1970, age 21, no contender 3 years before title
Muhammad Ali 18-0, 14 KO 1963, age 22, one contender Doug Jones 1 year before title
Joe Louis 18-0, 14 KO 1935, age 21, no contender 2 years before title
Mike Tyson 18-0, 18 KO 1986, age 19, no contender 9 months before title
Larry Holmes 18-0, 13 KO 1975, age 26, no contender 3 years before title
Rocky Marciano 18-0, 17 KO 1949, age 25, no contender 3 year before title
Joe Frazier 18-0, 16 KO 1967, age 23, no contender 1 year before title
Lennox Lewis 18-0, 16 KO 1991, age 26, no contender 2 years before title

My conclusion: Josh whoops all save the possibilities of still green Tyson, Joe Louis and George Foreman getting to him. Josh also easily whoops all their comp at that stage with not many of Josh's comp being whooped by their comp as they build their records on the timeline. His biggest advantage besides size/strength/boxing ability is being a fully mature age 27 in his athletic prime years with unparalleled success, scarcely losing a round.

These I take to be the protagonists' best fight showing dominance without controversy or officiating help:

Joshua- undefeated Dillon Whyte pretitle
George Foreman-undefeated champ Joe Frazier
Muhammad Ali- 4x defeated 39-4 WBA champ Earnie Terrell
Joe Louis- rematch of 52-7-4 Max Schmeling
Mike Tyson- undefeated champ Tony Tucker
Larry Holmes- twice defeated 20-2 Randy Cobb
Rocky Marciano- 149-19-8 LH champ Archie Moore
Joe Frazier- Undefeated champ Ali
Lennox Lewis- once defeated 37-1 David Tua

My conclusion: Tyson, Lewis, Foreman, and Frazier comprehensively whooped better fighters than Josh and certainly Rocky also by the legendary status of Moore who might well whoop Whyte also even if a bit of a stretch size and age wise. I could go into the 2nd and 3rd best bouts showing dominance, but this project just a short refresher for those unable or unwilling to comprehend timelines and analyze various fairly drawn data comparisons.

Finally, let's look at where the fighters were at age 27 as Josh currently is.

George Foreman age 27 KOed Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, Scott Le Doux, and Dino Denis at the start of his comeback from Ali loss, title record of 3-1, 3 KO.

Muhammad Ali age 27 in boxing exile up before the US Supreme Court for judgement with a title record of 10-0, 8 KO.

Joe Louis age 27 beat Buddy Baer, Billy Conn, Lou Nova, Buddy Baer rematch, Abe Simon, all title fights before being inducted into the Army for 3 yrs. Title record of 22-0, 19 KO.

Mike Tyson age 27 incarcerated on bogus rape charges arranged by DKing. Title record of 10-1, 8 KO.

Larry Holmes age 27 beat Tom Prater, Horace Robinson, and Fred Houpe, all pre title fights.

Rocky Marciano age 27 usually by KO beat Tiger Ted Lowry, Bill Wilson, Keen Simmons, Harold Mitchell, Art Henri, Willis Applegate, Rex Layne, and Freddie Beshore, all pretitle fights.

Joe Frazier age 27 BTFO out of Ali in FOTC. Title record 8-0, 6 KO.

Lennox Lewis age 27 beat Razor Ruddock and then Tony Tucker for his first title(vacated by Big Dummy)

My conclusion: Ali and Tyson were unavailable but more proven, but Rocky and Holmes too poorly tutored to beat Josh if ever. Lewis was at about the same unproven stage as Josh, but Foreman and Louis were more proven and have excellent chances of knocking Josh out with Josh being the underdog. As much as I love Frazier, this a bad matchup for him that I'd pick Josh over. Lewis beating washed up versions of Rudduck and Tucker yields no confidence in him as he always looked ready to faint when entering the ring.

In summary, Josh is up there by many measures or has surpassed many on this list at comparable timelines, most particularly at the comparative 18-0 marks. He still has quite the gauntlet to traverse before being mentioned with the upper echelons of greats as I'm sure most here already knew instinctively in spite of a lack of critical thinking.

No matter the results, these are great champion fight fests that Valhalla will see some day when I become their matchmaker. Just tellin' like it is before the big 'Wlad match that may well shift the axis of the earth. Can't wait.

dupe

That's a lot of hard analysis BroughtonRulesRefuge... Many here just go with their gut instinct.. Which, if you're a betting man, you've learned long ago leads you to more wrong conclusions than is healthy for your bank account.. So before going with your favorite, the guy you're emotionally rooting for, because we're all human of course -- you actually do some thoughtful analysis and deduce outcomes which actually have the greatest likelihood of happening.

Did Foreman have problems with the jab??? With the right cross??? ... Did W Klischko have trouble with attackers??? ... Did Ali have trouble with left hooks??? And with jabs??? ... Did Lewis get hit with big rights??? ... Did Louis catch shots of all kinds especially right counters??? ... Did Frazier fare well with big, tall, strapping, brutally powerful punchers -- and did uppercuts and 45's find his chin like crazy??? ... Was Marciano a teeny little guy who would get crushed by a big, tall, strong, fast, skilled, dynamite puncher who has mastered every punch in the book??? ... and so on.

No thangs up in dis biatch found fo' Did Foreman have problems wit tha jab??, biatch? With tha right cross??, biatch? ... Did W Klischko have shiznit wit attackers??, biatch? ... Did Ali have shiznit wit left hooks??, biatch? And wit jabs??, biatch? ... Did Lewis git hit wit big-ass rights??, biatch? ... Did Louis catch shotz of all kindz especially right counters??, biatch? ... Did Frazier fare well wit big, tall, strapping, brutally bangin punchers -- n' did uppercuts n' 45z find his chin like crazy??, biatch? ... Was Marciano a teeny lil muzafuncka whoz ass would git crushed by a funky-ass big, tall, strong, fast, skilled, dynamite puncher whoz ass has mastered every last muzafunckin punch up in tha book??, biatch? ... n' so on..


u been gizzoogled....so's I can captha the meanin'

elmersalsa wrote:How good is Anthony Joshua? We all know we got a poster in this forum that is crazy and hyped about him.

How does Joshua does prime versus prime vs these guys:
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis

Too early to ask this question

Crease wrote:We don't have enough evidence to know how good AJ is. He has fought a lot of second-rate opposition thus far in his career (Martin, Breazale, Molina).

Only when he fights top, top guys like Klitchsko, Wilder, Fury - well we know how truly good he is. I'd also throw Povetkin, Pulev and Haye in this conversation as well.

When he starts going through them and defeating them convincingly, then we can talk about it.

Even fighting Klitschko won't prove a lot since he's fighting an old Klitschko.

BoxBuzz wrote:No thangs up in dis biatch found fo' Did Foreman have problems wit tha jab??, biatch? With tha right cross??, biatch? ... Did W Klischko have shiznit wit attackers??, biatch? ... Did Ali have shiznit wit left hooks??, biatch? And wit jabs??, biatch? ... Did Lewis git hit wit big-ass rights??, biatch? ... Did Louis catch shotz of all kindz especially right counters??, biatch? ... Did Frazier fare well wit big, tall, strapping, brutally bangin punchers -- n' did uppercuts n' 45z find his chin like crazy??, biatch? ... Was Marciano a teeny lil muzafuncka whoz ass would git crushed by a funky-ass big, tall, strong, fast, skilled, dynamite puncher whoz ass has mastered every last muzafunckin punch up in tha book??, biatch? ... n' so on..


u been gizzoogled....so's I can captha the meanin'

Your imitation of Steve Harvey doing his whiskey soaked uncle needs a lot of work.

gilgamesh wrote:Even fighting Klitschko won't prove a lot since he's fighting an old Klitschko.

Well that's the difficulty in this fight. If AJ does win, his critics will say that Klitschko is "over the hill" and "past his best".

But that being said Klitschko is the most high-profile Heavyweight in the world and his achievements in the division cannot be discredited nor ignored. And I would also say that they didn't happen not so long ago.

All that AJ can do is get the W and claim those titles for his own. Afterward, he'll still have a lot of work to do to prove himself the Number One Heavyweight in the world.
But I do think that's he's intelligent enough to realise that.

I and others have discredited Klitschko's "achievements" many times. Not that hard to do.

Wladimir Klitschko's achievements cannot be discredited by haters Ambler

WK has the most consecutive years with World Title Defenses of any Heavyweight Champion in History. With 23, he has the most successful defenses of the Heavyweight Title of any Champion except Joe Louis.. Klitschko beat Heavyweight Champions and superb boxer-punchers: David Haye and Alexander Povetkin. He's the only man to beat Olympic Gold Medal winner Povetkin or knock him down... He also beat Heavyweight Champions: Hasim Rahman, Sultan Ibragimov, Ruslan Chagaev, Lamon Brewster, Ray Mercer -- and Chris Byrd and Sam Peter twice each. That's 9 Heavyweight Champions. Ray Mercer is also an Olympic Gold Medal winner at Heavyweight, so Anthony Joshua will be Wladimir's 3rd fight versus an Olympic Gold Medal winning Heavyweight Champion -- and possibly his 3rd victory.. Although that is the longest of long shots, weirder things have happened in Boxing. A fist only has to hit a chin real good and an unbelievable upset happens.. A blind shot can connect perfectly.

Heavyweight Champs Ali beat: Leon Spinks, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Ernie Terrell, Jimmy Ellis, Floyd Patterson. Fewer than Wlad

Kalan wrote:With 23, he has the most successful defenses of the Heavyweight Title

Bernard Hopkins has a large number of middleweight defences, how do you rate them?

I don't think you can judge a fighters greatness until their careers are over. I honestly don't think Joshua would win against most of these greats on a fair playing field. It's just too early to be comparing I think. ..he has been matched well and looks great up until now. But those guys fought in a different era where titles meant a hell of a lot more. It was far harder to get a championship. Boxing is watered down greatly from the past until now ; proliferated titles, mismatches galore, cherry picking opponents, staggering amount of drug cheating...some caught, many are not. The drugs(peds) are a massive strain on the integrity of the sport ...and blights comparison to past fighters on occasion.
He may turn out to be a great and I hope he does as he seems a nice chap.

evrenb wrote:those guys fought in a different era where titles meant a hell of a lot more. It was far harder to get a championship. Boxing is watered down greatly from the past until now ; proliferated titles, mismatches galore, cherry picking opponents, staggering amount of drug cheating...some caught, many are not. The drugs(peds) are a massive strain on the integrity of the sport ...and blights comparison to past fighters on occasion.
He may turn out to be a great and I hope he does as he seems a nice chap.

There's 5 X as much competition today as there was back in the day.. Because Boxing is so big in so many more countries.. Back then guys just didn't fight.

It wasn't that hard to win a World Championship in the old days if you had the backing and influence of the Establishment.. Black men couldn't get a Heavyweight Title shot from 1913 until Louis got his shot in the mid 1930's so the talent was watered down tremendously.. Dempsey fought a fat old punching bag who hadn't fought in 4 years... Tunney beat a Dempsey who hadn't fought in 3 years... Louis beat a way below par Champion in Braddock---who hadn't fought in over 2 years and looked like Hell... Louis defended the title against joke challengers who couldn't get a shot today. Tony Galento??? FO!!! ... Marciano beat a 39-year-old many 16 times beaten washie on his last legs. Walcott was the champion by default more than anything... Patterson beat a 40-something Light Heavyweight for the title... Who fights an old Light Heavyweight today for the title?

You couldn't match those clowns with Anthony Joshua for the title -- commissioners don't want murder on their hands.

Counter-puncher wrote:

Kalan wrote:With 23, he has the most successful defenses of the Heavyweight Title

Bernard Hopkins has a large number of middleweight defences, how do you rate them?

Hopkins was 20-1 in Middleweight Title Defenses... And beat some great fighters like the 40-0 Trinidad who was number 1 P4P... And he beat 5 Light Heavyweight Champions... Sugar Ray Robinson was 3-3 in Middleweight Title Defenses and tried to beat one (1) slow and punchless Light Heavyweight, but failed.

Rocky would have beaten the devil out of him. I don't know about the other fighters though.

I think Marciano would have by far the worst chance out of those guys. An open brawler who was around the weight of today's LHWs and SMWs, though notably shorter in height and reach. Tough guy, but the size and style mix works against him...

Joshua isnt that far along in his career, but that's one I'd already confidently back him in.

RajaVarma wrote:Rocky would have beaten the devil out of him. I don't know about the other fighters though.

Rocky got decked by an old Light Heavyweight who started his pro career as a Welterweight... He looked very crude dispatching little Archie Moore in 9.

A 21-year-old Floyd Patterson got rid of Archie with speed, power, and finesse in 5.. Quite a contrast with the struggling swinger Marciano.

Struggling swinger ? Lol . You are just convinced. For a man having that short reach and small size, he is incredible with his stamina, punch power and retaliation. Who could take that kind of punishment and hit back. Just cuz he did not fight who you think is better does not make him underrated. Instead of you and me sharing these opinions, listen to what people fought with him including Muhammad Ali.if I have to think Ike you, then rocky would do brain damage to Anthony with today's training and technique.

RajaVarma wrote:Struggling swinger ? Lol . You are just convinced. For a man having that short reach and small size, he is incredible with his stamina, punch power and retaliation. Who could take that kind of punishment and hit back. Just cuz he did not fight who you think is better does not make him underrated. Instead of you and me sharing these opinions, listen to what people fought with him including Muhammad Ali.if I have to think Ike you, then rocky would do brain damage to Anthony with today's training and technique.

Well yeah...Marciano WAS very good considering his lack of height, weight, reach, speed, skills, and athletic gifts -- but Rocky slid into a slot during Fistic History when the Heavyweight Division was at it's all time weakest point... He was also the best managed and matched boxer in Fistic History.

When Nino Valdes beat Ezzard Charles to become number 1 contender in 1953 it was a cinch he wasn't going to get a Rocky fight. Not that Valdez was any good as a Heavyweight. He was big, slow, inept, easy to hit, easy to KO. He didn't get the fight because he was big, tall, and strong for that time period. The excuse they made was that Valdes was so terrible a boxer that nobody wanted to see Rocky fight Valdes. George Foreman didn't have a lot of boxing finesse either -- when he faced skilled boxers -- but George was still the wrong guy for short, stubby Joe Frazier to fight because styles are a key factor.

Charlie Goldman knew a lot about boxing styles.. When Bob Baker beat Nino Valdes in a "Title Elimination Fight" Al Weill said "It was an elimination fight all right. They're both so bad they eliminated each other." Fact is, Goldman didn't want Rocky facing the 210-pound Baker because of the style match-up.

And let's just be truthful... Marciano would have less chance vs Anthony Joshua than Patterson had against Liston... It's a suicide mission.

He beats the lot of them. He's not even at his peak either.