The FEATHERWEIGHT game: *VOTE CLOSED*

[Seamus]

Anyone can figure it out without difficulty. Doesn't matter one way or another.

[Keko]

Anyone can count the points and it makes no sense not to do updates.
After some we have all the same as we have so far had the other categories.

[Techno89]

My top 10 is:

1.Willie Pep
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Salvador Sanchez
4.Kid Chocolate
5.Alexis Arguello
6.Naseem Hamed
7.Marco Antonio Barrera
8.Eusebio Pedroza
9.George Dixon
10.Abe Attell

[Crease]

Over halfway through the month. I will do an update in the next couple of hours...

[Crease]

Let's have a quick look at how things stand ten Members votes in:

CURRENT Scoreboard: (10 Members have voted)

1st - 94 pts Willie Pep
2nd - 83 pts Salvador Sanchez
3rd - 64 pts Sandy Saddler
4th - 49 pts Alexis Arguello
5th - 40 pts Henry Armstrong
6th - 38 pts Kid Chocolate
7th - 34 pts Abe Attell
8th - 33 pts Eusebio Pedroza
9th - 22 pts Freddie Miller
10th - 16 pts Naseem Hamed

11th - 15 pts George Dixon
12th - 14 pts Azumah Nelson
Tied 13th - 12 pts Johnny Kilbane
Tied 13th - 12 pts Marco Antonio Barrera
15th - 9 pts Vicente Saldivar
Tied 16th - 4 pts Terry McGovern
Tied 16th - 4 pts Jim Driscoll
18th - 3 pts Tony Canzoneri
19th - 2 pts Danny Lopez
Tied 20th - 1 pt Chris John
Tied 20th - 1 pt Barry McGuigan

Big gaps between some positions already...

[Seamus]

Johnny Kilbane at 13 is pretty shocking when you consider his accomplishments at Featherweight. Wins over HOF'ers Abe Attell, Johnny Dundee, Rocky Kansas, Kid Williams, and KO Chaney, as well as 2 wins over Frankie Burns and one over Charley White (guys who should be in HOF) and the longest reign in the division's history. I had him 2nd.

[APerno]

Johnny Kilbane at 13 is pretty shocking when you consider his accomplishments at Featherweight. Wins over HOF'ers Abe Attell, Johnny Dundee, Rocky Kansas, Kid Williams, and KO Chaney, as well as 2 wins over Frankie Burns and one over Charley White (guys who should be in HOF) and the longest reign in the division's history. I had him 2nd.

Yes - had him on my list, took him off my list, had him on my list, took him off . . . it was a tough list to compile
.

[Crease]

Yes - had him on my list, took him off my list, had him on my list, took him off . . . it was a tough list to compile.

I did the same thing with Azumah Nelson.

[Keko]

Arguello as 4th is unbelievable and shocking.
At 126lb he has a defeated against Marcel and significant win his Olivares, Kobayashi, Hernandez, Legra.
I do not see why so many points. Arguello in SFW is certainly very top but that's a different category.
Armstrong has also exaggerated overhangs points for this category.

[davie]

Arguello as 4th is unbelievable and shocking.
At 126lb he has a defeated against Marcel and significant win his Olivares, Kobayashi, Hernandez, Legra.
I do not see why so many points. Arguello in SFW is certainly very top but that's a different category.
Armstrong has also exaggerated overhangs points for this category.

This partly why I've struggled with this list. I've looked at a number of fighters who have passed through the weight class but perhaps done a lot of good stuff at super bantam or super feather.
The game is only in the 8 main weight classes, which Ithink puts modern day fighters at a disadvantage. Where in the era before extra weight classes, a fighter may have had a few more big fights at feather before moving to lightweight, the more modern day man may opt to spend a bit of time at the level between.

I've given thought to combining 126 & 130lb in the feather weight game and 118 &122 for bantam
The issue comes at the flyweight game, do I have to consider minimum, light fly, fly and super fly?
And also, I never accounted for 154lb or 168lb when doing earlier lists

[APerno]

Arguello as 4th is unbelievable and shocking.
At 126lb he has a defeated against Marcel and significant win his Olivares, Kobayashi, Hernandez, Legra.
I do not see why so many points. Arguello in SFW is certainly very top but that's a different category.
Armstrong has also exaggerated overhangs points for this category.

Yes I felt wrong judging Arguello by his featherweight record, but we are not going to do the SFW, and he didn't make the cut for LW, so where do I include him? But yea, by featherweight record alone the greatness is not there, but in his SFW run he was dominate and then he took on top LW as well . . .got to fit him in somewhere, but where?

Me putting him on the top of my list is a personal thing based on my (unpopular) head-to-head argument, which of course has all its own problems, but is not relevant to this problem; our situation here doesn't allow for a proper placement of Arguello.

[Keko]

I am all the time. looking at the results from the category in question and to make much sense.

We can always make a list of SFW, SBW,SWW and others.

Obviously we are not all equally looking at me is now clear why they are so unexpected list sometimes.

[Keko]

Arguello as 4th is unbelievable and shocking.
At 126lb he has a defeated against Marcel and significant win his Olivares, Kobayashi, Hernandez, Legra.
I do not see why so many points. Arguello in SFW is certainly very top but that's a different category.
Armstrong has also exaggerated overhangs points for this category.

Yes I felt wrong judging Arguello by his featherweight record, but we are not going to do the SFW, and he didn't make the cut for LW, so where do I include him? But yea, by featherweight record alone the greatness is not there, but in his SFW run he was dominate and then he took on top LW as well . . .got to fit him in somewhere, but where?

Me putting him on the top of my list is a personal thing based on my (unpopular) head-to-head argument, which of course has all its own problems, but is not relevant to this problem; our situation here doesn't allow for a proper placement of Arguello.

Head to head Arguello us top sure.For me he and Sanchez.
According to the results of the FW is not certain top 5

[Keko]

Arguello as 4th is unbelievable and shocking.
At 126lb he has a defeated against Marcel and significant win his Olivares, Kobayashi, Hernandez, Legra.
I do not see why so many points. Arguello in SFW is certainly very top but that's a different category.
Armstrong has also exaggerated overhangs points for this category.

This partly why I've struggled with this list. I've looked at a number of fighters who have passed through the weight class but perhaps done a lot of good stuff at super bantam or super feather.
The game is only in the 8 main weight classes, which Ithink puts modern day fighters at a disadvantage. Where in the era before extra weight classes, a fighter may have had a few more big fights at feather before moving to lightweight, the more modern day man may opt to spend a bit of time at the level between.

I've given thought to combining 126 & 130lb in the feather weight game and 118 &122 for bantam
The issue comes at the flyweight game, do I have to consider minimum, light fly, fly and super fly?
And also, I never accounted for 154lb or 168lb when doing earlier lists

That's why we need all the categories and junior categories.

FW is only 126!!!

[gilgamesh]

1. Willie Pep
2. Sandy Saddler
3. Alexis Arguello
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Salvador Sanchez
6. Abe Attell
7. Marco Antonio Barrera
8. Eusebio Pedroza
9. Kid Chocolate
10. Freddie Miller

[Tomasino]

Salvador Sanchez
Willie Pep
Sandy Saddler
Abe attel
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Miller
Terry McGovern
Alexis Argeullo
Azumah Nelson
Jim Driscoll

fornicate it. Wasn't easy. I remember the first time I watched Sanchez, which was against Gomez. I thought he was the best I'd ever seen.

[Crease]

I remember the first time I watched Sanchez, which was against Gomez. I thought he was the best I'd ever seen.

I thought the same when I first saw him in the same bout.
The guy really was something special.

[elmersalsa]

No love for the great Vicente Saldivar? To me, a top ten featherweight of all times. The 1960s fighters don't get any respect unless you're The Greatest, Smokin' Joe or the great Sonny Liston.

I gotta shake my head.

[Keko]

No love for the great Vicente Saldivar? To me, a top ten featherweight of all times. The 1960s fighters don't get any respect unless you're The Greatest, Smokin' Joe or the great Sonny Liston.

I gotta shake my head.

For me no6 great Saldivar .

[elmersalsa]

No love for the great Vicente Saldivar? To me, a top ten featherweight of all times. The 1960s fighters don't get any respect unless you're The Greatest, Smokin' Joe or the great Sonny Liston.

I gotta shake my head.

For me no5 great Saldivar .

A great all around fighter that Vicente Saldivar was. He could hang with any featherweight in history. He was the best featherweight of his era

[APerno]

No love for the great Vicente Saldivar? To me, a top ten featherweight of all times. The 1960s fighters don't get any respect unless you're The Greatest, Smokin' Joe or the great Sonny Liston.

I gotta shake my head.

For me no5 great Saldivar .

A great all around fighter that Vicente Saldivar was. He could hang with any featherweight in history. He was the best featherweight of his era

You are correct, great record/career - did not know he existed until you enlightened me - for me his career fell into that 'current vs history' void; I was young and unaware of him when he fought, (I suspect lack of American TV coverage) and his career was too recent to make the history books I have read. - Big wins over Laguna and Ramos; and an odd preoccupation with fighting Howard Winstone (who himself wasn't bad; top ten rating The Ring 1961 through 1968.)

Saldivar ranked by The Ring: #2 in 1969; #1 in 1970; #6 in 1971; not ranked in '68 and out of the top ten by 1972

Added to that, looking him up then made me aware of Jose Legra (133-11-4), who had one hell of a career as well.

The FW division seems so deep for so long; good education thank you.

[elmersalsa]

The reasons why Vicente Saldivar should be a top 10 all time featherweight:
Was world champion for 3 years and made 9 successful defenses. He didn't lose the crown in his first reign. He retired in '67 with one loss only. And that was because of a DQ. He avenged that afterwards.

He went something like 43-1? Are you kidding me? He even CLEANED UP THE FEATHERWEIGHT CLASS in spectacular fashion.

He beat Ismael Laguna in a ten rounder that could have gone either way.

He made sugar canes out of Sugar Ramos in 12 brutal rounds. He brutalized him!

He also beat some tough customers like Raul Rojas, Mitsunori Seki, Howard Winstone (3 times), Floyd Robertson, Johnny Famechon, and Jose Legra. Damn! That's some great opposition. Especially if you consider that Winstone was a hell of a boxer. No respect for this little champion. Maybe the great Muhammad Ali stole all the headlines in 1960s. Not only in boxing, but in all sports!

[APerno]

The reasons why Vicente Saldivar should be a top 10 all time featherweight:
Was world champion for 3 years and made 9 successful defenses. He didn't lose the crown in his first reign. He retired in '67 with one loss only. And that was because of a DQ. He avenged that afterwards.

He went something like 43-1? Are you kidding me? He even CLEANED UP THE FEATHERWEIGHT CLASS in spectacular fashion.

He beat Ismael Laguna in a ten rounder that could have gone either way.

He made sugar canes out of Sugar Ramos in 12 brutal rounds. He brutalized him!

He also beat some tough customers like Raul Rojas, Mitsunori Seki, Howard Winstone (3 times), Floyd Robertson, Johnny Famechon, and Jose Legra. Damn! That's some great opposition. Especially if you consider that Winstone was a hell of a boxer. No respect for this little champion. Maybe the great Muhammad Ali stole all the headlines in 1960s. Not only in boxing, but in all sports!

You need to find BoxRec a picture - too good to be just a silhouette.

[Keko]

He certainly belongs in the top 10 ,in that category but anyway we have a set of boxer that people put in the top 10 not belong here after results from 126.

[APerno]

I want to push again - we need a picture of Vicente Saldivar - this guy is too good to be a silhouette. 11 world title fights, he deserves a pic: http://boxrec.com/boxer/11594



Can anyone confirm this is he?

BTW: If I come across like I am challenging or nit-picking BoxRec for every little thing missing, it is not my intention to disrespect, nor is it out of dissatisfaction, but instead it is from an attitude of respect and admiration for the effort; there is no doubt that BoxRec is now (has replaced The Ring as,) the 'bible of boxing,' the go to source for everyone from promoters to historians, thus because we love this thing, and need this thing, we all now have an obligation to make it perfect, so think I.