Interesting comments

[Counter-puncher]

its amazing how some people are unable to conduct themselves without cvntishness

[Counter-puncher]

i can only imagine the acid reflux you get from all that bile

[Tuan_Jim]

Joe Louis was KO'd by 2 guys both under 200, one of them didn't even weigh 190. And if you think McCall and Rahman were crap, Schmelling wasn't even that good.

Tua KO'd 43 guys only 4 of which weighed less than 200. Furthermore in his 59 fights NO ONE ever looked close to knocking him out. So yes Lewis would control the distance between him and the shuffling Louis, just like he controlled the distance between him and Tua. The difference is he would fancy KO ing the 207 Louis rather than the 245 Tua.

Go on give me a bigger laugh, and tell me Joe Walcott who put Louis on his ass twice in one of their fights had greater one shot power than Lennox.

I think you’re struggling in this thread because you have such a poor grasp of boxing.

Your comments suggest you think the sport is decided like Rock ‘Em Sock ‘Em Robots. It’s a common misconception among internet fans who scan weights and records to form their judgements, rather than just studying fights and making some comparative analysis (or using a bit of common sense).

David Haye was dropped heavily by the super middle Lolenga Mock. He was knocked down by several cruisers, and stopped by Carl Thompson. Therefore giants like Klitschko and Valuev are going to destroy him. Instead it turns out that they are too slow to hit the small man square like a cruiser can do. Unless you think Jean Marc Mormeck has “greater one shot power” than Klitschko... Billups and Ocasio KOd by men without “greater one shot power” than Lewis. Holyfield doesn’t have “greater one shot power” than Lewis, yet he decked Mercer while Lewis couldn’t do a thing with him. On and on it goes. It’s really basic stuff, and you of all people should understand it. You (rightly) pick Ali over Lewis. Yet you don’t think Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks have “greater one shot power” than Lewis. So how do you reconcile that with your weight-is-everything stance?

Your aggression and hysterical emotional overreactions in this thread suggest you are at some level dimly aware that you are wrong - not a surprise when all the reasonable, intelligent sounding voices hold the opposing opinion while you have found yourself in agreement only with the clownish kalan, a poster most people have either blocked or read only for comic relief.

Like a lot of pompous idiots you are so wrapped up in your over inflated ego you don't even realise how stupid you make yourself appear.

What happened to Lock when the bigger harder hitting Haye got up and hit him?

Name the " several " Cruisers who dropped Haye, because Carl Thompson didn't.

Do you have a clue what you are waffling about . re Mormeck having " greater one shot power " than Klitchko? But feel free to remind us what happened when he fought the 6' 6", 245lb Vladimir.

So are you claiming Lewis' victories only count if he KO's the other guy? So Holy dropped Mercer, could he keep him there? Name the fighters that Lewis dropped who got up to survive, or indeed win. .

Hysterical, emotional, aggressive. Grow up you wuss, it is you and the other tabloid reading muppets that are getting your panties twisted because some of us think for ourselves and realise yesterdays heroes are just that. Old news.

Go and take your ego for a massage it might make you feel better.

You seem determined to make a fool of yourself. Carl Thompson DID drop David Haye, as did Mormeck, as did Mock. Mysteriously, Klit and Valuev could not. Evidently there's more to heavyweight boxing than girth.

That was my simple, crystal clear point.

I said you had a poor grasp of the sport. Your confused rambling response underlines this. Calling someone a "Tabloid reading muppet," apropos of nothing? Judging by your writing voice, all of your reading is done on toilet walls. To Current Scene with ye!

[Tuan_Jim]

Like a lot of pompous idiots you are so wrapped up in your over inflated ego you don't even realise how stupid you make yourself appear.

What happened to Lock when the bigger harder hitting Haye got up and hit him?

Name the " several " Cruisers who dropped Haye, because Carl Thompson didn't.

Do you have a clue what you are waffling about . re Mormeck having " greater one shot power " than Klitchko? But feel free to remind us what happened when he fought the 6' 6", 245lb Vladimir.

So are you claiming Lewis' victories only count if he KO's the other guy? So Holy dropped Mercer, could he keep him there? Name the fighters that Lewis dropped who got up to survive, or indeed win. .

Hysterical, emotional, aggressive. Grow up you wuss, it is you and the other tabloid reading muppets that are getting your panties twisted because some of us think for ourselves and realise yesterdays heroes are just that. Old news.

Go and take your ego for a massage it might make you feel better.

You seem determined to make a fool of yourself. Carl Thompson DID drop David Haye, as did Mormeck, as did Mock. Mysteriously, Klit and Valuev could not. Evidently there's more to heavyweight boxing than girth.

That was my simple, crystal clear point.

I said you had a poor grasp of the sport. Your confused rambling response underlines this. Calling someone a "Tabloid reading muppet," apropos of nothing? Judging by your writing voice, all of your reading is done on toilet walls. To Current Scene with ye!

So what is your pathetic point. You mouthed off that Haye was knocked down by a Super Middle in Mock, who he got up and stopped. You then claimed he was knocked down by " several " Cruisers which was in fact TWO, one of which he got up and stopped. So much like yourself, your claim of several is pure garbage. He was also knocked down by Barrett and Klitchko. And?

Still waiting for you to name the fighters Lewis dropped who got up to last the distance. Toilet walls reading would be far too complicated for you, as is boxing. You might find you are more suited to Tiddlywinks because you certainly DKSAB.

You really are a glutton for punishment.

Lolenga Mock, normally a super middle, boxed at 183, ergo a cruiser. Mock, Thompson, Mormeck - the several crusiers who knocked down David Haye.

Name a fighter who Lewis dropped who got up to last the distance: Tony Tucker.

Your need to drag the conversation away from the clean, straight rebuttals I made and instead attempt to win a game of pedantics (which you have failed to do, again) says it all.

[elmersalsa]

What question?

You are trying to invent people who NEVER existed. There was no such fighter as a 230 Joe Louis, neither was there such a fighter as a 200 pound Lennox Lewis. So what the fuk are you waffling on about?

Here are 2 more people that never existed. Superman, and Indiana Jones. Who wins?

It is really quite simple. From what you have seen of Louis, and Lewis who do you think would win if they fought each other in their primes? Here is a simple example. From what I saw of a prime Ali, and a prime Lewis I think Ali wins. I dont give a shite that Lennox had all the size, reach and weight advantages. Ali was just too good, Louis wasn't.

So you're saying that Lennox Lewis was better skilled than the great Joe Louis?

You're saying if Louis were 240lbs with the same speed and skills, he loses to Lennox?

Just answer the question. Don't make it complicated.

Take your drivel to a psychoanalyst they might be able to help you with your obsession with non existent people.

In answer to the part of the drivel that DOES make sense YES Lewis had better skills than Louis, the main one being able to control the distance between him and his opponent. Louis was too small, too light, and too slow to shuffle in close to Lennox to throw his short armed punches. Lewis decapitates him from distance with as much ease as he put the 240+ Rahman to sleep. Think Usain Bolt v Jesse Owens at 100 meters, and that will give you some idea.

On second thoughts don't, because your over imaginative pea brain will try to create a 6' 5" 200+ Jesse Owen who again never existed. Nope it's Indiana Jones, and Superman for you Elmer.

If your opinion is that Lennox Lewis had better skills than the Brown Bomber, fine. You didn't have to run from the question. Now, I know your answer. Next time, don't make your answers too long. Just be straight to the point. It would be easier for everyone.

[BoxBuzz]

If I honestly had to boil the major differences down in this thread it would seem fairly simple.

Some think that when you hit the HW ranks the basic "differences" found in the lower weight classes are less relevant.

I have to say, when I type it out like that....I'm drawn to Kalan's and G.O's take that (if I interpret it correctly, which Kalan insists I'm not capable of) A good big man will generally beat a good small man...all things being equal.

But....(and this is an Oprah size butt.).....at the higher weights, the pluses of size, and the quickness of less weight get more interesting and it surely does not have quite the same relevance as in the lower weights. I've always thought that welter is the weight where the human frame is at it's most pound for pound overall capable. And if we are getting bigger, perhaps it's time to consider Middleweight as that "perfection point" based on the human anatomy.

So...it's a good debate, and I'm not sure there's a moron in the room on this subject. But apparently if you are one side of the equation, reducing your debate partner to moron, helps you make your point.

I can not imagine a Super HW that can operate at WW efficiency in any way shape or form. Bring those guys up pound for pound and they would likely annihilate the competition. But.....the jungle does not account for weight discrepancy and the Lion beats the shrew every time.

And I've had people say here that Rocky vs Kllitscko would be a "fair fight". And I think to myself...really? Maybe it's time to divvy out a few more weight classes in the above 200 range.

But in my minds eye, I do see a Joe Louis, and a Muhammad Ali doing just fine with bigger fighters. Duran held the MW title, as did SRR and of course Henry Armstrong fouled (according to special K) his way into the heavier divisions and left his mark. So their is room for the exceptional experiencing success with bigger competition.

I believe the upper ends of the human dimensions don't pan out quite the same as the lower more typical divisions. So the differences and their outcomes on the potential of the fighter, are more difficult to sort. I would imagine that the anatomical math regarding Flesh/bone/Muscle ratios get more complex and harder to predict as to just how efficient a fighting machine can be produced at the upper ends of the human construct.

Thus the opposing legitimate/relevant/considerable viewpoints on behalf of folks blessed with relatively the same IQ's.

It's more akin to rocket science than it is to hop scotch.

[Counter-puncher]

.

But....(and this is an Oprah size butt.).....at the higher weights, the pluses of size, and the quickness of less weight get more interesting and it surely does not have quite the same relevance as in the lower weights. I've always thought that welter is the weight where the human frame is at it's most pound for pound overall capable.

I can not imagine a Super HW that can operate at WW efficiency in any way shape or form. Bring those guys up pound for pound and they would likely annihilate the competition. But.....the jungle does not account for weight discrepancy and the Lion beats the shrew every time.

But in my minds eye, I do see a Joe Louis, and a Muhammad Ali doing just fine with bigger fighters. Duran held the MW title, as did SRR and of course Henry Armstrong fouled (according to special K) his way into the heavier divisions and left his mark. So their is room for the exceptional experiencing success with bigger competition.

I believe the upper ends of the human dimensions don't pan out quite the same as the lower more typical divisions. So the differences and their outcomes on the potential of the fighter, are more difficult to sort. I would imagine that the anatomical math regarding Flesh/bone/Muscle ratios get more complex and harder to predict as to just how efficient a fighting machine can be produced at the upper ends of the human construct.
.

These are solid points, in my opinion, though possibly too nuanced for some

[elmersalsa]

I have always said that boxing is and will always be about weight classifications than skill when it comes to match two different fighters of different frames.

I can't picture a Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano, as great as they were, beating at least good big men after the reign of the great Sonny Liston.

I believe that THE REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS started since the reign of Liston and up. Liston could whip any heavyweight of any era. Why? He got the tools and the size, the perfect size to compete against any heavyweight before or after him. He was that good, no matter of his strange and controversial defeats to The Greatest, who I also believe that he can compete with any heavyweight of any era, including the big heavyweights we got now. He was also that good.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Liston wasn't bigger than Louis.

[Kalan]

I have always said that boxing is and will always be about weight classifications than skill when it comes to match two different fighters of different frames.

I can't picture a Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano, as great as they were, beating at least good big men after the reign of the great Sonny Liston.

I believe that THE REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS started since the reign of Liston and up. Liston could whip any heavyweight of any era. Why? He got the tools and the size, the perfect size to compete against any heavyweight before or after him. He was that good, no matter of his strange and controversial defeats to The Greatest, who I also believe that he can compete with any heavyweight of any era, including the big heavyweights we got now. He was also that good.

SaadOffTheDeck

Liston wasn't bigger than Louis

Liston was a great Heavyweight and was easily the best Heavyweight of the 1950's without a shadow of a doubt... But he would have been in extremely tough with many Heavyweight Champions... Certainly with the masterful Jack Johnson who beat Jim Jeffries -- and certainly with Larry Holmes, Tim Witherspoon, the Evander Holyfield who beat Mike Tyson -- and for certain Joshua, Lewis, Ortiz, and the K Bros were too big, tall, strong, fast, smart, and skilled for 6'1" X 215 Liston at their best.. Liston couldn't take out little Eddie Machen, who was easily beaten by Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson.. Machen wouldn't have lasted long against the top modern Heavyweights.. That was a prime Sonny Liston and he only weighed 211 for Machen -- who weighed only 196. He bullied Machen around the ring and decked him, but couldn't hurt him. Joe Louis didn't have Eddie Machen's solid chin, but was about his size and their skills were similar. Machen was more of a crafty boxer. Louis was more of a stalker and attacker with more punching power and better technique prime for prime. He would have been right in Liston's wheelhouse like Patterson was.

And Sonny Liston was a much bigger man physically than Joe Louis.. 174-pound Billy Conn would have gone quickly...eaten by Liston's jab and inside game.. 192-pound Schmeling would have been a Floyd Patterson style job.. Schmeling couldn't jab, and Liston didn't drop his jab like Louis did.. Guys like Walcott, Charles, and Marciano wouldn't have stood a chance in Hell had they faced a prime Sonny Liston. Too damned small and not brutally powerful like Sonny.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan.....maybe you need to define "Physically" for the rest of us.


Saad is right, and you APPEAR to be wrong on this.

Joe was taller and often they weighed in about the same.

So.....In which new world that scientists just discovered, does that make Liston "bigger"?

I really am puzzled with that.

Did you mean he was bigger mentally, emotionally, spiritually?


If I even see the word "frame".....I'm coming back with the word "lame".

[Ambling Alp II]

So just to get this right, because the 230+ pounders McCall and Rahman KO'd Lewis the 215 Liston or Foreman must do also. I suppose we should be grateful that you haven't gone as far as some of the self appointed experts on here and said the 185 Marciano is a shoo in to KO him as well.

Have you ever considered none of those guys ever faced anyone who hit as hard as either Lewis or Vlad? We even have some comedians on here who believe that because Louis beat the giant plums Carnera, Buddy Baer, and Abe Simon, he can't possibly lose to Lewis or a K2 brother. It doesn't get much more stupid than that. One overhand right thrown from 4 feet away by either Lewis or Vlad, and Joe Louis is asleep until they revive him.

What if The Brown Bomber had the same skills but is bigger in size at let's say 235lbs vs a Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis or any of the heavyweight behemoths of today? Does these monsters beat somebody as skilled as the great Joe Louis at 235lbs? Or let's say all the boxers weigh in the same, at 200lbs? Are the Klitschko brothers skills prevail?

But Louis wasn't 235 was he? The trouble with you nostalgia freaks is you want to state that Joe beat three 240 lb plums in Carnera, Baer and Simon, but when the obvious is pointed out to you that none of them could hold a candle to Lewis or the K2 brothers, you cry " Oh but we want a 230 lb Joe Louis."

So which is it, can Joe handle any and every 240+ guy, or just those with limited talent?

Lennox Lewis vs Joe Louis would have been interesting. Lewis was a great fighter. Watch his fights against a way past it Holyfield who was not much bigger than Louis. No reason to think Lewis would not struggle against a prime Joe Louis.
Wladimir Klitschko had some skills. He also had major weakneses. He had a glass jaw and poor stamina. He would be in major trouble against fighter whith decent power. Louis had a lot of power. Louis would have stopped him early.

Vitaly Kltischko does not have impressive skills at all. No he was not more talneted than Buddy Baer or Primo Carnera. Louis would have little trouble handling him. Maybe Vitaly was a plum, whatever that is supposed to mean.

[bwu]

Interesting debate. Many interesting points from all side. However, with all the concentration on the physical aspects we are overlooking the mental component. Joe Louis was at his best on the night of the Max Schmeling rematch. No athlete has ever had to deal with the kind of pressure that Louis was facing, both professionally and otherwise. Excepting Ali, who was just too damn fast, I think Louis at his best overcomes every other heavyweight, whatever their size.

[APerno]

. . . and considering the issue being debated I am amazed there has not been not a single mention of Wilt . . .yet!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Interesting debate. Many interesting points from all side. However, with all the concentration on the physical aspects we are overlooking the mental component. Joe Louis was at his best on the night of the Max Schmeling rematch. No athlete has ever had to deal with the kind of pressure that Louis was facing, both professionally and otherwise. Excepting Ali, who was just too damn fast, I think Louis at his best overcomes every other heavyweight, whatever their size.

I wouldn't favor Joe over everyone or rule him out against Ali, but it's comical to see people calling him a dwarf against Liston because he was taller and weighed 7 or so pounds less. Obviously keyboard warriors like kalan who have never been in a fight, much less a ring, don't comprehend athletics or Boxing. Not that you need to have fought to be versed in the sport, but an actual fist fight or athletic competition would allow you to know that 6 pounds is not BIGGER.

[APerno]

I remember when Ali fought Liston they had the tale of the tape stats in the build up. You know the normal stuff.

Height
Reach
Chest normal
Chest expanded
Biceps
Forearms
Wrists
Fists
Thighs
Calf's

I wonder how many of Boxrecs self appointed experts who think half a stone of weight on a ripped athlete is " nothing " would want those posted if they were available for Louis and Liston?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Liston's freakish reach and intimidating look have always had people acting like he was a giant. No explanation why people want Louis to be diminutive.

[Tuan_Jim]

Liston's freakish reach and intimidating look have always had people acting like he was a giant. No explanation why people want Louis to be diminutive.

Golden oldie's performance in this thread is the most embarrassing one ever seen on Boxrec.

[evrenb]

If olden goalie is using Listons weight of 220lb as some sort of barometer for his size he (she ) will then appreciate that was Liston in later life...the Liston who was kayoed by the 199lbs 6ft leotis Martin..lol...don't start cherry picking stats from a fighters resume to add weight to your arguments when it suits you. As you can see I can do the same....
I do agree that the 17 1/2 Stone 6ft 5 inch Lennox Lewis would beat the 185 Marciano ..but I also believe the 15st 11lb version of Lewis beats Marciano.
Using George Foremans weight in examples is also very misleading. He intentionally boiled himself down to that weight as that was the weight the top pros were fighting at in that era (intentionally). I have spent time with Foreman (during comeback) Lennox Lewis when he had a house in Danson and Rahman. Foreman was as big as Lewis (not in height) and looked considerably bigger than Rahman. (Though Rahman looked solid at 16 stones)
Most fighters are heavier when they get older and most top pros are priming later in life now. (I'm talking about natural muscle..not PED enhanced size and weight).

Lewis fought in the 15stones
wladimir fought in the 15 stones
Wlad killer Sanders fought under 15 stones
Wlad killer brewster fought at 15st 3lbs

I do agree Joshua is huge and solid at 16stones.+..probably the biggest natural sized all rounder.
Deontay Wilder has fought at a lower weight than Joe Louis in the pros...if you wanted to misinterpret statistics.


Joe Louis wasn't small at 6ft 2 inch 76 reach and solid 200lbs...again if he had chosen the physique of modern heavies he would be heavier (PED ENHANCED) or pot bellied. They didn't then with a few freakish exceptions.

[APerno]

I know many on this forum believe height-weight-reach are tangible items that can dictate the outcome of a prize fight, but I have always been an advocate of the argument that nothing matter’s more than ankle size.

Louis’ ankle size, the night of the Marciano fight, was 10” – while Liston (Patterson II) was a powerful 12” – there is just no way Louis would have overcome a two inch ankle deficit - issued settled. – Thank You!

My point is, why did they measure the guy's ankle?

[Tuan_Jim]

If olden goalie is using Listons weight of 220lb as some sort of barometer for his size he (she ) will then appreciate that was Liston in later life...the Liston who was kayoed by the 199lbs 6ft leotis Martin..lol...don't start cherry picking stats from a fighters resume to add weight to your arguments when it suits you. As you can see I can do the same....
I do agree that the 17 1/2 Stone 6ft 5 inch Lennox Lewis would beat the 185 Marciano ..but I also believe the 15st 11lb version of Lewis beats Marciano.
Using George Foremans weight in examples is also very misleading. He intentionally boiled himself down to that weight as that was the weight the top pros were fighting at in that era (intentionally). I have spent time with Foreman (during comeback) Lennox Lewis when he had a house in Danson and Rahman. Foreman was as big as Lewis (not in height) and looked considerably bigger than Rahman. (Though Rahman looked solid at 16 stones)
Most fighters are heavier when they get older and most top pros are priming later in life now. (I'm talking about natural muscle..not PED enhanced size and weight).

Lewis fought in the 15stones
wladimir fought in the 15 stones
Wlad killer Sanders fought under 15 stones
Wlad killer brewster fought at 15st 3lbs

I do agree Joshua is huge and solid at 16stones.+..probably the biggest natural sized all rounder.
Deontay Wilder has fought at a lower weight than Joe Louis in the pros...if you wanted to misinterpret statistics.


Joe Louis wasn't small at 6ft 2 inch 76 reach and solid 200lbs...again if he had chosen the physique of modern heavies he would be heavier (PED ENHANCED) or pot bellied. They didn't then with a few freakish exceptions.

Trying to explain to gormless Boxrec and Youtube surfers that old-time heavyweights intentionally whittled their bodies down so that they could fight upwards of 15 rounds at a frenetic pace is among the most difficult tasks on the internet.

Sisyphus, I salute thee!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The notion that just because there is no weight limit you should just be fat was lost on them. Of course training and nutrition has improved to the point that heavyweights are exhausted after 3 rounds if they go at it.

[Tony1244]

7

You call people stupidly arrogant and then write such awful language and spit venom at people?? You and your buddy Kalan are partners in trolling.

I think you have me seriously confused with someone who gives a toss what you and the usual suspects think.

Gosh let us not invite you to the next Christmas party. You sound 'fun'...

He's just a charmer, isn't he?

[evrenb]

The notion that just because there is no weight limit you should just be fat was lost on them. Of course training and nutrition has improved to the point that heavyweights are exhausted after 3 rounds if they go at it.

Lmao...so true....

[Tony1244]

Liston's freakish reach and intimidating look have always had people acting like he was a giant. No explanation why people want Louis to be diminutive.

Golden oldie's performance in this thread is the most embarrassing one ever seen on Boxrec.

Crawl back under the stone from whence you came you fool. My assertions were RIGHT, Liston was a BIGGER man than Joe Louis.

Unfortunately clueless vermin like you, counter puncher, ambling alp, and a few others contaminate the internet with a mixture of you're idiocy and you're arrogance. Suffice to say you are the kind of scum that need a boxing ring within which to hide. Real violence is beyond you.

People like you make my skin crawl. I envisage you as the type who would try to intimidate women and kids, but faced with a guy with a gun, would lose control of you're bowels.

Saying someone intimidates women and children, is a scum, and is vermin because you differ on a nuance of a debate between Liston and Louis' size is totally normal. Nothing to see here.