BoxRec

bollocks wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

bollocks wrote:
It was Jones's 21st fight to Hopkins' 24th fight. Amateur experience counts for not very much in the pros

What a ridiculous statement.

Why is is ridiculous? They're different kettles of fish altogether. Marvin Hagler had very little amateur experience yet achieved everything as a pro. Mark Breland was the most feted US amateur ever, yet was a bust as a pro

That is one one example of a fighter with little amateur experience and one with a lot. On average the odds of a guy with a lot of experience and success in the amateurs will be more successful as a professional than someone who didn't.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

bollocks wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:
What a ridiculous statement.

Why is is ridiculous? They're different kettles of fish altogether. Marvin Hagler had very little amateur experience yet achieved everything as a pro. Mark Breland was the most feted US amateur ever, yet was a bust as a pro

That is one one example of a fighter with little amateur experience and one with a lot. On average the odds of a guy with a lot of experience and success in the amateurs will be more successful as a professional than someone who didn't.

Thanks Alp, I couldn't be bothered replying. Imagine two guys of similar age and pro record being matched, only one of them is a decorated amateur and a de facto Olympic gold medallist. How can anyone miss who the favourite is?

I would go with Hopkins. Some people claim Bernard was "inexperienced" at that time (debatable IMHO), it is just that I see bigger taints on other wins.

Ruiz: sure, HW championship is an achievement, but unlike almost all other fights, Ruiz was not allowed to hug and hold excesively - and he would be nowhere close to championship without that otherwise (the other championship fight when he did not hold too much was against Toney - also initially lost by Ruiz before Toney was tested positive).

Toney: it had potential to be a great fight, but Toney ruined it. He had a lot of weight to lose even one day before the fight and clearly was not in the best shape (not RJJ fault at all, but you get the point).

Tarver: WTF??? RJJ should've lost this one in opinion of majority (see punchstats and RJJ face after the fight), unfortunately 2 of 3 judges thought otherwise.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

bollocks wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:
What a ridiculous statement.

Why is is ridiculous? They're different kettles of fish altogether. Marvin Hagler had very little amateur experience yet achieved everything as a pro. Mark Breland was the most feted US amateur ever, yet was a bust as a pro

That is one one example of a fighter with little amateur experience and one with a lot. On average the odds of a guy with a lot of experience and success in the amateurs will be more successful as a professional than someone who didn't.

So Jones should have been more successful based on their respective amateur experience? That doesn't make sense

I know one thing for a fact....he was certainly more successful during their fight and that was based on the fact he was the better fighter, not the more experienced fighter

Your premise mirrors your moniker. If you can't distinguish between prison boxing and the highest level of amateur boxing you're as dense as a 200 pound biscuit. By your logic Lamar Clark was more seasoned than Cassius clay.

Saad, off the dick......I'm saying that any amateur experience Roy Jones had, meant nothing against Bernard Hopkins. He won because he was the superior fighter rather than because of his amateur experience

bollocks wrote:Saad, off the dick......I'm saying that any amateur experience Roy Jones had, meant nothing against Bernard Hopkins. He won because he was the superior fighter rather than because of his amateur experience

Jones was the more experienced and seasoned fighter, neither were in their primes. You tossed out Hopkins having more fights and that wins you the boobie prize. I wouldn't know what it's like to say something that stupid, but it astounds me that people like yourself can't just admit you spoke out of turn and get on with your life.

You are a fuckwit

bollocks wrote:You are a fuckwit

Perhaps, I'm not the one embarrassing myself in this thread.

Having a lot of amateur experience is helpful, especially at the beginning of your career. When Hopkins began his career he fought a four-round fight against another guy making his debut. He lost.
Jones first fight he was already fighting fights scheduled for 8 rounds.
Hopkins was an unknown when Jones fought him. In Hopkins title shot, he had a draw against a no-name. He was not the fighter he would eventually become. Jones wasn't either, but he was closer.

Having an extensive amateur career is not a guarantee for success in the pros. However, you are developing the basics (jab, hooks, uppercuts, head movement, foot movement, cutting off the ring, etc.) in the amateurs. Not to mention getting a taste of the atmosphere of being in the ring with another man.

Jones biggest win the Toney win. (Always ignore weight drained excuses. They are the "my dog ate my homework" excuses of boxing.)
If you want to show someone how great Jones was, that is the fight to show.

bollocks wrote: Marvin Hagler had very little amateur experience yet achieved everything as a pro.

Hagler won the 'outstanding boxer' trophy at an amateur tournament also attended by a young Ray Leonard (" In 1973, Hagler became the National AAU 165-pound champion after defeating Terry Dobbs of Atlanta. Hagler was named the outstanding boxer of the tournament, winning four fights, two of them by knockout").
I believe he had a record something like 55-3.

Sugar Ray won about 145 amateur bouts. He only lost 5. That is some kind of amateur record.

The great Muhammad Ali only lost 8 amateur bouts and won 175 fights. Amazing.

Ruiz was way over his best weight for Ruiz, so NO to that one ... Roy might have peaked in the Pazienza fight so far as speed, power, and skills go...

But his best fight by far was Montel Griffin II ... Roy thought about that fight a lot... Studied everything that Griffin did... Got every move he made down... Then he got in there and executed... Remember that Griffin was a good fighter before that -- he beat James Toney twice.. He fought a Hell of a fight against Roy in their first match-up.. Everybody thought the rematch would be a terror -- a classic.

Then Roy busted his ass like nobody's business. I don't think he was ever the same.

elmersalsa wrote:Sugar Ray won about 145 amateur bouts. He only lost 5. That is some kind of amateur record.

The great Muhammad Ali only lost 8 amateur bouts and won 175 fights. Amazing.

Ali never came close to fighting 175 amateur fights, much less winning that many... Even his boxing sites claim only 100 wins and 8 losses for him... All those losses can be documented but not that many wins.

Vasyl Lomachenko fought 397 amateur fights and his record is 396-1 ... Gillermo Rigondeaux claimed an amateur record of 463-12...Gennady Golovkin was 345-5.. Lazlo Papp won 3 Olympic Gold Medals and his amateur record was 301-12.. Mark Breland's amateur record was 110-1.. and those are probably the top amateurs of all time so far as W/L's go.. Lomachenko and Rigondeaux won 2 Olympic Gold Medals each.

Hopkins and Toney were his best p4p wins. Beating Ruiz was a great accomplishment, but not a p4p type fighter. But in hindsight, Toney probably trumps all other opponents when talking about how good the fighters were at the time Roy fought them.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Having a lot of amateur experience is helpful, especially at the beginning of your career. When Hopkins began his career he fought a four-round fight against another guy making his debut. He lost.
Jones first fight he was already fighting fights scheduled for 8 rounds.
Hopkins was an unknown when Jones fought him. In Hopkins title shot, he had a draw against a no-name. He was not the fighter he would eventually become. Jones wasn't either, but he was closer.

Having an extensive amateur career is not a guarantee for success in the pros. However, you are developing the basics (jab, hooks, uppercuts, head movement, foot movement, cutting off the ring, etc.) in the amateurs. Not to mention getting a taste of the atmosphere of being in the ring with another man.

Jones biggest win the Toney win. (Always ignore weight drained excuses. They are the "my dog ate my homework" excuses of boxing.)
If you want to show someone how great Jones was, that is the fight to show.

The win over Toney didn't prove a lot because Toney wasn't ready to perform... Toney had a lot of bad fights, including Drake Thadzi, David Tiberi, and the 2 Montel Griffin fights.. Toney was often poorly trained.. From his mid career fights onward he wasn't a disciplined individual just a very talented one.. Likewise I wouldn't say the 1st Hopkins fight showed Roy at his best.. Roy was still getting better for a long time after that fight and was never the technician Hopkins later became in his late 30's. The Montel Griffin rematch showed Roy's boxing and punching ability to the nth degree he could push them.

Kalan wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:Sugar Ray won about 145 amateur bouts. He only lost 5. That is some kind of amateur record.

The great Muhammad Ali only lost 8 amateur bouts and won 175 fights. Amazing.

Ali never came close to fighting 175 amateur fights, much less winning that many... Even his boxing sites claim only 100 wins and 8 losses for him... All those losses can be documented but not that many wins.

Vasyl Lomachenko fought 397 amateur fights and his record is 396-1 ... Gillermo Rigondeaux claimed an amateur record of 463-12...Gennady Golovkin was 345-5.. Lazlo Papp won 3 Olympic Gold Medals and his amateur record was 301-12.. Mark Breland's amateur record was 110-1.. and those are probably the top amateurs of all time so far as W/L's go.. Lomachenko and Rigondeaux won 2 Olympic Gold Medals each.

Those are very impressive amateur records of GGG, Rigondeaux, Breland and Papp.

But, Cassius Clay's amateur record was just as impressive.

Some sources say that Cassius Clay had records of 127-8, 134-7, 99-8 and 100-8. It would not surprise me if has won more than 120 fights. He was that good.

For me, Roy has 3 really big victories...

(in chronological order)

1 - Bernard Hopkins
Knowing now how much both men would go on to achieve in their careers, this really was 2 all-time greats butting heads when they were young. A really, really good victory for Roy to have on his resume'.

2 - Montell Griffin
The man who took Roy's unbeaten record. What Roy did to him in the rematch was jaw-dropping... I've never seen a fighter land Left Hooks with such ease and precision - and so regularly.

3 - John Ruiz
It was just History in the making, wasn't it?
Who would have though we would see a Middleweight World Champ rise through the division and become a World Heavyweight Champion?
Definitely a remarkable achievement.

What some people are overlooking is that nobody had even heard of Hopkins when Jones beat him. Hopkins had not beaten anybody woth mentioning yet. He was not the fighter that he would later become. The year fter the Jones fight, Hopkins cold only get a draw against a stiff named Segundo Mercado.

I guess the Griffin fight was impressive. Always hard to rate a first round KO becasue some of it has to do with the opponent's poor perfromance. Worth a shout though.
Ruiz was a big win considering he had never fought a heavyweight before.

Still, the Toney fight seems to be the real one here.

Toney gave it to him. He was way out of shape.

Which was his best and/or defining win?

Best win has to be James Toney, but maybe only on paper. But he schooled him. I don't care about Toney being unhealthy bla bla.
Defining I would say is James Toney. RJJ moved up, challenged an undefeated, immovable Toney.

What was his best KO win?

I really liked the Griffin knockout.. But i'm going for Glenn Kelly! Can't beat that.

Regardless of win/loss.. Who was his best opponent?

Calzaghe was reaching the end of his prime when they fought. His best opponent, has to be Toney.

loudon wrote: ↑16 Apr 2017, 21:57
Regarding Antonio Tarver, he was very dangerous. He was a rangy southpaw, with good skills, and who was extremely motivated. He was also much fresher than Roy, having fought just over 20 times going into the fight. Again, Roy had fought almost 50 fights, and he had to burn muscle in just a few months just to make the weight. He was absolutely exhausted in the 2nd of half of the fight.

That was Roy's excuse for his bad showing in the 1st Tarver Fight...

Tarver said as they faced off for the rematch, "I have a question...You gonna have any excuses tonight Roy???" ... I laughed my ass off.

Ruiz

Noxy wrote: ↑05 Dec 2017, 17:42Ruiz

Arguably his best win.. Who would you say was his best opponent.