BoxRec

Syntax Error wrote:One major difference between the two is how they react under pressure.

If Bruno was in there last night, he would have been TKOd long before round 11.

Bruno could not react under pressure & would just freeze, get lit up like a Christmas tree, then the referee would have to save him.

Bruno probably had a better chin, as you had to really bang to knock him off his feet, but he definitely could not have come back from adversity the way Joshua did last night.

Spot on.

Btw neither are chinny. Except iron mike nobody blasted Bruno out there. He got took out late. Bruno weren't chinny he just didn't have the ability to survive when tagged big. Rabbit in the head lights type situation.

Joshua got put down by a big punch. This is boxing. He got up. He's not chinny

bbjc wrote:Both similar. Pretty sure bruno did once come back after looking out of it against jumbo cummings and held on against mcall. Joshua probably the power advantage...more explosive than frank.
More fight in him.


Suffer the same type of thing tho. When bruno got tagged he shut down mentally. His brain went. Joshua doesnt suffer from that what he does suffer from tho is when he gets tagged he shuts down physically. Hes mentally better than frank with a punch. But he does physically shut down...for too long. His incredible fitness is seeing him through to give him his second wind. But its a matter of time before he gets knocked out. Because it takes him too long to recuperate. Hes actually got a bit lucky in that klitchko was that bit too old to capitalise and dillon whyte buckled his shoulder as he was going in for the kill. Plus his size helps him. But its a big weakness they cant do much to fix. I say it comes back to haunt him in the future.

That was tremendous heart last nite tho from him.

I recall the time Klitschko went in for the kill against a badly hurt opponent:

And he punched himself out against Lamon Brewster, who stopped him in five.

Which is why he's spent the mature part of his career being such an...economical fighter.

boxingknockout wrote:After last night, although there are similarities, Joshua is far superior in many ways. And that includes his chin and reaction when tagged.

Most interestingly, Josh got a really good second wind, whereas when Bruno was gassed, he stayed that way.

Yup, spot on, despite his rigidity big Frank with his physical strength, 'ramrod' jab and big right hand was a handful for anyone, as you say what let him down though was that he had no powers of recovery, once he was gassed he stayed gassed.
Frank wasn't great at letting his hands go as well, his combinations tended to consist of 2 or 3 punches, there wasn't much variety there either, straight lefts and rights and that was about all, when he did throw a hook it looked cumbersome.
Joshua, for a big muscular fella, can put together some impressive flurry's of punches, okay he struggled last night but Wlad is an old campaigner and a master at shutting people down.
it was practically impossible not to support Bruno, he was such an affable bloke and his Cosell/Ali type double act with Harry Carpenter made him a cult figure back in the 80's.

Autobarn wrote:

bbjc wrote:Both similar. Pretty sure bruno did once come back after looking out of it against jumbo cummings and held on against mcall. Joshua probably the power advantage...more explosive than frank.
More fight in him.


Suffer the same type of thing tho. When bruno got tagged he shut down mentally. His brain went. Joshua doesnt suffer from that what he does suffer from tho is when he gets tagged he shuts down physically. Hes mentally better than frank with a punch. But he does physically shut down...for too long. His incredible fitness is seeing him through to give him his second wind. But its a matter of time before he gets knocked out. Because it takes him too long to recuperate. Hes actually got a bit lucky in that klitchko was that bit too old to capitalise and dillon whyte buckled his shoulder as he was going in for the kill. Plus his size helps him. But its a big weakness they cant do much to fix. I say it comes back to haunt him in the future.

That was tremendous heart last nite tho from him.

I recall the time Klitschko went in for the kill against a badly hurt opponent:

And he punched himself out against Lamon Brewster, who stopped him in five.

Which is why he's spent the mature part of his career being such an...economical fighter.

Good shout actually. But with joshua if you hurt him you ve got to throw the kitchen sink at him because hes so dangerous in there. Let him off the leash and theres a good chance he does what he ended up doing last night.

Syntax Error wrote:One major difference between the two is how they react under pressure.

If Bruno was in there last night, he would have been TKOd long before round 11.

Bruno could not react under pressure & would just freeze, get lit up like a Christmas tree, then the referee would have to save him.

Bruno probably had a better chin, as you had to really bang to knock him off his feet, but he definitely could not have come back from adversity the way Joshua did last night.

Frank was beaten twice by Iron Mike - an all time great and one of the best finishers the world has ever seen, a golden performer in Lennox Lewis who was flying high having picked up the WBC World strap, Tim Witherspoon and big punching Bonecrusher Smith.

Comparing Franks shortcomings to those exhibited by AJ against Dillian Whyte and again last night following his visit to the canvas against Klitschko and sudden loss of cohesion shortly after. Well you can't can you?

Joshua is a hell of a lot lighter on his feet than Bruno and can get away from trouble, apart from that, they are very much identical stylewise, Bruno probably has more one punch power but watching him against Wlad - it was like watching a more nimble footed Bruno - with better recuperating skills.

Oiky wrote:
If Joshua fights someone who will stick on him like a shark that smells blood after he gets hit then Joshua will be well and truly done for imo

Who is that exactly?

The problem here is you're talking like Joshua was exposed when in reality he was fighting against a big punching guy who finally proved why many people had been revering him so highly over the years. Not the performance of a typical 41 year old, not close. Maybe Wlad's best performance ever.

Your point seems to be that Joshua isn't allowed to have rocky moments against arguably today's best heavyweight outside of him. It doesn't make sense. Holmes getting knocked down by Shavers highlighted how amazing it was for Larry to come back and win, it didn't reasonably call into question Holmes' future ability to see out fights against punchers.

Syntax Error wrote:Bruno could not react under pressure & would just freeze

Bruno probably had a better chin

That's what I was gonna say. Bruno had the far better jab and chin, but he didn't have much evasive movement when he was unhurt, so all that he could do when he was was stand and trade.

Joshua's completely static and wide open when he gasses, but otherwise he has some nice movement on the backfoot. If losing a stone's the difference between concrete boots and retaining that mobility...

For me, Joshua sees more of the fight, but Bruno — at this stage — was better.

If you are comparing them you have to do it at the same stage of their careers. After 19 fights Bruno hadn't won a domestic title or beaten any ranked HW, the gulf in opposition is night and day. AJ will improve and the huge advantage he has over most fighters is he doesn't seem to get easily fazed or nervous. That was one of Bruno's downfalls.

bbjc wrote:Good shout actually. But with joshua if you hurt him you ve got to throw the kitchen sink at him because hes so dangerous in there. Let him off the leash and theres a good chance he does what he ended up doing last night.

You're right, but only with the benefit of hindsight. Wlad has never been one to dive in unless he's fully confident nothing is going to come back. I think he saw Joshua was hurt and clearly struggling in the 5th/6th and assumed he could just wait for the right moment to land another huge shot. In the end, the chance didn't come, Joshua recovered and the rest is history.

I think it's clear now that anyone who goes in with AJ and has him in trouble has to throw caution to the wind and go for the finish. But I can understand why Klitschko didn't.

Controversial wrote:If you are comparing them you have to do it at the same stage of their careers. After 19 fights Bruno hadn't won a domestic title or beaten any ranked HW, the gulf in opposition is night and day.

This is also a fair point. To think that Joshua has boxed for (I think) less than 10 years and in that time he's won an Olympic gold, won a world title and defended it twice (admittedly against sub-elite opposition) and KOd an ageing legend is remarkable.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

Oiky wrote:
If Joshua fights someone who will stick on him like a shark that smells blood after he gets hit then Joshua will be well and truly done for imo

Who is that exactly?

The problem here is you're talking like Joshua was exposed when in reality he was fighting against a big punching guy who finally proved why many people had been revering him so highly over the years. Not the performance of a typical 41 year old, not close. Maybe Wlad's best performance ever.

Your point seems to be that Joshua isn't allowed to have rocky moments against arguably today's best heavyweight outside of him. It doesn't make sense. Holmes getting knocked down by Shavers highlighted how amazing it was for Larry to come back and win, it didn't reasonably call into question Holmes' future ability to see out fights against punchers.

So now your prediction has been proved almost totally wrong that was the best ever Wlad?!!!!!! He's 41 and coming off a loss!

I've seen it mentioned a few times but I don't really get the notion that Joshua needs to lose weight to avoid gassing.

He dropped Wlad three times on way to an eleventh round stoppage. That alone should suggest there isn't that much wrong with his tank. He certainly looked out of it at the halfway point, but surely that was just him being hurt? He then regrouped, came back strong and finished the fight. That isn't gassing.

dirk2686 wrote:I've seen it mentioned a few times but I don't really get the notion that Joshua needs to lose weight to avoid gassing.

He dropped Wlad three times on way to an eleventh round stoppage. That alone should suggest there isn't that much wrong with his tank. He certainly looked out of it at the halfway point, but surely that was just him being hurt? He then regrouped, came back strong and finished the fight.

That isn't gassing.

Yes it is, it's gassing and then recovering which he was able to do presumably with a combination of youth, very hard training and extreme willpower

But you can't see how quickly he was blowing- end of round 4 at the earliest- and how throwing a flurry of punches left him totally spent, without knowing he does have problems in that area

Just because he recovered- after about 2 1/2 rounds inactivity- doesn't mean he didn't gas.

Just to clarify, it wasn't just that he was hurt. I noticed (and the commentary team did I think) that he was breathing heavily through his mouth after 4 rounds, before he was hurt

Counter-puncher wrote:

dirk2686 wrote:I've seen it mentioned a few times but I don't really get the notion that Joshua needs to lose weight to avoid gassing.

He dropped Wlad three times on way to an eleventh round stoppage. That alone should suggest there isn't that much wrong with his tank. He certainly looked out of it at the halfway point, but surely that was just him being hurt? He then regrouped, came back strong and finished the fight.

That isn't gassing.

Yes it is, it's gassing and then recovering which he was able to do presumably with a combination of youth, very hard training and extreme willpower

But you can't see how quickly he was blowing- end of round 4 at the earliest- and how throwing a flurry of punches left him totally spent, without knowing he does have problems in that area

Just because he recovered- after about 2 1/2 rounds inactivity- doesn't mean he didn't gas.

Just to clarify, it wasn't just that he was hurt. I noticed (and the commentary team did I think) that he was breathing heavily through his mouth after 4 rounds, before he was hurt

It begs the question of how he managed to launch an assault which stopped Wlad in the 11th if he was gasping for air after four fairly non-eventful rounds prior to being dropped heavily himself. Either his powers of recovery are absolutely incredible or he was just hurt, tired, and needed some time to recover. That happens absolutely all the time.

second wind, fighters get them all the time

Joshuas stamina is very very good for a big man. Theres no problem with it at all its what let him get back in the fight. His problem is it goes completely when hes tagged hard. Sometimes for rounds before it recovers again. Their going to struggle to fix that. Its gonna end up being his achilles heel.

the_doctor wrote:

bbjc wrote:Good shout actually. But with joshua if you hurt him you ve got to throw the kitchen sink at him because hes so dangerous in there. Let him off the leash and theres a good chance he does what he ended up doing last night.

You're right, but only with the benefit of hindsight. Wlad has never been one to dive in unless he's fully confident nothing is going to come back. I think he saw Joshua was hurt and clearly struggling in the 5th/6th and assumed he could just wait for the right moment to land another huge shot. In the end, the chance didn't come, Joshua recovered and the rest is history.

I think it's clear now that anyone who goes in with AJ and has him in trouble has to throw caution to the wind and go for the finish. But I can understand why Klitschko didn't.

Controversial wrote:If you are comparing them you have to do it at the same stage of their careers. After 19 fights Bruno hadn't won a domestic title or beaten any ranked HW, the gulf in opposition is night and day.

This is also a fair point. To think that Joshua has boxed for (I think) less than 10 years and in that time he's won an Olympic gold, won a world title and defended it twice (admittedly against sub-elite opposition) and KOd an ageing legend is remarkable.

Your right at the time klitchko made the sensible choice. 9 times out of 10 it would have been the right choice for a 41 year old man. He tried to get him out of their but was aware he had to not let his own tank go. Obviously in hindsight it was probably the wrong decision. I m not criticising klitchko for not but what i think he showed in this fight is the blueprint. If you hurt him you ve got to finish it because hes too dangerous to let off the hook. Thats your oppertunity...let it pass and it,ll come back to haunght you.

If only he would just lose a few pounds of muscle, I'd wonder if it benefit him greatly when going rounds. I mean he was using a high altitude training mask and still looked buggered in the 5th. I like AJ a lot I think he has a lot of talent, but if he's to be unbeatable, he needs to either develop a better game plan to help keep his stamina resources ticking over, or try and lose some of the stuff that's sucking the oxygen out of him.

I found all this historical reinvention of Bruno as a good, solid chinned fighter who would have a good chance against Joshua and would beat Wlad to be odd coming from such a well informed forum; probably brought on by nostalgia and softness towards the big man.

He is one of the worst holders of a heavyweight belt ever. His only good win was against Oliver McCall who although had the best chin ever, was at world level average (apart from one lucky punch against Lewis) and a professional sparring and a notorious drug addict, who seemed to be having a breakdown on the way to the ring......and McCall almost stopped him late.

Every other opponent of any quality stopped him. Even Floyd Cummings almost kod Frank and he had no wins of note. Witherspoon was a good fighter but totally out of shape, yet still kod Frank and was ahead on points at the time.

Bruno was a very well promoted, well matched fighter who was strong but pretty basic and had poor stamina and chin. Anyone claiming Bruno' s chin was better than Joshua is dreaming. Joshua took solid blows from Wlad throughout the bout.

Anyone who thinks Bruno would have any hope against Joshua is nuts. Joshua is a far, far superior fighter and would deal with Bruno comfortably.

I think it's stretching it a bit to say Witherspoon was *totally* out of shape. Totally out of shape would describe him in some of his fights but not that one, I think his performance dispels that idea, he threw a reasonable amount of punches and had the energy to close the show in the late rounds. He had a gut but he was never body beautiful anyway, fighters like Holmes or an old McCallum showed plenty of stamina with a bit of fat round their middle.

Counter-puncher wrote:I think it's stretching it a bit to say Witherspoon was *totally* out of shape. Totally out of shape would describe him in some of his fights but not that one, I think his performance dispels that idea, he threw a reasonable amount of punches and had the energy to close the show in the late rounds. He had a gut but he was never body beautiful anyway, fighters like Holmes or an old McCallum showed plenty of stamina with a bit of fat round their middle.

Totally out of shape is too strong, but Tim had had a bad build up, problems with King. If you look at the fight Tim had a decent pair of tits and puffy nipples, and his face was fat. Facially he actually looked different from any of his other fights.

Fair enough but he still had enough to throw those big power shots to get Bruno out of there in the 12th was it?

Mind you that's as much a tribute to his ring nous and how relaxed he could be in the ring as to any training he did or didn't do for the fight

mickey1975 wrote:

Riddick Blowe wrote:

Oiky wrote:
If Joshua fights someone who will stick on him like a shark that smells blood after he gets hit then Joshua will be well and truly done for imo

Who is that exactly?

The problem here is you're talking like Joshua was exposed when in reality he was fighting against a big punching guy who finally proved why many people had been revering him so highly over the years. Not the performance of a typical 41 year old, not close. Maybe Wlad's best performance ever.

Your point seems to be that Joshua isn't allowed to have rocky moments against arguably today's best heavyweight outside of him. It doesn't make sense. Holmes getting knocked down by Shavers highlighted how amazing it was for Larry to come back and win, it didn't reasonably call into question Holmes' future ability to see out fights against punchers.

So now your prediction has been proved almost totally wrong that was the best ever Wlad?!!!!!! He's 41 and coming off a loss!

Did you actually watch the fight, or just glance at the result and think HERP DERP 41 YEARS OLD SHOT FIGHTER!

Of course most fighters can't turn up and do that at his age. But he showed more variety, volume, movement and heart than ever. He was in close to his best shape ever. I don't expect anyone to be able to name a fight where he revealed more about what he could do over this one, even in winning. Because one doesn't exist. But keep trying to discredit Joshua no matter what he achieves, as I realise that's your preferred narrative

Counter-puncher wrote:Fair enough but he still had enough to throw those big power shots to get Bruno out of there in the 12th was it?

Mind you that's as much a tribute to his ring nous and how relaxed he could be in the ring as to any training he did or didn't do for the fight

It was the 11th, and yeah, even out of shape the Spoon was always a very clever fighter, relaxed and didn't expend unnecessary energy.

boxingknockout wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Fair enough but he still had enough to throw those big power shots to get Bruno out of there in the 12th was it?

Mind you that's as much a tribute to his ring nous and how relaxed he could be in the ring as to any training he did or didn't do for the fight

It was the 11th, and yeah, even out of shape the Spoon was always a very clever fighter, relaxed and didn't expend unnecessary energy.

Did you see the BN interview with him about three years ago?

Fascinating talker on boxing, saying how a lot of the old school skills he was taught aren't being taught any more, how he took Holmes's jab away from him and how he was a loss to boxing, that he didn't become a big trainer and pass all that knowledge on.