JOSHUA AGAINST FORMER CHAMPIONS

[verlichte]

It is a testament to modern training methods that athletes like Joshua... are able to take advantage of their size in this era. But they are still the exception.

Is Anthony Joshua an exceptionally big heavyweight in comparison to his peers though? I personally don’t think he is.

The current generation of heavyweight fighters (in general) are fúckíng massive in comparison to those men that competed 30+ years ago.

Here’s an extract of a post submitted a few months ago, which lists the heights and weights of the top-60 BoxRec ranked heavyweights:
• Anthony Joshua (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Luis Ortiz (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Kubrat Pulev (Height = 6'4½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Alexander Povetkin (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Charles Martin (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Joseph Parker (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Christian Hammer (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Erkan Teper (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 265lbs)
• Malik Scott (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Lucas Browne (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 265lbs)
• David Haye (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 225lbs)
• Eric Molina (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Andy Ruiz Jr (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Dominic Breazeale (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Dillian Whyte (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Dereck Chisora (Height = 6'1½"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Johann Duhaupas (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Tony Thompson (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 265lbs)
• Gerald Washington (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Adrian Granat (Height = 6'7½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Carlos Takam (Height = 6'1½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Robert Helenius (Height = 6'6½"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Trevor Bryan (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Jarrell Miller (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 290lbs)
• Andrey Fedosov (Height = 6'1"; Weight = 225lbs)
• Adam Kownacki (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Hughie Fury (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Andriy Rudenko (Height = 6'0½"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Agit Kabayel (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 235lbs)
• Andrzej Wawrzyk (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Otto Wallin (Height = 6'5½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Oscar Rivas (Height = 6'0½"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Manuel Charr (Height = 6'3½"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Bogdan Dinu (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Arnold Gjergjaj (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Izuagbe Ugonoh (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 235lbs)
• Derric Rossy (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Jun Long Zhang (Height = 6'3½"; Weight = 280lbs)
• Dillon Carman (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Edmund Gerber (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Zhilei Zhang (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Tom Schwarz (Height = 6'5½"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Odlanier Solis (Height = 6'1½"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Guillermo Jones (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Kyotaro Fujimoto (Height = 6'0"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Shannon Briggs (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Sergey Kuzmin (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Trey Lippe (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 230lbs)
• David Price (Height = 6'8"; Weight = 275lbs)
• Gary Cornish (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Travis Kauffman (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Alexander Dimitrenko (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Chris Arreola (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Eugene Hill (Height = 5'11"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Chazz Witherspoon (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 235lbs)
• Mariusz Wach (Height = 6'7½"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Eddie Chambers (Height = 6'1"; Weight = 220lbs)
• LaRon Mitchell (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Werner Kreiskott (Height = 6'1"; Weight = 235lbs)

To summarise these stats:
• 42% of fighters are taller than 6’ 4” in height
• 20% of fighters are taller than 6’ 5” in height
• 12% of fighters are taller than 6’ 6” in height
• The average weight of a top 60 heavyweight fighter is 247lbs

[Kalan]

[ Louis Liston Frazier Foreman Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback

This sounds about right. All of the fighters mentioned above may be smaller than Joshua (Klitschko excepted), but they were all quicker on their feet

I love how people just pull extremely biased statements like this out of the air... Joshua won the Super Star's Sprint Competition against other top athletes because he has extreme foot speed... He also won the entire Super Stars competition outright so he was the best athlete... When Ken Norton and Joe Frazier competed in Super Stars they both laid massive eggs and came in last place -- because they were such poor athletes and too slow..

If turtle-slow Frazier could cut the ring off on Ali and batter him on the ropes I'm sure Joshua could -- because he's got extreme physical advantages in height, weight, reach, speed, and strength over Frazier.. Smokin' Joe was dribbled like an over-sized beach ball by a moderately big, tall, and powerful Heavyweight. Smokin' was crushed like a roach.

Saying that Klitschko dazzled Joshua by dancing around him is ridiculously stupid... Joshua was leading points through 10 and had a 3-point round going in the 11th which wasn't scored.. Klitschko was knocked down 3 times, cut off and trapped on the ropes, badly battered and knocked out like all of Joshua's other opponents... Ali hit the canvas 4 times.. Frazier was knocked down at least 10 times.. Foreman was floored 4 times.. They all proved to be easier to punch in the face than Joshua and lacked AJ's ability to slip and dodge punches.. Due to their small size Joshua would have a towering advantage in size, strength, and punching power over them.

[Badhusker]

You go on about size discrepancy, but then throw in Holyfield as one that could beat Joshua? He was 6'3" and 208 when he beat Foreman, at 28 yrs old. Kind of blows that size theory out the window.

I never once said that small heavyweights were physically incapable of ever defeating the true heavyweight giants of the division. If you thought I did, then please quote my words.

That being said, I am of the opinion that Evander Holyfied had a proven track record of being capable of defeating genuine Hall-of-Fame worthy 6’ 5”+ 240lbs+ talent.

I don’t believe that any of the other small guys listed in the first post in this thread possessed such a prestigious reputation of overcoming heavyweight giants that were comparable in size to Anthony Joshua.

That is the reason why I believe that a supremely athletic prime version of Evander Holyfield would likely defeat Anthony Joshua.

If you personally feel that this opinion is wholly unreasonable, then please explain the reason why.

Also, comparing guys from the teens and twentys that could fight 25 rounds in 90 degree heat with small horsehair gloves isn't a fair comparison. I would have picked Dempsey and Johnson over Joshua if under those conditions.

There’s nothing wrong with different people having different opinions, as long as they’re both equally educated on the matter.

That being said, how much media is available to evaluate the fighting ability of Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson? How much do you truly know about these guys and the opponents they faced?

I don’t know how anyone can be supremely confident that these old-timers would be capable of defeating the likes of Anthony Joshua, when both of them would have been about five inches shorter and between 40lbs to 60lbs lighter, primarily on the basis of reading words written by authors that never saw these guys fight!

I have a lot of respect for the old-timers, but I think it’s impossible to compare them to modern day heavyweights, because none of us truly know enough about them… and it’s impossible to ascertain a decent amount of knowledge in order to draw comparisons.

I’m not necessarily accusing you of this, but there’s an awful lot of pretentious people that frequent this forum that have the sheer audacity to cite acronyms, terminology and highly-respected boxing names, without actually knowing very much about the vocabulary they’re using, in order to make themselves appear superficially smarter to others.

Says the poster boy. You are the most irritating and pathetic person on this entire site. You really should get some friends, and a job.

[verlichte]

Says the poster boy. You are the most irritating and pathetic person on this entire site. You really should get some friends, and a job.

Thank-you for your invaluable contribution to the topic being discussed in this thread.

[CaptainSpacerod]

It is a testament to modern training methods that athletes like Joshua... are able to take advantage of their size in this era. But they are still the exception.

Is Anthony Joshua an exceptionally big heavyweight in comparison to his peers though? I personally don’t think he is.

The current generation of heavyweight fighters (in general) are fúckíng massive in comparison to those men that competed 30+ years ago.

Here’s an extract of a post submitted a few months ago, which lists the heights and weights of the top-60 BoxRec ranked heavyweights:
• Anthony Joshua (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Luis Ortiz (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Kubrat Pulev (Height = 6'4½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Alexander Povetkin (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Charles Martin (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Joseph Parker (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Christian Hammer (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Erkan Teper (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 265lbs)
• Malik Scott (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Lucas Browne (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 265lbs)
• David Haye (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 225lbs)
• Eric Molina (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Andy Ruiz Jr (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Dominic Breazeale (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Dillian Whyte (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Dereck Chisora (Height = 6'1½"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Johann Duhaupas (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Tony Thompson (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 265lbs)
• Gerald Washington (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Adrian Granat (Height = 6'7½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Carlos Takam (Height = 6'1½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Robert Helenius (Height = 6'6½"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Trevor Bryan (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Jarrell Miller (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 290lbs)
• Andrey Fedosov (Height = 6'1"; Weight = 225lbs)
• Adam Kownacki (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Hughie Fury (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Andriy Rudenko (Height = 6'0½"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Agit Kabayel (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 235lbs)
• Andrzej Wawrzyk (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Otto Wallin (Height = 6'5½"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Oscar Rivas (Height = 6'0½"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Manuel Charr (Height = 6'3½"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Bogdan Dinu (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Arnold Gjergjaj (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Izuagbe Ugonoh (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 235lbs)
• Derric Rossy (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Jun Long Zhang (Height = 6'3½"; Weight = 280lbs)
• Dillon Carman (Height = 6'5"; Weight = 250lbs)
• Edmund Gerber (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Zhilei Zhang (Height = 6'6"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Tom Schwarz (Height = 6'5½"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Odlanier Solis (Height = 6'1½"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Guillermo Jones (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Kyotaro Fujimoto (Height = 6'0"; Weight = 230lbs)
• Shannon Briggs (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Sergey Kuzmin (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Trey Lippe (Height = 6'2"; Weight = 230lbs)
• David Price (Height = 6'8"; Weight = 275lbs)
• Gary Cornish (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Travis Kauffman (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 240lbs)
• Alexander Dimitrenko (Height = 6'7"; Weight = 255lbs)
• Chris Arreola (Height = 6'3"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Eugene Hill (Height = 5'11"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Chazz Witherspoon (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 235lbs)
• Mariusz Wach (Height = 6'7½"; Weight = 260lbs)
• Eddie Chambers (Height = 6'1"; Weight = 220lbs)
• LaRon Mitchell (Height = 6'4"; Weight = 245lbs)
• Werner Kreiskott (Height = 6'1"; Weight = 235lbs)

To summarise these stats:
• 42% of fighters are taller than 6’ 4” in height
• 20% of fighters are taller than 6’ 5” in height
• 12% of fighters are taller than 6’ 6” in height
• The average weight of a top 60 heavyweight fighter is 247lbs

Jesus Christ you take informal online chitchats seriously.

[verlichte]

I love how people just pull extremely biased statements like this out of the air... Joshua won the Super Star's Sprint Competition against other top athletes because he has extreme foot speed... He also won the entire Super Stars competition outright so he was the best athlete... When Ken Norton and Joe Frazier competed in Super Stars they both laid massive eggs and came in last place -- because they were such poor athletes and too slow..

In regards to Anthony Joshua appearing on Super Stars, that was five years ago, when he was 30lbs+ lighter (before he entered the professional ranks). He was 20lbs lighter than his current weight when he made his pro debut at the end of 2013.

To put 30lbs into context, it’s about four gallons of water (or 15 litres)... and that's a lot of extra weight to carry, which explains the obvious reason why his physique is a lot larger now than how he appeared in his amateur days in 2012.

It’s not fúckíng possible for a man to gain 30lbs+ in weight, onto an already bulky physique, and be as fleet-footed as he was five years ago. It is simply common sense.

[caldo2025]

I really hate how people are either getting WAY too carried away with Joshua or they are discounting his ability to a ridiculous degree.

For instance, some fans are already calling him an all time great. Too soon. The kid is just starting out. He's got ALL of the tools to be one of the greats but he has to make some good decisions or it's all for not. Most of the all time great heavyweight fighters kept developing their craft with every fight. Guys like Lennox Lewis developed a jackhammer jab as did Larry Holmes that made them untouchable. Age catches up with all of them but before it does, the are always improving. Joshua is raw and with the right guidance, he could be this generations Holyfield or Lewis.

But putting him in the ring right now with Ali in his prime or Foreman, is not fair. Let's see what the kid ends up being in his prime. He's not there yet. He just beat a 41 year old in a great fight but let's just put it into perspective.

[mullenman]

I think aj would of taken Ali's head off his shoulders

[Kalan]

I love how people just pull extremely biased statements like this out of the air... Joshua won the Super Star's Sprint Competition against other top athletes because he has extreme foot speed... He also won the entire Super Stars competition outright so he was the best athlete... When Ken Norton and Joe Frazier competed in Super Stars they both laid massive eggs and came in last place -- because they were such poor athletes and too slow..

In regards to Anthony Joshua appearing on Super Stars, that was five years ago, when he was 30lbs+ lighter (before he entered the professional ranks). He was 20lbs lighter than his current weight when he made his pro debut at the end of 2013.

To put 30lbs into context, it’s about four gallons of water (or 15 litres)... and that's a lot of extra weight to carry, which explains the obvious reason why his physique is a lot larger now than how he appeared in his amateur days in 2012.

It’s not fúckíng possible for a man to gain 30lbs+ in weight, onto an already bulky physique, and be as fleet-footed as he was five years ago. It is simply common sense.

AJ is just as fast at 250 as he was when he turned pro at 231... His sprinting speed and "fast feet" are still there 1000%... He beefed up slightly for Wladimir because he wanted more power and resistance... At least it's not a blubbery 250 like Foreman put on... George looked like a whale... But I think AJ would be better off at 245 because you want the muscle weight that's optimal for your particular bone frame.. when you put on solid muscle it's not hauling blubber around, or hauling around 5 gallons of water.. It's functional weight that makes you faster than ever.

[Kalan]

IGuys like Lennox Lewis developed a jackhammer jab as did Larry Holmes that made them untouchable

Lewis got touched up a lot... Like when he was nearly knocked out or when he was knocked clean out by McCall and Rahman... hardly untouchable.

Holmes got touched up a lot as well... By Snipes, Shavers, Tyson, Michael Spinks and other boxers... hardly untouchable.

[caldo2025]

IGuys like Lennox Lewis developed a jackhammer jab as did Larry Holmes that made them untouchable

Lewis got touched up a lot... Like when he was nearly knocked out or when he was knocked clean out by McCall and Rahman... hardly untouchable.

Holmes got touched up a lot as well... By Snipes, Shavers, Tyson, Michael Spinks and other boxers... hardly untouchable.

Larry Holmes had the second most title defenses in history so only one other boxer was untouchable longer. Lennox was kind of a head case though in his two losses. He had no business losing to those two guys and showed it in the rematches by totally demolishing them. If he stayed focused, he could have retired undefeated. It's tough though. I can't imagine how much pressure being the champ puts on you.

We are talking about 2 of the best jabbers in heavyweight championship history. Were they untouchable in their prime? Not 100% so I overstated perhaps. They sure were when they wanted to be.

[Jknight]

mate I'm laughing at these foolish posts from these other posters they are forgetting in ali s day they fought 15 rounds not 10 or 12 that's why big men like terrel, Williams,who were Joshua's height , didn't bulk up like a weightlifter like joshua because they knew they couldn't last that 15 rounds at that weight. and they were already too slow for ali and the even smaller guys, that's why super heavies didn't arrive till late 80s early 90s in other words if ali only had to go 12 rounds with joshua he would have been on his toes making himself 6ft5 jabbing Joshua's head off all night at the speed of a middleweight (prime of course)or joshua if fighting 15 rounds would have to slim down to get any where near ali just like Williams or tyrell and become an athletic 17stoner that's why there were no Joshua's , lewis , Bowes ECT and they couldn't knock Holyfield out a blown up cruiser weight and you can't tell me joshua can hit any harder than Lewis or bowe he can't even hit harder than tyson and he's 5ft11 this size thing is a laugh and I havent even talked about desire , skill, chin, please some one come back and tell I'm wrong and why. Without saying the same thing that joshua has this unparralled power the likes we've never seen before lol

[man]

what we see today is men that are 5-10 centimeter
taller (forgive me a decimal system, i come from a
civilised country), but can move like smaller men.
that is they key issue.

i do not think any heavy in history including ali would
have an easy night with joshua. to me AJ is a bigger
version of joe louis. solid technique, massive power
ring-smart.

AJ is ATG10 material in the making. but up there the
differences become really small. a prime ali could only
be defeated by a prime louis, but against a prime antony
he would still have to work for his money.

[man]

This is meant to be a conversation topic so having said that, let me say this.
Anthony Joshua having only 19 bouts at this moment in time I believe at least 6 former Champs would Stop Joshua inside 10 rounds. ( Louis Liston Frazier Foreman
Holmes and Tyson) I also find him losing decisions to
Johnson Dempsey Marciano Ali Holyfield Lewis and Vitali Klitchko. as I said earlier at this point. As Joshua gets better these results change but I welcome any feedback
and discussion.

marciano has no business in a ring
with joshua. that would not even be
a fight.

[candyslim]

I really hate how people are either getting WAY too carried away with Joshua or they are discounting his ability to a ridiculous degree.

For instance, some fans are already calling him an all time great. Too soon. The kid is just starting out. He's got ALL of the tools to be one of the greats but he has to make some good decisions or it's all for not. Most of the all time great heavyweight fighters kept developing their craft with every fight. Guys like Lennox Lewis developed a jackhammer jab as did Larry Holmes that made them untouchable. Age catches up with all of them but before it does, the are always improving. Joshua is raw and with the right guidance, he could be this generations Holyfield or Lewis.

But putting him in the ring right now with Ali in his prime or Foreman, is not fair. Let's see what the kid ends up being in his prime. He's not there yet. He just beat a 41 year old in a great fight but let's just put it into perspective.

I couldn't have put it better myself

[Jip]

He might be the best hw ever. Sure prime tyson and prime lewis would be in the conversation.

[ValMar]

I will discuss only about former champions which I remember, considering their respective prime, and supposing that Joshua is in his prime right now.
1. Ali - with his mobility, creativity, skillset and strong chin, young Ali would have 60 % chances against Joshua.
2. Frazier - the genuine warrior, but too small for Joshua, 3 % chances.
3. Foreman - absolutely unpredictible, 50 % chances.
4. Holmes - he could not do anything with his style (jab, jab, and jab again) against taller and stronger Joshua, 5% chances.
5. Tyson - same as Frazier, 3% chances
6. Holyfield - with his pressure and versatility, prime Holyfield could have about 40% chances.
7. Bowe - no more than puncher's chance - let us say about 15%.
8. Lewis - #1 HW (considering fighters active since 2000), he would likely find out the way to beat Joshua, 75% chances
9. V. Klitschko - it is difficult to outjab AJ, but Vitali's strong chin could be the important factor, about 45% chances.
10. W. Klitschko, same as Foreman, everything would be possible, 50%................

10 b. Fury - I still hope Fury will be back, and I do not want to consider him the former champion..............