BoxRec

Kalan wrote:

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote:Cooper was an amazing guy... Though he was beaten 14 times and knocked out 8 times he just kept fighting... He was often accused of ducking George Chuvalo and admitted he had no intention of fighting Sonny Liston... "Liston? Sorry mate. I'm no match for him. I get my butt beaten enough without asking for it."

There is no way on earth that Henry Cooper ever used the word "butt" unless he was referring to a barrel of water or a rifle.

Henry was pretty straight laced but used regular jargon... He wasn't some pristine choir boy who never used the word butt or spit on the sidewalk.

Kalan, can you tell us the reference source that you got that quote from? I'd like to contact them and point out how obviously flawed it is. I believe that the person who created that source simply pulled that quote out of his arse and tried to pass it off as genuine. That kind of thing just isn't on. If you tell us where you got the quote from, I can address it.

I think they ( promoters)-had originaly planned Henry Cooper to be Sonny Liston's opponent
on the Floyd Patterson vrs Tom McNeeley closed-cuiruct bout in 1961,
but Liston instead fought Albert Westphal a "Master Baker from Hamburg Germany instead

It seems to me like Wicks wanted a Liston fight; certainly he wanted Paterson more, but still, his remark suggest he thought his guy should have gotten the Liston fight instead of the German.

Counter-puncher wrote:Cooper would never have said the words 'knocked on my butt'

He may have said arse, but not butt.

Which means kalan is pulling another fabricated quote out of his 'butt'

Read my quote idiot.. He didn't say "knocked on my butt" ... He said, "I get my butt beat enough, without asking for it" ... If he said ass, butt, fanny, behind, rear end, or arse what difference does it make??? There's a hundred different words for buttocks. Henry said words to the effect that he gets his keister flogged enough without deliberately over-matching himself against Sonny Liston... That's the point, not your piquing bickering.

Kalan wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Cooper would never have said the words 'knocked on my butt'

He may have said arse, but not butt.

Which means kalan is pulling another fabricated quote out of his 'butt'

Read my quote idiot.. He didn't say "knocked on my butt" ... He said, "I get my butt beat enough, without asking for it" ... If he said ass, butt, fanny, behind, rear end, or arse what difference does it make??? There's a hundred different words for buttocks. Henry said words to the effect that he gets his keister flogged enough without deliberately over-matching himself against Sonny Liston... That's the point, not your piquing bickering.

So where did the quote come from Kalan? Can you provide a source or is it something you remember from a publication at the time?

It was a TV show when Liston was getting ready for Patterson -- asking various boxing figures and Heavyweights their impression of how Liston stacked up against other Heavyweights and his chances against Patterson. I think they asked London, Cooper, Folley, Machen, Johannson, and Williams. None of them thought Patterson would win, and all thought Liston was dangerous, but the one I can still remember is Cooper. He seemed so personable and humble.

Kalan wrote:It was a TV show when Liston was getting ready for Patterson -- asking various boxing figures and Heavyweights their impression of how Liston stacked up against other Heavyweights and his chances against Patterson. I think they asked London, Cooper, Folley, Machen, Johannson, and Williams. None of them thought Patterson would win, and all thought Liston was dangerous, but the one I can still remember is Cooper. He seemed so personable and humble.

His use of the word butt appealed to you.

Kalan wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Cooper would never have said the words 'knocked on my butt'

He may have said arse, but not butt.

Which means kalan is pulling another fabricated quote out of his 'butt'

Read my quote idiot.. He didn't say "knocked on my butt" ... He said, "I get my butt beat enough, without asking for it" ... If he said ass, butt, fanny, behind, rear end, or arse what difference does it make??? There's a hundred different words for buttocks. Henry said words to the effect that he gets his keister flogged enough without deliberately over-matching himself against Sonny Liston... That's the point, not your piquing bickering.

This may be news to you Kalan, but you are not supposed to use quotation marks unless you are directly quoting a person, accurately. If you are giving the gist of something you half remember someone saying forty years ago on TV, say so, and don't use quotation marks. Otherwise you look to everyone who understands proper use of punctuation like you are making stuff up.

For example:

Kalan wrote: Cooper was an amazing guy... Though he was beaten 14 times and knocked out 8 times he just kept fighting... He was often accused of ducking George Chuvalo and admitted he had no intention of fighting Sonny Liston... "Liston? Sorry mate. I'm no match for him. I get my butt beaten enough without asking for it."

NOT OK

KalanAsItShouldHaveBeen wrote: Cooper was an amazing guy... Though he was beaten 14 times and knocked out 8 times he just kept fighting... He was often accused of ducking George Chuvalo and admitted he had no intention of fighting Sonny Liston... he said he was no match for him, and he got his butt beaten enough without asking for it.

OK. Assuming that he said something similar, ever. I am not convinced that a heavyweight contender of that or any period would have announced so proudly that he gets beaten regularly, but there you go.

Tomasino wrote:

Kalan wrote:It was a TV show when Liston was getting ready for Patterson -- asking various boxing figures and Heavyweights their impression of how Liston stacked up against other Heavyweights and his chances against Patterson. I think they asked London, Cooper, Folley, Machen, Johannson, and Williams. None of them thought Patterson would win, and all thought Liston was dangerous, but the one I can still remember is Cooper. He seemed so personable and humble.

His use of the word butt appealed to you.

Nothing wrong with butts---except in the mind of a pervert like you... Everyone has one... You ARE one.

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Cooper would never have said the words 'knocked on my butt'

He may have said arse, but not butt.

Which means kalan is pulling another fabricated quote out of his 'butt'

Read my quote idiot.. He didn't say "knocked on my butt" ... He said, "I get my butt beat enough, without asking for it" ... If he said ass, butt, fanny, behind, rear end, or arse what difference does it make??? There's a hundred different words for buttocks. Henry said words to the effect that he gets his keister flogged enough without deliberately over-matching himself against Sonny Liston... That's the point, not your piquing bickering.

This may be news to you Kalan, but you are not supposed to use quotation marks unless you are directly quoting a person, accurately. If you are giving the gist of something you half remember someone saying forty years ago on TV, say so, and don't use quotation marks. Otherwise you look to everyone who understands proper use of punctuation like you are making stuff up.

For example:

Kalan wrote: Cooper was an amazing guy... Though he was beaten 14 times and knocked out 8 times he just kept fighting... He was often accused of ducking George Chuvalo and admitted he had no intention of fighting Sonny Liston... "Liston? Sorry mate. I'm no match for him. I get my butt beaten enough without asking for it."

NOT OK

KalanAsItShouldHaveBeen wrote: Cooper was an amazing guy... Though he was beaten 14 times and knocked out 8 times he just kept fighting... He was often accused of ducking George Chuvalo and admitted he had no intention of fighting Sonny Liston... he said he was no match for him, and he got his butt beaten enough without asking for it.

OK. Assuming that he said something similar, ever. I am not convinced that a heavyweight contender of that or any period would have announced so proudly that he gets beaten regularly, but there you go.

Getting your ass beaten 2 or 3 times is enough... After that it gets old really quick... How much ego can you have if you've lost 14 times??? I actually think there's a place for humility in sports if you're not one of the best. There's a lot of people you can beat, but you're at a level where you can't crow too much.

Kalan wrote:

gp. wrote:

Kalan wrote:
Read my quote idiot.. He didn't say "knocked on my butt" ... He said, "I get my butt beat enough, without asking for it" ... If he said ass, butt, fanny, behind, rear end, or arse what difference does it make??? There's a hundred different words for buttocks. Henry said words to the effect that he gets his keister flogged enough without deliberately over-matching himself against Sonny Liston... That's the point, not your piquing bickering.

This may be news to you Kalan, but you are not supposed to use quotation marks unless you are directly quoting a person, accurately. If you are giving the gist of something you half remember someone saying forty years ago on TV, say so, and don't use quotation marks. Otherwise you look to everyone who understands proper use of punctuation like you are making stuff up.

For example:

Kalan wrote: Cooper was an amazing guy... Though he was beaten 14 times and knocked out 8 times he just kept fighting... He was often accused of ducking George Chuvalo and admitted he had no intention of fighting Sonny Liston... "Liston? Sorry mate. I'm no match for him. I get my butt beaten enough without asking for it."

NOT OK

KalanAsItShouldHaveBeen wrote: Cooper was an amazing guy... Though he was beaten 14 times and knocked out 8 times he just kept fighting... He was often accused of ducking George Chuvalo and admitted he had no intention of fighting Sonny Liston... he said he was no match for him, and he got his butt beaten enough without asking for it.

OK. Assuming that he said something similar, ever. I am not convinced that a heavyweight contender of that or any period would have announced so proudly that he gets beaten regularly, but there you go.

Getting your ass beaten 2 or 3 times is enough... After that it gets old really quick... How much ego can you have if you've lost 14 times??? I actually think there's a place for humility in sports if you're not one of the best. There's a lot of people you can beat, but you're at a level where you can't crow too much.

I admire you too Kalan. Even though you are continually exposed as a fantasist you keep on keeping on. Don't go changing Champ!

Kalan wrote:
Getting your ass beaten 2 or 3 times is enough... After that it gets old really quick... How much ego can you have if you've lost 14 times??? I actually think there's a place for humility in sports if you're not one of the best. There's a lot of people you can beat, but you're at a level where you can't crow too much.

It's a very odd world you live in where you are defined by defeat rather than achievement.

You are supposed to lose in sports. You are supposed to rise to a level where you can win 50% of your matches because you are competing against people of your own level. Show me a "winner" and I will show you either the best of the best, or somebody who only chose to compete against those of a lower level. Now, only a tiny proportion are the best of the best. But to you a man who fought people much worse than himself and stayed unbeaten is in a better position to boast than a man who held British, European and Commonwealth titles on and off for over 14 years but lost when he fought the best.

It's all about levels. You are judged by the best wins that you have, not by the number of your losses. An unbeaten season in division six of anything is not as much of an achievement as a 50% season in division two.

gp. wrote:
It's a very odd world you live in where you are defined by defeat rather than achievement.

You are supposed to lose in sports. You are supposed to rise to a level where you can win 50% of your matches because you are competing against people of your own level. Show me a "winner" and I will show you either the best of the best, or somebody who only chose to compete against those of a lower level. Now, only a tiny proportion are the best of the best. But to you a man who fought people much worse than himself and stayed unbeaten is in a better position to boast than a man who held British, European and Commonwealth titles on and off for over 14 years but lost when he fought the best.

It's all about levels. You are judged by the best wins that you have, not by the number of your losses. An unbeaten season in division six of anything is not as much of an achievement as a 50% season in division two.

Yes I agree. Very few ATG fighters retire undefeated or with one or two defeats. Boxing is unlike any other sport when it comes to fighters being criticised or ridiculed for losing. For the world number one to lose in other sports its generally not even discussed unless its a huge upset. Think of the greatest tennis player, snooker player, F1 driver or may other sports the number ones lose all the time. Roger Federer is arguably the greatest tennis player in history and has lost 200-300 times in his career, several times to unseeded players.

Sven Ottke retired undefeated (34-0) and made numerous title defences, that doesn't make him an ATG fighter, just a very lucky and carefully managed fighter. Yet Charley Burley who lost 12 times is an ATG fighter and he never even fought of a title.

You can't compare Henry Cooper with Charley Burley... Burley had more than twice as many wins and fewer losses... Burley was an ATG in anybody's book

Cooper was knocked out 8 times of course... 4 times for the count -- while Burley was never stopped because he was a master boxer.

I admired Cooper as a person... He tried real hard and did his job the best he could with what talent he had -- and never bitched about the result when he lost.

Kalan wrote:You can't compare Henry Cooper with Charley Burley... Burley had more than twice as many wins and fewer losses... Burley was an ATG in anybody's book

Cooper was knocked out 8 times of course... 4 times for the count -- while Burley was never stopped because he was a master boxer.

I admired Cooper as a person... He tried real hard and did his job the best he could with what talent he had -- and never bitched about the result when he lost.

Except when Bugner got the nod against him in his last fight. Henry was angry about that decision for the rest of his life.

Kalan wrote:You can't compare Henry Cooper with Charley Burley... Burley had more than twice as many wins and fewer losses... Burley was an ATG in anybody's book

Cooper was knocked out 8 times of course... 4 times for the count -- while Burley was never stopped because he was a master boxer.

I admired Cooper as a person... He tried real hard and did his job the best he could with what talent he had -- and never bitched about the result when he lost.

I wasn't comparing Burley to Cooper, I was referencing Burley in relation to Sven Ottke. Ottke was undefeated and made numerous title defences but wasn't an ATG yet Burley lost almost as many times as Cooper but was an ATG.

I carried out a lot of research into Cooper's career for the book I published last year - Henry Cooper: Cut Eyes and Left Hooks.
But with hindsight an issue has become clear to me and that is that although Muhammad Ali was a superb boxer, he most certainly was not as devastating a puncher as either, Johansson, Folley or Patterson. I believe Cooper knew this.
Henry was caught by huge right handers by Johansson and Folley, and to be honest there were clear signs that during those 3 fights he showed some apprehension when launching attacks.
With his fights with Clay/ Ali he had no such concerns. In both of his efforts against him, he was very much in the fights until the cuts brought and end. When he moved in against Clay/ Ali he attacked with authority. He didn't do that against Johansson or Folley.
The Patterson fight is the unusual one. Cooper attacked Patterson without any apparent apprehension , and of course he paid the penalty , getting knocked cold. Why did he underestimate Patterson's power? Perhaps he was led to believe Floyd was over the hill and was coming to London for the money.

Patterson absolutely knew he could beat Cooper... Floyd knew Johannson had knocked Cooper out and basicly mopped the floor with him.. He looked at Cooper's record and he didn't have any concerns about facing him.. Patterson was no dummy as some people make him out to be. He was very smart.

When Johannson knocked him out he was very surprised by his tricky right.. Ingo could throw the right on a dime and Eddie Machen was fooled by it.. Patterson fought a little squared up like Tyson.. He was vulnerable to getting hit with straight shots between the guard and Rademacher thought he would beat Patterson based on this observation as well.. For the rematch Patterson focused on beating Ingo's right with the left hook. It worked very well in the rubber match too

All Cooper had was the hook.. Patterson had a very quick straight right. Cooper was easily beaten to the punch and knocked out.. Floyd pretty much knew that of anyone on the world level, Cooper was going to be his meat, because Cooper wasn't very big or strong, and Floyd knew how to beat the hook.

dalcumly wrote:I carried out a lot of research into Cooper's career for the book I published last year - Henry Cooper: Cut Eyes and Left Hooks.
But with hindsight an issue has become clear to me and that is that although Muhammad Ali was a superb boxer, he most certainly was not as devastating a puncher as either, Johansson, Folley or Patterson. I believe Cooper knew this.
Henry was caught by huge right handers by Johansson and Folley, and to be honest there were clear signs that during those 3 fights he showed some apprehension when launching attacks.
With his fights with Clay/ Ali he had no such concerns. In both of his efforts against him, he was very much in the fights until the cuts brought and end. When he moved in against Clay/ Ali he attacked with authority. He didn't do that against Johansson or Folley.
The Patterson fight is the unusual one. Cooper attacked Patterson without any apparent apprehension , and of course he paid the penalty , getting knocked cold. Why did he underestimate Patterson's power? Perhaps he was led to believe Floyd was over the hill and was coming to London for the money.

I remember reading that both Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali telling the press that they had picked Henry Cooper to win gowing into that fight.
Maybe that was what gave him the confideince.

Caractacus wrote:

dalcumly wrote:I carried out a lot of research into Cooper's career for the book I published last year - Henry Cooper: Cut Eyes and Left Hooks.
But with hindsight an issue has become clear to me and that is that although Muhammad Ali was a superb boxer, he most certainly was not as devastating a puncher as either, Johansson, Folley or Patterson. I believe Cooper knew this.
Henry was caught by huge right handers by Johansson and Folley, and to be honest there were clear signs that during those 3 fights he showed some apprehension when launching attacks.
With his fights with Clay/ Ali he had no such concerns. In both of his efforts against him, he was very much in the fights until the cuts brought and end. When he moved in against Clay/ Ali he attacked with authority. He didn't do that against Johansson or Folley.
The Patterson fight is the unusual one. Cooper attacked Patterson without any apparent apprehension , and of course he paid the penalty , getting knocked cold. Why did he underestimate Patterson's power? Perhaps he was led to believe Floyd was over the hill and was coming to London for the money.

I remember reading that both Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali telling the press that they had picked Henry Cooper to win gowing into that fight.
Maybe that was what gave him the confideince.

Barbarian,

I am of the mind that Patterson could knock out anyone (including Liston) with his left hook, it was just that he had this 'dimple in his chin' where sometimes he couldn't last long enough to get in his punches (e.g. Johannson I, Liston I and II).

The first Cooper KD was a classic Patterson left hook - I couldn't see if the KO blow was a left or right - terrible camera angle.

P.S. I can't find shit on the crowd size at Johnson-Willard; everyone just wants to talk about the presence of the army, but not the crowd. Guess that was the 'news' of the day.