Virgil Hunter= The MOST OVERRATED Trainer ever

[ClivePatrickLyons]

For years, Virgil Hunter has been anointed as a top trainer in Boxing. Perhaps just a notch below Roach and Garcia and for years i've been wondering why though. We are constantly seeing him throwing the towels in on his fighters and bringing fighters into big fights unprepared. Almost more ridiculous than calling out Canelo to fight GGG after his fighter Amir Khan just got KTFO by him was his incredulous advice to Fonfara this weekend to NOT throw any punches against Adonis after getting hurt in the previous round. Then Hunter has the balls to throw in the towel after his fighter does exactly that.

Sure Hunter deserves credit for Andre Ward but he also deserves the credit for the horrible performances by all of his other fighters under his thumb. We saw what happened when Abner Mares left Hunter for Robert Garcia, a world title. Berto, Angulo, Khan have all been punching bags with Hunter standing in their corner for years. But to advise a fighter to NOT throw a punch in a round and then throw the towel in the ring is one of the most ridiculous things i've ever witnessed from a trainer in this sport.

Am i wrong? Has there been worse advice from a trainer than this?

The most overrated trainer in Boxing HIstory was Angleo Dundee... He could charm the skin off a snake -- but his depth of knowledge was ridiculously poor.

You are at it again Kalan if Dundee wasn't in Sugar Ray Leonard corner against Hagler he would have lost he was a master trainer quite afew time's he got Ali off his stool with some word's of wisdom to win the fight that was very much in the balance you see Kalan its the word's and the passion that those word's are spoken with that define a top trainer not JUST his knowledge of the fight game and tactic's of his opponent and what the game plan will be you need really educating Kalan on this subject ASAP youtube mate should be your best friend for the next few year's so long champ see you then.

[caldo2025]

A lot of fighters just don't listen to their corner mid fight. I remember many times watching Floyd stare into the distance while Sr blathered on.
I was surprised at Fonfara moving straight into Aduckis's left hand like he was programmed to eat southpaw power lunches all day. Fundamental stuff!
Mad advice at the end of round one, and I agree with letting Fonfara stand for a while to get blood into his legs.
Fonfara's performance was absmal and his trainer should take at least some responsibility.

I agree man. Most fighters do not listen to their corners after the first few rounds but Fanfara left his team in Chicago because he believed that he was a big time fighter. So he went with a big time trainer supposedly and i'm sure that he listened intently to everything that Hunter said. It's pretty sad how some fighters think that ditching the team that got them there would take them to the next level. it doesn't work much like that.

But i do always think to myself watching these fights, this fighter is dead tired and this trainer just gave the fighter a thousand things to do in 30 seconds in between rounds like a damn auctioneer. What happens if they just kept tired and let the fighter breath? Sure there's a time for pushing the fighter and drastic measures but man, that's annoying to hear all the bs in between rounds.

[Ossyrules]

He's clearly not the most overrated ever. It's fair to say apart from ward, other boxers aren't performing to the level you'd expect

[Mexi-Box]

A lot of fighters just don't listen to their corner mid fight. I remember many times watching Floyd stare into the distance while Sr blathered on.
I was surprised at Fonfara moving straight into Aduckis's left hand like he was programmed to eat southpaw power lunches all day. Fundamental stuff!
Mad advice at the end of round one, and I agree with letting Fonfara stand for a while to get blood into his legs.
Fonfara's performance was absmal and his trainer should take at least some responsibility.

I agree man. Most fighters do not listen to their corners after the first few rounds but Fanfara left his team in Chicago because he believed that he was a big time fighter. So he went with a big time trainer supposedly and i'm sure that he listened intently to everything that Hunter said. It's pretty sad how some fighters think that ditching the team that got them there would take them to the next level. it doesn't work much like that.

But i do always think to myself watching these fights, this fighter is dead tired and this trainer just gave the fighter a thousand things to do in 30 seconds in between rounds like a damn auctioneer. What happens if they just kept tired and let the fighter breath? Sure there's a time for pushing the fighter and drastic measures but man, that's annoying to hear all the bs in between rounds.

It didn't work well for Shumenov who used to not have a trainer and would mediate in the corner after rounds. He looks a lot better with a trainer now.

[boxing_rocks]

A lot of fighters just don't listen to their corner mid fight. I remember many times watching Floyd stare into the distance while Sr blathered on.
I was surprised at Fonfara moving straight into Aduckis's left hand like he was programmed to eat southpaw power lunches all day. Fundamental stuff!
Mad advice at the end of round one, and I agree with letting Fonfara stand for a while to get blood into his legs.
Fonfara's performance was absmal and his trainer should take at least some responsibility.

I agree man. Most fighters do not listen to their corners after the first few rounds but Fanfara left his team in Chicago because he believed that he was a big time fighter. So he went with a big time trainer supposedly and i'm sure that he listened intently to everything that Hunter said. It's pretty sad how some fighters think that ditching the team that got them there would take them to the next level. it doesn't work much like that.

But i do always think to myself watching these fights, this fighter is dead tired and this trainer just gave the fighter a thousand things to do in 30 seconds in between rounds like a damn auctioneer. What happens if they just kept tired and let the fighter breath? Sure there's a time for pushing the fighter and drastic measures but man, that's annoying to hear all the bs in between rounds.

It didn't work well for Shumenov who used to not have a trainer and would mediate in the corner after rounds. He looks a lot better with a trainer now.

Do you mean NOT THAT BAD. A word "better" doesn't fit Shumenov.

[montrealsuper]

Emanuel Steward's genius, knowledge and pinpoint accuracy of tactical guidance makes Hunter and Banks all most of these current "trainers" look like clowns. The sport is full of a lot of clowns and pretenders and absurd hoaxes these days. Very few special talents (Rigondeaux Golovkin Kovalev Joshua Klitschko Spence Crawford Usyk etc)

[JMac]

After the terrible USA showing in the '08 Olympics, USA Boxing brought in a bunch of coaches who were considered top US coaches to talk about what went wrong and how to improve going forward. I was there and got into it with Hunter when he said USA should not put our top boxers in with the worlds best. I was like "What"? He said he did that with Ward and did not let him fight the Russians, Cubans, etc before the '04 Olympics because he did not want them to know what Ward could do. I told him he got lucky because Ward is a great boxer but that is terrible advice and that the Russians, Cubans, Brits, Irish, Ukrainians, and every other good boxing nation go to as many international tournaments as possible since many countries have different styles and boxers needed to box in tournaments that last 7-10 days long to get used to it. At the time, the US boxers were the only country that did not adapt their boxing style to the scoring system and therefor were not winning medals. Granted it was a horrible scoring system that made amateur boxing horrible to watch and thank goodness it was changed but at the time if that was the scoring system used, we needed to adjust if we wanted to win medals. Anyway, Hunter was clueless and arrogant and what I witnessed this past weekend validated my thoughts on him.

[Tanzio]

After the terrible USA showing in the '08 Olympics, USA Boxing brought in a bunch of coaches who were considered top US coaches to talk about what went wrong and how to improve going forward. I was there and got into it with Hunter when he said USA should not put our top boxers in with the worlds best. I was like "What"? He said he did that with Ward and did not let him fight the Russians, Cubans, etc before the '04 Olympics because he did not want them to know what Ward could do. I told him he got lucky because Ward is a great boxer but that is terrible advice and that the Russians, Cubans, Brits, Irish, Ukrainians, and every other good boxing nation go to as many international tournaments as possible since many countries have different styles and boxers needed to box in tournaments that last 7-10 days long to get used to it. At the time, the US boxers were the only country that did not adapt their boxing style to the scoring system and therefor were not winning medals. Granted it was a horrible scoring system that made amateur boxing horrible to watch and thank goodness it was changed but at the time if that was the scoring system used, we needed to adjust if we wanted to win medals. Anyway, Hunter was clueless and arrogant and what I witnessed this past weekend validated my thoughts on him.

Thanks for the insight.

[Mexi-Box]

I agree man. Most fighters do not listen to their corners after the first few rounds but Fanfara left his team in Chicago because he believed that he was a big time fighter. So he went with a big time trainer supposedly and i'm sure that he listened intently to everything that Hunter said. It's pretty sad how some fighters think that ditching the team that got them there would take them to the next level. it doesn't work much like that.

But i do always think to myself watching these fights, this fighter is dead tired and this trainer just gave the fighter a thousand things to do in 30 seconds in between rounds like a damn auctioneer. What happens if they just kept tired and let the fighter breath? Sure there's a time for pushing the fighter and drastic measures but man, that's annoying to hear all the bs in between rounds.

It didn't work well for Shumenov who used to not have a trainer and would mediate in the corner after rounds. He looks a lot better with a trainer now.

Do you mean NOT THAT BAD. A word "better" doesn't fit Shumenov.

No, it fits here. Stop being a drama queen.

[Taansend]

A lot of trainers reputations have been built on the back of one or two decent fighters.

It's the bread and butter trainers that teach the fundamentals who reserve respect.

Anthony Joshua recently visited his first trainer to give him a top level car. And promised more. Sean Murphy was an exciting fighter himself back in the day. I'm well chuffed he stayed in the game

[boxing_rocks]

After the terrible USA showing in the '08 Olympics, USA Boxing brought in a bunch of coaches who were considered top US coaches to talk about what went wrong and how to improve going forward. I was there and got into it with Hunter when he said USA should not put our top boxers in with the worlds best. I was like "What"? He said he did that with Ward and did not let him fight the Russians, Cubans, etc before the '04 Olympics because he did not want them to know what Ward could do. I told him he got lucky because Ward is a great boxer but that is terrible advice and that the Russians, Cubans, Brits, Irish, Ukrainians, and every other good boxing nation go to as many international tournaments as possible since many countries have different styles and boxers needed to box in tournaments that last 7-10 days long to get used to it. At the time, the US boxers were the only country that did not adapt their boxing style to the scoring system and therefor were not winning medals. Granted it was a horrible scoring system that made amateur boxing horrible to watch and thank goodness it was changed but at the time if that was the scoring system used, we needed to adjust if we wanted to win medals. Anyway, Hunter was clueless and arrogant and what I witnessed this past weekend validated my thoughts on him.

Why aren't you posting more often?

[Badhusker]

Personally I think Roach is the most over-rated. Hunter is a top notch trainer imo.

[Jip]

What you say makes sense.

[crusader]

Personally I think Roach is the most over-rated. Hunter is a top notch trainer imo.

What makes Hunter top-notch and Roach the most overrated?

[KiwiRider]

I don't know if Roach is overrated so much as over extended. He has too many fighters and not enough Freddy to go around. Apart from Manny, I think his minion ( I forget his name) does a lot of the day in day out stuff.

[caldo2025]

After the terrible USA showing in the '08 Olympics, USA Boxing brought in a bunch of coaches who were considered top US coaches to talk about what went wrong and how to improve going forward. I was there and got into it with Hunter when he said USA should not put our top boxers in with the worlds best. I was like "What"? He said he did that with Ward and did not let him fight the Russians, Cubans, etc before the '04 Olympics because he did not want them to know what Ward could do. I told him he got lucky because Ward is a great boxer but that is terrible advice and that the Russians, Cubans, Brits, Irish, Ukrainians, and every other good boxing nation go to as many international tournaments as possible since many countries have different styles and boxers needed to box in tournaments that last 7-10 days long to get used to it. At the time, the US boxers were the only country that did not adapt their boxing style to the scoring system and therefor were not winning medals. Granted it was a horrible scoring system that made amateur boxing horrible to watch and thank goodness it was changed but at the time if that was the scoring system used, we needed to adjust if we wanted to win medals. Anyway, Hunter was clueless and arrogant and what I witnessed this past weekend validated my thoughts on him.

Awesome post.

[caldo2025]

Personally I think Roach is the most over-rated. Hunter is a top notch trainer imo.

What makes Hunter top-notch and Roach the most overrated?

I guess that it all comes down to how much of a boxer's success is attributed to god given talent of the boxer compared to the trainer's ability to get the fighter ready.

I'm a believer in that it all comes down to fighter ability. Floyd Mayweather Jr was going to be the top P4P boxer without a trainer. Andre Ward was going to be a world champion regardless. Manny Pacquaio was going to be win multiple division world titles regardless of Roach.

But conversely, Andy Lee was never going to win a world title without Stewart. Same with Adonis Stevenson. Without Stewart's leadership, Adonis would not be a top boxer.

So i think that trainer's worth is more apparent in those midrange pro fighters that shouldn't become world champions based on their talent level but end up getting it done. I know Stewart had passed before both Adonis and Lee had their success but both were told by Stewart that they could be world champs and leaned on the advice from Stewart to get it done. That's a trainer to me.

[Kalan]

Spinks was a past-prime defeat. Do you not know how past-prime defeats work? Ali DID fight Holmes. WTF.
-Ali's lack of defensive skills? WTF are you talking about? He was a defensive wizard.

Ali was a massive favorite to beat tyro Spinks, who was 6-0-1... Ali was only 36... Wladimir crushed Pulev (not as big an underdog) when he was 38.

Holmes was the best Heavyweight in the world when Ali fought Spinks.. Ali pretended Holmes didn't exist and cherry-picked.. Spinks was stripped of the title and Larry won the title outright by beating Norton.. Ali continued to ignore Holmes and fought Spinks again and retired.. He only fought Holmes 2 years later when he was dead broke.. Everybody and his mama knew Ali had no chance v Holmes when Ali was 38.. Ali only did it for the money when he had no title to lose.

Ali is the first defensive wizard I've ever seen who got beaten upside the head so much... Dumped by left hooks from Banks, Cooper, and Frazier in his 20's.. His jaw shattered by blooping swinger Ken Norton.. Frazier finds a home on Ali's jaw for left hooks.. Ali laid on the ropes getting hit too much.. If you have masterful skills like a Mayweather, Tunney, Holmes, Pep, Johnson, Sanchez, Loma etc. you might take one of the other punch.. Not a steady stream of them.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Personally I think Roach is the most over-rated. Hunter is a top notch trainer imo.

What makes Hunter top-notch and Roach the most overrated?

I guess that it all comes down to how much of a boxer's success is attributed to god given talent of the boxer compared to the trainer's ability to get the fighter ready.

I'm a believer in that it all comes down to fighter ability. Floyd Mayweather Jr was going to be the top P4P boxer without a trainer. Andre Ward was going to be a world champion regardless. Manny Pacquaio was going to be win multiple division world titles regardless of Roach.

But conversely, Andy Lee was never going to win a world title without Stewart. Same with Adonis Stevenson. Without Stewart's leadership, Adonis would not be a top boxer.

So i think that trainer's worth is more apparent in those midrange pro fighters that shouldn't become world champions based on their talent level but end up getting it done. I know Stewart had passed before both Adonis and Lee had their success but both were told by Stewart that they could be world champs and leaned on the advice from Stewart to get it done. That's a trainer to me.

Steward, that drives me nuts for some reason. The whole idea of trainer switches and their value for top professionals is overrated. It's more motivational at that point. You need to go to their original trainers for the teaching. So much of boxing is muscle memory, you're not going to change what a guy has been doing for 15-20 years in 6 months not matter what your name is. That being said, Blackburn, futch and Benton are the 3 best imo. Manny is right there too. All far superior to hunter or roach.

[caldo2025]

What makes Hunter top-notch and Roach the most overrated?

I guess that it all comes down to how much of a boxer's success is attributed to god given talent of the boxer compared to the trainer's ability to get the fighter ready.

I'm a believer in that it all comes down to fighter ability. Floyd Mayweather Jr was going to be the top P4P boxer without a trainer. Andre Ward was going to be a world champion regardless. Manny Pacquaio was going to be win multiple division world titles regardless of Roach.

But conversely, Andy Lee was never going to win a world title without Stewart. Same with Adonis Stevenson. Without Stewart's leadership, Adonis would not be a top boxer.

So i think that trainer's worth is more apparent in those midrange pro fighters that shouldn't become world champions based on their talent level but end up getting it done. I know Stewart had passed before both Adonis and Lee had their success but both were told by Stewart that they could be world champs and leaned on the advice from Stewart to get it done. That's a trainer to me.

Steward, that drives me nuts for some reason. The whole idea of trainer switches and their value for top professionals is overrated. It's more motivational at that point. You need to go to their original trainers for the teaching. So much of boxing is muscle memory, you're not going to change what a guy has been doing for 15-20 years in 6 months not matter what your name is. That being said, Blackburn, futch and Benton are the 3 best imo. Manny is right there too. All far superior to hunter or roach.

I completely agree with you. These boxers don't even listen to these trainers in the corner most of the time. Have you ever noticed that? I just rewatched Brook/Spence and Spence's trainer was just rattling off a bunch of nonsense and Spence wasn't even paying attention to the guy. The trainer said "you hear what i'm saying" and he just nodded. I especially love when these dopes start telling the fighter to throw specific combinations "Throw the 3, 5 and 7 this round". How they heck can you call out a combo without knowing what the other boxer is doing. So dumb.

I'd love to see a trainer just talk to the boxer about dinner after the fight or point out a smoking chick at ringside in between rounds. It would be amusing and info that is just as useful.

[Kalan]

What makes Hunter top-notch and Roach the most overrated?

I guess that it all comes down to how much of a boxer's success is attributed to god given talent of the boxer compared to the trainer's ability to get the fighter ready.

I'm a believer in that it all comes down to fighter ability. Floyd Mayweather Jr was going to be the top P4P boxer without a trainer. Andre Ward was going to be a world champion regardless. Manny Pacquaio was going to be win multiple division world titles regardless of Roach.

But conversely, Andy Lee was never going to win a world title without Stewart. Same with Adonis Stevenson. Without Stewart's leadership, Adonis would not be a top boxer.

So i think that trainer's worth is more apparent in those midrange pro fighters that shouldn't become world champions based on their talent level but end up getting it done. I know Stewart had passed before both Adonis and Lee had their success but both were told by Stewart that they could be world champs and leaned on the advice from Stewart to get it done. That's a trainer to me.

Steward, that drives me nuts for some reason. The whole idea of trainer switches and their value for top professionals is overrated. It's more motivational at that point. You need to go to their original trainers for the teaching. So much of boxing is muscle memory, you're not going to change what a guy has been doing for 15-20 years in 6 months not matter what your name is. That being said, Blackburn, futch and Benton are the 3 best imo. Manny is right there too. All far superior to hunter or roach.

Muscle memory isn't locked in concrete.. Flaws are ironed out through hours, days, weeks, and months of grueling practice.. A boxer has to concentrate like crazy until he sheds the bad habit and internalizes the correct form, movement, and technique.. He has to be able to do it in his sleep.. Steward couldn't do anything with Nazim Hamed because he didn't have the determination to change.. You’re not going to change anything with someone like Ken Norton.. Getting knocked out doesn't necessarily light a fire under most boxers.. If you accept defeat you will never rule your division. Wladimir Klitschko would move mountains to be a winner so he was a trainer's dream. Right now his trainer sucks. But Steward and Wlad were a perfect match because they both wanted perfection.

The preferred thing is to have perfect form from day one.. Have that super knowledgeable trainer from the get go.. It takes twice as long to unlearn bad habits and flaws and replace them with correct instincts and form.. Few boxers have that wondrous trainer from age 3 like Floyd.. That’s where the concept of “style” comes in. “We’re not going to change his style, just tweak a few things here and there.” Right, because even revamping a jab is like pulling teeth.

[boxing_rocks]

I bet a good youth trainer could still teach Ward how to punch correctly and greatly increase his power.

[caldo2025]

I guess that it all comes down to how much of a boxer's success is attributed to god given talent of the boxer compared to the trainer's ability to get the fighter ready.

I'm a believer in that it all comes down to fighter ability. Floyd Mayweather Jr was going to be the top P4P boxer without a trainer. Andre Ward was going to be a world champion regardless. Manny Pacquaio was going to be win multiple division world titles regardless of Roach.

But conversely, Andy Lee was never going to win a world title without Stewart. Same with Adonis Stevenson. Without Stewart's leadership, Adonis would not be a top boxer.

So i think that trainer's worth is more apparent in those midrange pro fighters that shouldn't become world champions based on their talent level but end up getting it done. I know Stewart had passed before both Adonis and Lee had their success but both were told by Stewart that they could be world champs and leaned on the advice from Stewart to get it done. That's a trainer to me.

Steward, that drives me nuts for some reason. The whole idea of trainer switches and their value for top professionals is overrated. It's more motivational at that point. You need to go to their original trainers for the teaching. So much of boxing is muscle memory, you're not going to change what a guy has been doing for 15-20 years in 6 months not matter what your name is. That being said, Blackburn, futch and Benton are the 3 best imo. Manny is right there too. All far superior to hunter or roach.

Muscle memory isn't locked in concrete.. Flaws are ironed out through hours, days, weeks, and months of grueling practice.. A boxer has to concentrate like crazy until he sheds the bad habit and internalizes the correct form, movement, and technique.. He has to be able to do it in his sleep.. Steward couldn't do anything with Nazim Hamed because he didn't have the determination to change.. You’re not going to change anything with someone like Ken Norton.. Getting knocked out doesn't necessarily light a fire under most boxers.. If you accept defeat you will never rule your division. Wladimir Klitschko would move mountains to be a winner so he was a trainer's dream. Right now his trainer sucks. But Steward and Wlad were a perfect match because they both wanted perfection.

The preferred thing is to have perfect form from day one.. Have that super knowledgeable trainer from the get go.. It takes twice as long to unlearn bad habits and flaws and replace them with correct instincts and form.. Few boxers have that wondrous trainer from age 3 like Floyd.. That’s where the concept of “style” comes in. “We’re not going to change his style, just tweak a few things here and there.” Right, because even revamping a jab is like pulling teeth.

All excellent points and a great post all around honestly. But I still feel that an excellent trainer is more important to the mid range professional boxer along with the young boxers coming up. The boxers in the top 10 P4P list aren't learning from these trainers IMO. They are there to keep them motivated, deflect attention from the boxer and to create a stable camp environment free of drama. You never hear about a strategy or gameplay in a high level fight between two stars of the sport by someone's trainer that won that boxer the fight. It just doesn't happen. Honestly, i'd say 95% of the game plans created in camp by most trainers are thrown out after round 3.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You can always learn something, it's just overblown how much a change like Bradley made is. Especially since Teddy is a buffoon.

[Kalan]

Honestly, i'd say 95% of the game plans created in camp by most trainers are thrown out after round 3.

No. Actually bout 40% of plan A's work... About 9% of plan B's work... But if you need plan C or D, there's a sharply diminishing return on positive results.

If you're Anthony Joshua's coaching team 100% of your plan A's worked to date -- because I'm quite sure the last plan included the possibility of getting hurt... However they might have included the possibility of getting hurt under "plan B" you don't know for sure because you're not doing the game plans.. Anytime you move to plan B the ship is already taking on water and you're probably going to lose... You need a mini miracle.