BoxRec

Tony1244 wrote:

Taansend wrote:I remember working with some kid in London (over 20 years ago) who was adamant that the George Foreman Michael Moorer fight was fixed & Moorer took a dive for money.

He said he had 'proof' as he'd read it in a magazine. That was the proof. A magazine article

I've wondered about that myself. It probably wasn't but who knows?

Moorer was up for a fight with Tyson if he won (sooner or later). Or fights against Lewis & Bowe, or even a defence against Holmes who was still semi relevent after his spirited showing against Holyfield a couple of years earlier. How much would he have been paid to dive?

Taansend wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

Taansend wrote:I remember working with some kid in London (over 20 years ago) who was adamant that the George Foreman Michael Moorer fight was fixed & Moorer took a dive for money.

He said he had 'proof' as he'd read it in a magazine. That was the proof. A magazine article

I've wondered about that myself. It probably wasn't but who knows?

Moorer was up for a fight with Tyson if he won (sooner or later). Or fights against Lewis & Bowe, or even a defence against Holmes who was still semi relevent after his spirited showing against Holyfield a couple of years earlier. How much would he have been paid to dive?

A Helleva lot. I don't think Foreman-Moorer was fixed, but Foreman in his comeback rarely knocked a guy out with 1 shot like that. The possibility that it was did enter my mind.

Tony1244 wrote:

Taansend wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

I've wondered about that myself. It probably wasn't but who knows?

Moorer was up for a fight with Tyson if he won (sooner or later). Or fights against Lewis & Bowe, or even a defence against Holmes who was still semi relevent after his spirited showing against Holyfield a couple of years earlier. How much would he have been paid to dive?

A Helleva lot. I don't think Foreman-Moorer was fixed, but Foreman in his comeback rarely knocked a guy out with 1 shot like that. The possibility that it was did enter my mind.

Nah that wasn't fixed but Foreman made sure his opponents on his comeback trail stood no chance. Pretty much guaranteeing a win, sort of like fixing a fight I guess.

Controversial wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

Taansend wrote:
Moorer was up for a fight with Tyson if he won (sooner or later). Or fights against Lewis & Bowe, or even a defence against Holmes who was still semi relevent after his spirited showing against Holyfield a couple of years earlier. How much would he have been paid to dive?

A Helleva lot. I don't think Foreman-Moorer was fixed, but Foreman in his comeback rarely knocked a guy out with 1 shot like that. The possibility that it was did enter my mind.

Nah that wasn't fixed but Foreman made sure his opponents on his comeback trail stood no chance. Pretty much guaranteeing a win, sort of like fixing a fight I guess.

To be fair his 2nd career was just a lot like many fighters careers around that time. Just fighting no hopers until they got a ranking.

How come no one has mentioned Mark Gastineau?

APerno wrote:How come no one has mentioned Mark Gastineau?

Probably because his fights were so low down on the scale. Boxrec likely wouldn't have ranked any of his fights even a 1 star.

Tony1244 wrote:

APerno wrote:How come no one has mentioned Mark Gastineau?

Probably because his fights were so low down on the scale. Boxrec likely wouldn't have ranked any of his fights even a 1 star.

Made me look - three one star fights - two fights identified as possible dives and a third guy may have been poisoned.

Gastineau is a prime example of why I think we need two different terms, one for fights that are arranged for betting purposes (fixed) and other fights that are 'staged' to create a false record for a weak fighter. I suspect Gastineau's fights were staged fights, with there being little gambling interest.

I did read once that Foreman (claimed he) approached Gastineau's people and told them if Gastineau could build enough of a record (public interest) he would give him a big money fight. This maybe what motivated Gastineau's people to forgo actually teaching their guy to fight and try to create just enough of a (false) record to get the (one big money) Foreman fight.

APerno wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

APerno wrote:How come no one has mentioned Mark Gastineau?

Probably because his fights were so low down on the scale. Boxrec likely wouldn't have ranked any of his fights even a 1 star.

Made me look - three one star fights - two fights identified as possible dives and a third guy may have been poisoned.

Gastineau is a prime example of why I think we need two different terms, one for fights that are arranged for betting purposes (fixed) and other fights that are 'staged' to create a false record for a weak fighter. I suspect Gastineau's fights were staged fights, with there being little gambling interest.

I did read once that Foreman (claimed he) approached Gastineau's people and told them if Gastineau could build enough of a record (public interest) he would give him a big money fight. This maybe what motivated Gastineau's people to forgo actually teaching their guy to fight and try to create just enough of a (false) record to get the (one big money) Foreman fight.

While Foreman's comeback exceeded expectations, there was a lot about it I didn't like. I would have preferred GF was chasing the ghosts of Ron Lyle and Jimmy Young, who both would have fought rematches with Foreman in the late 1980s.

Gans--McGovern

Kalan wrote:

handsofstone wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:There are people here who I usually agree with who say Wilder-Scott was fixed. i don't think it was, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.

More likely that Scott's arse went

It’s almost certain that Dempsey threw his 1st fight with Fireman Flynn. There was a lot of unusual betting activity and Dempsey—who was never knocked out in his life except by Flynn—dumped the fight seconds after the opening bell.. If you’re going to throw a fight, why not do it ASAP like Dempsey – before your opponent can trip over his own feet and blow a knee out?

You obviously know nothing about this fight, or boxing in general.

Wait a minute? You mean we aren't supposed to assume everything he says is accurate?

APerno wrote:Too much money to be made being HW Champion - throwing a fight for 'money' makes no sense; what was Moore supposedly doing, giving up his next payday for how much? - No gangster has that kind of money, and if he did he wouldn't be trying to fix a fight.

Fixing a HW Championship fight has (probably) never been economically feasible; with today's PPV revenues, impossible! - There has to be more than money involved.

Bullshit, bob arum paid over $100,000 just to get Axel Schulz rated so Foreman could have an easy defense plus whatever he paid the judges to rob Axel after he outboxed Foreman. If hes willing to pay THAT MUCH just to get some bum rated to keep the Foreman gravvy train rolling you think they wouldnt fix Foreman-Moorer to get the second most marketable HW in the wotld a title?? Moorer was a nobody who barely won his title on a controversial one round swing. With guys like Holy, Bowe, Lewis, and Tyson expected to get parole in 4 months a guy like Moorer wasnt keeping his title for long. In fact, barring Tyson Foreman was the most lucrative defense for him so if you can sweeten the pot thats exactly when you cash out.

klompton wrote:

APerno wrote:Too much money to be made being HW Champion - throwing a fight for 'money' makes no sense; what was Moore supposedly doing, giving up his next payday for how much? - No gangster has that kind of money, and if he did he wouldn't be trying to fix a fight.

Fixing a HW Championship fight has (probably) never been economically feasible; with today's PPV revenues, impossible! - There has to be more than money involved.

Bullshit, bob arum paid over $100,000 just to get Axel Schulz rated so Foreman could have an easy defense plus whatever he paid the judges to rob Axel after he outboxed Foreman. If hes willing to pay THAT MUCH just to get some bum rated to keep the Foreman gravvy train rolling you think they wouldnt fix Foreman-Moorer to get the second most marketable HW in the wotld a title?? Moorer was a nobody who barely won his title on a controversial one round swing. With guys like Holy, Bowe, Lewis, and Tyson expected to get parole in 4 months a guy like Moorer wasnt keeping his title for long. In fact, barring Tyson Foreman was the most lucrative defense for him so if you can sweeten the pot thats exactly when you cash out.

What controversial one round swing?

klompton wrote:

APerno wrote:Too much money to be made being HW Champion - throwing a fight for 'money' makes no sense; what was Moore supposedly doing, giving up his next payday for how much? - No gangster has that kind of money, and if he did he wouldn't be trying to fix a fight.

Fixing a HW Championship fight has (probably) never been economically feasible; with today's PPV revenues, impossible! - There has to be more than money involved.

Bullshit, bob arum paid over $100,000 just to get Axel Schulz rated so Foreman could have an easy defense plus whatever he paid the judges to rob Axel after he outboxed Foreman. If hes willing to pay THAT MUCH just to get some bum rated to keep the Foreman gravvy train rolling you think they wouldnt fix Foreman-Moorer to get the second most marketable HW in the wotld a title?? Moorer was a nobody who barely won his title on a controversial one round swing. With guys like Holy, Bowe, Lewis, and Tyson expected to get parole in 4 months a guy like Moorer wasnt keeping his title for long. In fact, barring Tyson Foreman was the most lucrative defense for him so if you can sweeten the pot thats exactly when you cash out.

I get the pay-offs to get the ranking part - that is a common event in the game and the amount isn't actually all that staggering when you consider that the WBC and WBA often get sanctioning fees in that neighborhood - but are you saying that Moore then threw the Foreman fight? (You don't seem to actually say that directly.) You are likely correct that Moore would not have stayed champion long, but if he gets by Foreman he then gets to move on and LOSE to the next big guy that comes along, (like you suggest) but what would that paycheck have looked like? That's the number (payday) I am arguing can't be covered by a fixer today, 'the next fight if you win' paycheck.

A couple of hundred thousand is not much and if that's all that is in play, then yes fixing a HW Championship fight is possible - but realistically what would Moore's paycheck post-Foremen have looked like: 8 to 10 Million (and that I believe is at the low end) so how much did Moore get to throw the Foremen fight, it has to be in the 8 - 10 million range or why would Moore take it? Buying Moore to lose to Foreman makes no economic sense from Moore's side; it was not a realistic price for a gambler to meet.


Yes, you can buy rankings, but I still argue you can't buy a HW Champion, not one looking down the road at a multi-million dollar payday.

APerno wrote:
Yes, you can buy rankings, but I still argue you can't buy a HW Champion, not one looking down the road at a multi-million dollar payday.

I guess it could depend if they are being bribed or threatened, incriminating video footage might do the trick if it could result in jail or the threat of harm to a loved one.

Controversial wrote:

APerno wrote:
Yes, you can buy rankings, but I still argue you can't buy a HW Champion, not one looking down the road at a multi-million dollar payday.

I guess it could depend if they are being bribed or threatened, incriminating video footage might do the trick if it could result in jail or the threat of harm to a loved one.

OK true - but a 'pee video' is not what we usually associate with fixed fights - that's the sort of thing we reserve for corrupt politicians and treason (espionage). - Did Larry Holmes actually fear Don King would have his legs broken? No reason for him not to believe it. - I will go with the argument that it would be easier to coerce a HW Champion than to buy him. Some say that was the case with (post-championship) Liston.

APerno wrote:

Controversial wrote:

APerno wrote:
Yes, you can buy rankings, but I still argue you can't buy a HW Champion, not one looking down the road at a multi-million dollar payday.

I guess it could depend if they are being bribed or threatened, incriminating video footage might do the trick if it could result in jail or the threat of harm to a loved one.

OK true - but a 'pee video' is not what we usually associate with fixed fights - that's the sort of thing we reserve for corrupt politicians and treason (espionage). - Did Larry Holmes actually fear Don King would have his legs broken? No reason for him not to believe it. - I will go with the argument that it would be easier to coerce a HW Champion than to buy him. Some say that was the case with (post-championship) Liston.

Sure, just another angle as to why some guys might throw fights or why some boxers had guys who fixed it for them. I imagine it happened a lot when the mob had a lot of influence in boxing, "take a dive or you will get kneecapped", that sort of thing. Harry Haft, one of Marciano's early opponents, claimed he was visited before his fight with Rocky by the mafia and "told" to take a dive.

Tony1244 wrote:

klompton wrote:

APerno wrote:Too much money to be made being HW Champion - throwing a fight for 'money' makes no sense; what was Moore supposedly doing, giving up his next payday for how much? - No gangster has that kind of money, and if he did he wouldn't be trying to fix a fight.

Fixing a HW Championship fight has (probably) never been economically feasible; with today's PPV revenues, impossible! - There has to be more than money involved.

Bullshit, bob arum paid over $100,000 just to get Axel Schulz rated so Foreman could have an easy defense plus whatever he paid the judges to rob Axel after he outboxed Foreman. If hes willing to pay THAT MUCH just to get some bum rated to keep the Foreman gravvy train rolling you think they wouldnt fix Foreman-Moorer to get the second most marketable HW in the wotld a title?? Moorer was a nobody who barely won his title on a controversial one round swing. With guys like Holy, Bowe, Lewis, and Tyson expected to get parole in 4 months a guy like Moorer wasnt keeping his title for long. In fact, barring Tyson Foreman was the most lucrative defense for him so if you can sweeten the pot thats exactly when you cash out.

What controversial one round swing?

The first Holyfield fight. One round on one card and Moorer was never a champion. That one point was because Jerry Roth gave Moorer a 10-10 round after being dropped in the second when traditionally, particularly in Las Vegas, even rounds are not only discouraged but extra points are encouraged for knockdowns. So yeah, it was a controversially scored fight. Plenty of people, myself included, felt Holyfield won that fight. Holyfield turned in an awful performance yet managed to drop Moorer and held him to a one round swing on the cards and Im supposed to believe that this weak chinned ex lhw whod gone life and death with several journeymen was on the road to super stardom and never would have considered selling out his title? Please. Thats above and beyond the fact that Foreman never knocked out a top rated fighter in his second career, landed harder punches than the finisher on Moorer without result, lost damn near ever round, then Moorer just stands in front of him and takes a weak right and goes down... after which Arum and Foreman embark on ridiculously crooked circus sideshow of a "championship" reign?? Forgive me if I dont believe that the bribes began and ended with Schulz, lol.

There is no way that Holyfield deserved the decision against Moorer. Moorer should have won that fight by several points. He did next to nothing in most of the rounds.

there was a 3 Part bio vid on YouTube about the British L-HW Contender, Jock Taylor who spoke quite candidly about his career and fellow fighters, including mention of Fights "you can't win", your not going to win... Don Cockell and I think one other, Reg Spring maybe...

but the point was he was very straight about how it worked. insightful video.

Mayweather - Corrales
Mayweather - Ortiz
Mayweather - Marquez
Mayweather - Canelo
Mayweather - Guerrero
Mayweather - Pacquiao
Mayweather - Berto
Mayweather - Mosely
Mayweather - Cotto
Mayweather - Maidana I II
Mayweather - Baldomir
Mayweather - Judah
Ali - Liston I II
Foreman - Moorer
Tyson - Seldon
Lewis - Holyfield I
Trinidad - DE La Hoya
Chavez - Whitaker
Ward - Kovalev I II
Williams - Cintron
ALL of Wilders "fights"
Leonard - Duran II
Holmes - Witherspoon

montrealsuper wrote:Mayweather - Corrales
Mayweather - Ortiz
Mayweather - Marquez
Mayweather - Canelo
Mayweather - Guerrero
Mayweather - Pacquiao
Mayweather - Berto
Mayweather - Mosely
Mayweather - Cotto
Mayweather - Maidana I II
Mayweather - Baldomir
Mayweather - Judah
Ali - Liston I II
Foreman - Moorer
Tyson - Seldon
Lewis - Holyfield I
Trinidad - DE La Hoya
Chavez - Whitaker
Ward - Kovalev I II
Williams - Cintron
ALL of Wilders "fights"
Leonard - Duran II
Holmes - Witherspoon

You misread the thread; it's not outcomes you didn't like.

Tony1244 wrote:

montrealsuper wrote:Mayweather - Corrales
Mayweather - Ortiz
Mayweather - Marquez
Mayweather - Canelo
Mayweather - Guerrero
Mayweather - Pacquiao
Mayweather - Berto
Mayweather - Mosely
Mayweather - Cotto
Mayweather - Maidana I II
Mayweather - Baldomir
Mayweather - Judah
Ali - Liston I II
Foreman - Moorer
Tyson - Seldon
Lewis - Holyfield I
Trinidad - DE La Hoya
Chavez - Whitaker
Ward - Kovalev I II
Williams - Cintron
ALL of Wilders "fights"
Leonard - Duran II
Holmes - Witherspoon

You misread the thread; it's not outcomes you didn't like.

Fights can be fixed in a multitude of ways. It's not always a mutual fix or a dive. It can be like Lewis vs Holy I where Holy knew if he just played it safe and lasted 12, King had the judges under control.

Wow.

montrealsuper wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

montrealsuper wrote:Mayweather - Corrales
Mayweather - Ortiz
Mayweather - Marquez
Mayweather - Canelo
Mayweather - Guerrero
Mayweather - Pacquiao
Mayweather - Berto
Mayweather - Mosely
Mayweather - Cotto
Mayweather - Maidana I II
Mayweather - Baldomir
Mayweather - Judah
Ali - Liston I II
Foreman - Moorer
Tyson - Seldon
Lewis - Holyfield I
Trinidad - DE La Hoya
Chavez - Whitaker
Ward - Kovalev I II
Williams - Cintron
ALL of Wilders "fights"
Leonard - Duran II
Holmes - Witherspoon

You misread the thread; it's not outcomes you didn't like.

Fights can be fixed in a multitude of ways. It's not always a mutual fix or a dive. It can be like Lewis vs Holy I where Holy knew if he just played it safe and lasted 12, King had the judges under control.

I looked at the two judges, one who score for Holyfield (Eugenia Williams) and the other who called it a draw (Larry O'Connell) - nothing much stands out in Eugenia Williams history that makes him look crooked, or even having a any history with King fighters. (A more knowledgeable eye might see more.) Eugenia Williams does seem to spend a lot of time in New Jersey

Larry O'Connell on the other hand does have one odd decision - He is out of step with the others judges on the (1999) De La Hoya-Quartey bout; but did King have a contract with Ike Quarterly or De La Hoya? - If King was promoting De La Hoya then he certainly wouldn't have like O'Connell's decision.

Earlier (1998) O'Connell had Gonzalez over Chavez; was King still promoting Chavez in 1998, because if so King certainly couldn't have liked that call.

I don't see which judges you feel Don King had in his pocket. - I do agree with your assessment that fights can be 'fixed' at many levels. I like to reserve the word fixed for 'dives' - fights where the gambling crowed has taken an interest. - But no doubt fixing judges is as old as the game itself.