BoxRec

I don't believe there are many people who will ever become as good as Messi, no matter how much they train even more convincing, I'm quite confident Ronaldo trains a lot more.

Ofcourse training and education helps, a lot in fact, but talent certainly helps.

Some people are born as a cripple, they can train whatever they want, but will never become as good as someone who isn't, especially not with a similar amount of training.

Counter-puncher wrote:I've listened to Matthew Syed on his radio show a lot, and the irony of your evangelical fervour for his theories is he would disagree with your arguments himself

I listen to it too and tend to agree with you.
Ok taking physicality out of it, do you believe everything else is learned or there are natural abilities for example ring iq

The best boxing example I can think of to sum this is up is Scott Quigg.

Likely to be naturally predisposed to high fitness levels, but other than that, has no ATG physical attributes. By all accounts is an absolute gym rat and trains like no man alive. If the "talent is myth" theory were true - he would be a multi-weight undefeated champion topping P4P lists because he works harder than everyone else.

The reality is, hard work has seen him absolutely maximise his potential and become a world champion, but has found his level which is a rung below the elite in his division.

samdance wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:I've listened to Matthew Syed on his radio show a lot, and the irony of your evangelical fervour for his theories is he would disagree with your arguments himself

I listen to it too and tend to agree with you.
Ok taking physicality out of it, do you believe everything else is learned or there are natural abilities for example ring iq

As an example hand-eye coordination is something that can be improved by constant training but which some people still have innately superior abilities

... call it what it is ... Genetic Endowment ...

... (the baseline for success in any discipline) ...

Talent = naturaly being born possessing the qualitys (strength, speed, iq, reflexes etc.) required for boxing

That means talent. You cant teach GGG kind of power. Either you born with it or not. You cant teach gary russell jr kind of speed, u got it or u dont.

An untalented boxer can become good when he trains hard

A talented boxer doesnt become good when he trains hard, he becomes phenomenal

cpfc_fan wrote:The best boxing example I can think of to sum this is up is Scott Quigg.

Likely to be naturally predisposed to high fitness levels, but other than that, has no ATG physical attributes. By all accounts is an absolute gym rat and trains like no man alive. If the "talent is myth" theory were true - he would be a multi-weight undefeated champion topping P4P lists because he works harder than everyone else.

The reality is, hard work has seen him absolutely maximise his potential and become a world champion, but has found his level which is a rung below the elite in his division.

It's not just about quantity of practice it's quality too, plus I would say becoming a world champion is pretty good and puts him at an extremely high ability

samdance wrote:

cpfc_fan wrote:The best boxing example I can think of to sum this is up is Scott Quigg.

Likely to be naturally predisposed to high fitness levels, but other than that, has no ATG physical attributes. By all accounts is an absolute gym rat and trains like no man alive. If the "talent is myth" theory were true - he would be a multi-weight undefeated champion topping P4P lists because he works harder than everyone else.

The reality is, hard work has seen him absolutely maximise his potential and become a world champion, but has found his level which is a rung below the elite in his division.

It's not just about quantity of practice it's quality too, plus I would say becoming a world champion is pretty good and puts him at an extremely high ability

Valid point

There are people who are born with the ability to do a particular sport better than others. I ran track in high school and competed against a few of the best runners in America. What separated them from me was their natural abilities, not work ethic. Hard work can make you improve, but not everyone who works hard and trains countless hours is going to be a world-class athlete. I was one of the best in my county, but I did not have the genetics to be as fast as the elite.

samdance wrote:I am interested to hear people's opinions on this as I forever hear "that boxer wasted his talent" or rjj was naturally gifted etc.

What does RJJ have to do with talent? He has the best reflexes in the animal kingdom. That's a physical gift.

@ this thread.

Lackeos wrote:

samdance wrote:I am interested to hear people's opinions on this as I forever hear "that boxer wasted his talent" or rjj was naturally gifted etc.

What does RJJ have to do with talent? He has the best reflexes in the animal kingdom. That's a physical gift.

No not imo, what he possessed was an incredible learned ability to read an opponents movement so knew quicker than most to move out of the way.
I would bet that even in his prime he would be no quicker than you at setting off after he heard the gun in a 100m race

Badhusker wrote: @ this thread.

You took the time to comment that the thread is boring haha idiotic

RScarf1 wrote:There are people who are born with the ability to do a particular sport better than others. I ran track in high school and competed against a few of the best runners in America. What separated them from me was their natural abilities, not work ethic. Hard work can make you improve, but not everyone who works hard and trains countless hours is going to be a world-class athlete. I was one of the best in my county, but I did not have the genetics to be as fast as the elite.

I'm talking about complex tasks not running in a straight line

samdance wrote:Anyone who has read the Matthew Syed book bounce or other books that argue the same theory will be aware of the theory that innate talent is a myth.
It argues that no one is born superior in skill than anyone else, and that everything is down to hours and hours of purposeful practice.

I am interested to hear people's opinions on this as I forever hear "that boxer wasted his talent" or rjj was naturally gifted etc.

If talent were a myth, they'd take anyone for fighter pilot training. The only thing they'd be interested in is how hard you practice.

Talent is real. The Bible talks about talent. Some people with great talent use it to great advantage and that’s where we get the Michelangelo’s and Thomas Edison’s. Some folks with minor talent waste it. That’s where we get the skid row bums and panhandlers. Or maybe they have very good talent and waste it. That’s where we get the Buster Douglas’s and Tyson Fury’s. Or very good talent and use it -- like Wilt Chamberlain and Tom Brady.

Basketball coach John Wooden said, “Don’t give me players with experience. I don't want them. Give me athletes with talent. I’ll teach them how to play basketball.” Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton made John Wooden – along with the other great athletes he was able to recruit.

In Boxing, ideally you’d like to combine Tunney’s brain, Golovkin’s chin, Calzaghe’s speed and reflexes, Lomachenko’s vision, Mayweather’s sense of distance and timing, Joshua’s strength and power, Foreman’s business sense, Moore’s longevity, Leonard’s innate likeability, and Ali’s sense of showmanship.

Talent + Timing + Commitment + Relationships + Hard Work = Success!

Talent is no myth. All men are not born equal. There's too much wrong in this thread to correct

Enlightened-One wrote:Talent + Timing + Commitment + Relationships + Hard Work = Success!

....And a little bit of luck, of course....

Ossyrules wrote:Talent is no myth. All men are not born equal. There's too much wrong in this thread to correct

Care to provide an example of an elite person in their field...or just keep pretending you have the ability to disprove the theory

So maybe with harder work Paulie couldve been an ATG puncher....

Ok I accept that people are born to be potentially faster than others are potentially to be etc But in regards to getting to the top of ones game (anything complex i.e. Musician, chess player, boxer) there are so many different aspects of the task, that simply having a few physical advantages mean so little. Believing that you don't have the talent in something is a very easy way to say I'll just give up.

crusader wrote:So maybe with harder work Paulie couldve been an ATG puncher....

You don't believe that paulie was an elite boxer?
Also I would bet that the magic man worked more on speed and technique than say strength.

ValMar wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:Talent + Timing + Commitment + Relationships + Hard Work = Success!

....And a little bit of luck, of course....

.. I would also add proper environment to the above equation..and, of course, genetic predisposition (talent) being an essential part of it..

samdance wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:Talent is no myth. All men are not born equal. There's too much wrong in this thread to correct

Care to provide an example of an elite person in their field...or just keep pretending you have the ability to disprove the theory

Foremans genetics provide him with heavy hands

Tysons genetics provided him with explosive fast power

Roy Jones genetics provide him with extraordinary reflexes, speed and mega plyometric type power

Amir Khans genetics provided him with electric hand speed

I could go on if needed?

Understand that talent without hard work to realise it sees talent go unfulfilled. These people haven't got where they are without great trainers and guidance and the appetite to push themselves massively.

Then there are those that have the ability to remain calm and calculating under intense situations. Some people cannot do that.

Usain bolt apart, the talent and dedication between 8 finalists in a 100m sprint final is very little, 1% difference. The difference between a guy who will run 9.9 and win and the other who is running 10.1 and finishing down the field is mental. The ability to remain calm, use nerves positively, focus etc.

There's a lot of stuff you're trying to say isn't natural like reflexes etc. I 100% do not believe that. That is utter shite in my book

Ossyrules wrote:

samdance wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:Talent is no myth. All men are not born equal. There's too much wrong in this thread to correct

Care to provide an example of an elite person in their field...or just keep pretending you have the ability to disprove the theory

Foremans genetics provide him with heavy hands

Tysons genetics provided him with explosive fast power

Roy Jones genetics provide him with extraordinary reflexes, speed and mega plyometric type power

Amir Khans genetics provided him with electric hand speed

I could go on if needed?

Understand that talent without hard work to realise it sees talent go unfulfilled. These people haven't got where they are without great trainers and guidance and the appetite to push themselves massively.

Then there are those that have the ability to remain calm and calculating under intense situations. Some people cannot do that.

Usain bolt apart, the talent and dedication between 8 finalists in a 100m sprint final is very little, 1% difference. The difference between a guy who will run 9.9 and win and the other who is running 10.1 and finishing down the field is mental. The ability to remain calm, use nerves positively, focus etc.

There's a lot of stuff you're trying to say isn't natural like reflexes etc. I 100% do not believe that. That is utter shite in my book

Ok so one example in the book regarding reflexes is that Desmond Douglas an English table tennis player was known to have godlike reflexes in the world of table tennis, the whole England team were sent to a sports science facility where they all had their reflexes measured using an exercise non-related to table tennis. The results showed Desmond Douglas had the slowest reflexes, my point is that it had to have been learned.
Also staying calm in situations of course can be learned, and comes from experience.