BoxRec

It's actually quite a bit different than Narvaez's guys.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Leija is more accomplished than anyone Wlad beat. Haye is pretty clearly his best win. Wlad deserves credit for facing the best of a weak era, on paper it's not much different from Omar Narvaez victims. I'm pretty surprised you place so much value on titles. I'll tell you what, Mosley and Cotto would have long dominant runs against a bunch like that in their divisions. They only lost to p4p caliber fighters until Shane got really old and Trout.

I don't disagree with most of that. Not sure about the Leija is more accomplished than anyone Wlad beat part, or Haye being "clearly" Wlad's best win part, but I'm with ya on a lot of that. Wlad's reign is better than Narvaez's.

crusader wrote:It's actually quite a bit different than Narvaez's guys.

Wlad is as clearly above Narvaez as the other two are above him. I'll give you that, just a long stretch of dominance example that doesn't matter. Holyfield never had a long dominant run at Heavyweight because he was facing killers.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

crusader wrote:It's actually quite a bit different than Narvaez's guys.

Wlad is as clearly above Narvaez as the other two are above him. I'll give you that, just a long stretch of dominance example that doesn't matter. Holyfield never had a long dominant run at Heavyweight because he was facing killers.

Narvaez had a long run, but routinely wouldn't even face guys who were Top 10 ranked guys in his own division. Wlad fought Top 10 guys most of the time, it's just that even THOSE guys still sucked pretty much

Holyfield ranks well above Wlad for me, and I'm 100% confident he'd have kicked Wlad's ass in his prime.

In fact I'd almost be curious as to what would happen if Wlad and Holyfield were to have to met circa 2000 when Wlad was still exciting to watch, and Holyfield was still reasonably formidable.

I certainly agree that the other two fought and beat better opposition than Wlad. Narvaez typically defended against 'wtf how is this guy ranked/who is this' challengers though...it would be comparable to Wlad regularly facing guys like Agit Kabayel (or worse).

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Leija is more accomplished than anyone Wlad beat. Haye is pretty clearly his best win. Wlad deserves credit for facing the best of a weak era, on paper it's not much different from Omar Narvaez victims. I'm pretty surprised you place so much value on titles. I'll tell you what, Mosley and Cotto would have long dominant runs against a bunch like that in their divisions. They only lost to p4p caliber fighters until Shane got really old and Trout.

I don't disagree with most of that. Not sure about the Leija is more accomplished than anyone Wlad beat part, or Haye being "clearly" Wlad's best win part, but I'm with ya on a lot of that. Wlad's reign is better than Narvaez's.

Jesse had a win and a draw with a still highly capable Azumah Nelson. The second win doesn't count for as much. Byrd was a much more accomplished Heavyweight than Haye, you're right about that. Factoring in his Cruiserweight work would make him the most accomplished but not neccesarily the best win. Probably going outside my own guidelines with Haye being a more dangerous opponent.

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

crusader wrote:It's actually quite a bit different than Narvaez's guys.

Wlad is as clearly above Narvaez as the other two are above him. I'll give you that, just a long stretch of dominance example that doesn't matter. Holyfield never had a long dominant run at Heavyweight because he was facing killers.

Narvaez had a long run, but routinely wouldn't even face guys who were Top 10 ranked guys in his own division. Wlad fought Top 10 guys most of the time, it's just that even THOSE guys still sucked pretty much

As I said, Wlad deserves credit for facing the best available. I said that before I mentioned Narvaez for a reason. The list is still shit, just not as shitty as Omar's. He merits a HOF spot for his dominance and facing the best. Other guys are more deserving, I'd vote for Winky over him too plus a bunch of guys that haven't made it like Laciar.

Wlad's standing can also improve if someone like Pulev or Povetkin were to catch lightning in a bottle and beat Joshua.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad's standing can also improve if someone like Pulev or Povetkin were to catch lightning in a bottle and beat Joshua.

Hell in a lot of ways his win over Povetkin already looks a little better. Povetkin has had by far the most significant wins of his career SINCE losing to Wlad.

If you broke down his 3 or 4 most significant wins they've probably all come since losing to Wlad.

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad's standing can also improve if someone like Pulev or Povetkin were to catch lightning in a bottle and beat Joshua.

Hell in a lot of ways his win over Povetkin already looks a little better. Povetkin has had by far the most significant wins of his career SINCE losing to Wlad.

If you broke down his 3 or 4 most significant wins they've probably all come since losing to Wlad.

I'd say Chagaev and Chambers are probably his best wins. I don't know what to say about Byrd, he was fairly a shell by then. He was already noticeably slipping before the second Wlad fight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad's standing can also improve if someone like Pulev or Povetkin were to catch lightning in a bottle and beat Joshua.

Hell in a lot of ways his win over Povetkin already looks a little better. Povetkin has had by far the most significant wins of his career SINCE losing to Wlad.

If you broke down his 3 or 4 most significant wins they've probably all come since losing to Wlad.

I'd say Chagaev and Chambers are probably his best wins. I don't know what to say about Byrd, he was fairly a shell by then. He was already noticeably slipping before the second Wlad fight.

A win over Chambers don't mean much in my book.

I'd give him more credit for Takam. The Mike Perez win is at least even with the Chambers win my eyes.

(I would say Huck as well, but I thought Huck deserved the win over Povetkin)

The Chambers win is good compared to what most of the active guys have done

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
Hell in a lot of ways his win over Povetkin already looks a little better. Povetkin has had by far the most significant wins of his career SINCE losing to Wlad.

If you broke down his 3 or 4 most significant wins they've probably all come since losing to Wlad.

I'd say Chagaev and Chambers are probably his best wins. I don't know what to say about Byrd, he was fairly a shell by then. He was already noticeably slipping before the second Wlad fight.

A win over Chambers don't mean much in my book.

I'd give him more credit for Takam. The Mike Perez win is at least even with the Chambers win my eyes.

(I would say Huck as well, but I thought Huck deserved the win over Povetkin)

Chambers was a good fighter then. A win over any of the recent guys doesn't mean anything in my book. Takam isn't bad, nothing special. He and prime Chambers would be a tight one.

If Chambers was as hard to beat in real life as he can be on Fight Night: Champion he'd have really been something

Either way, the discussion of Povetkin's wins show you how dire the situation was. I certainly don't think beating Takam, Duhaupas, Perez and wach have elevated him. That's Wilder kind of stuff.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Either way, the discussion of Povetkin's wins show you how dire the situation was. I certainly don't think beating Takam, Duhaupas, Perez and wach have elevated him. That's Wilder kind of stuff.

It wasn't a comment meaning that his recent opposition has been great, it was more of a comment on how sh*tty his opposition was pre-Wlad. He doesn't have a particularly impressive resume at any point.

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad's standing can also improve if someone like Pulev or Povetkin were to catch lightning in a bottle and beat Joshua.

Hell in a lot of ways his win over Povetkin already looks a little better. Povetkin has had by far the most significant wins of his career SINCE losing to Wlad.

If you broke down his 3 or 4 most significant wins they've probably all come since losing to Wlad.

Gilgamesh I respect and value your opinion. But I disagree on this for one reason. 2 failed ped tests erase anything in recent history for Povetkin

tiny_acres wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Wlad's standing can also improve if someone like Pulev or Povetkin were to catch lightning in a bottle and beat Joshua.

Hell in a lot of ways his win over Povetkin already looks a little better. Povetkin has had by far the most significant wins of his career SINCE losing to Wlad.

If you broke down his 3 or 4 most significant wins they've probably all come since losing to Wlad.

Gilgamesh I respect and value your opinion. But I disagree on this for one reason. 2 failed ped tests erase anything in recent history for Povetkin

It erased the Wilder fight from happening. My view on PED's is this. Let 'em all take 'em. That way we don't get any more fight cancellations over it. I don't give a f*ck if guys are roided to the gills or not. It's their life, and they're the ones that are gonna pay the price when the consequences of taking that stuff comes calling...if they think it's worth it whatever.

I figure several fighters, including fighters I greatly admire have done PED's, and just happened to be slicker at not getting caught than Povetkin.

If one of my favorites was suddenly busted using PED's, I wouldn't like him any less for it.

Would I prefer a sport where every fight was 100% clean? Yes

Do I expect we'll ever get it? No

So in the meantime. If the table is tilted, and the game is rigged, and guys feel like they gotta bend the rules a little to get their share I can't say I blame them.

I don't think that tarnishes his legacy either, it's the lack of legacy that's the problem. He's still looking up at the Rahman's of the sport.

Didn't know that Shane was fighting. I wish him the best, too many guys like Roy are fighting way beyond their time, ruining themselves, and the sport.