Heavyweight Division Greatest Chin Ever?

[Kalan]

Chuvalo would have to be up there as well. He was past it when he fought Frazier and Foreman anyway

Chuvalo was NOT past it when he fought Frazier and Foreman -- and got stopped early by both... He was 29 when he fought Frazier and 31 or 32 vs Foreman... The Canadian fought a rematch with Muhammad Ali 2 years after he fought Foreman, when he was 34.. Chuvalo thought that was one of his best fights of his career.. He thought he did much better in the rematch because he took the first fight on short notice.. He won several rounds against Ali on 2 judges' cards.. He continued to fight for more than 10 years after he fought Frazier and was never stopped again except by Foreman 2 years later. Those were the best punchers Chuvalo fought and he couldn't hang. Frazier in particular was a small Heavyweight, but beat on Chuvalo like he owned him. When Frazier fought Foreman he got murdered -- and that's what generally happens to a little guy when he faces a big guy who's a great fighter.

Bonavena fought Frazier twice without getting knocked down or stopped. Bonavena knocked Chuvalo down in my view.. There was a glove touch.. That has been edited out of youtube versions of the fight.. Amos Johnson definitely decked Chuvalo in sparring and George will admit that.

[BoxBuzz]

Then it stands to reason that Ali hit harder than Frazier, since he knocked both Foreman and Bonavena down and out.


When one utilizes Solid reasoning......one always reaps unarguable assumptions.

[Ambling Alp II]

Chuvalo would have to be up there as well. He was past it when he fought Frazier and Foreman anyway

Chuvalo was NOT past it when he fought Frazier and Foreman -- and got stopped early by both... He was 29 when he fought Frazier and 31 or 32 vs Foreman... The Canadian fought a rematch with Muhammad Ali 2 years after he fought Foreman, when he was 34.. Chuvalo thought that was one of his best fights of his career.. He thought he did much better in the rematch because he took the first fight on short notice.. He won several rounds against Ali on 2 judges' cards.. He continued to fight for more than 10 years after he fought Frazier and was never stopped again except by Foreman 2 years later. Those were the best punchers Chuvalo fought and he couldn't hang. Frazier in particular was a small Heavyweight, but beat on Chuvalo like he owned him. When Frazier fought Foreman he got murdered -- and that's what generally happens to a little guy when he faces a big guy who's a great fighter.

Bonavena fought Frazier twice without getting knocked down or stopped. Bonavena knocked Chuvalo down in my view.. There was a glove touch.. That has been edited out of youtube versions of the fight.. Amos Johnson definitely decked Chuvalo in sparring and George will admit that.

editors note: Chuvalo had a ton of miles on him when he fought Frazier and Foreman.
When Chuvalo fought Ali the 2nd time, no judge gave Chuvalo "several rounds". One gave Chuvalo two rounds, another gave him one. The other gave zero.

[Tony1244]

I voted Ali, but McCall, Mercer or Cobb would also have been good choices. The Cobb KO was probably fixed but it still happened.

[Nile4000]

Chuvalo, or Mercer.

[nobleart1978]

RANDALL Tex COBB

[jas80s]

When Chuvalo fought Foreman he was sent to the ropes by a Foreman punch and Foreman followed up with a series of shots, some of which landed, some of which missed, and some of which hit Chuvalo's gloves. The ref jumped in after a pretty long series of unanswered punches with Chuvalo still on his feet. Chuvalo immediately looked to the ref and said, "are you crazy?"

I have always thought that a prime Chuvalo was a nightmare match up for younger George Foreman as Chuvalo was extremely rugged and George had a greater potential to tire when he was younger. It was a huge tactical risk for Big George to unload early, but he got the stoppage so more power to him. An older George would have likely fared better against Chuvalo as he was more patient and seem to keep his endurance better.

Having said that, I give Chuvalo a nice mention here, but I might lean toward McCall, just a freakish beard. I agree that Vitali is excellent, but maybe a little hard to truly measure, given not just his ledger, but his tendency not to get hit much. However, the shots he took against Lewis alone should get him in the conversation.

As for guys like Ali and Holyfiend, great chins no doubt, but I would put them at the top of fastest to recover from a huge shot poll, they were both crazy in that department.

[hhaehre]

There are also probably ordinary fighters that happened to have a great chin that nobody thinks about.

Marion Wilson was never knocked out and he fought a lot of quality fighters. He was a survivor and good at covering up but he could definitely take a good shot.

[Tony1244]

HWS who may not be in the top 5 in this category but deserve honorable mention are: Scott LeDoux, Joe Bugner, Larry Middleton.

[Kalan]

Vitali's chin was very good. But he never tangled with a Liston, Frazier thrice, Shavers, Foreman, Lyle. Just Lewis when the Brit was slipping and at the end. If Klitschko had fought the army of punching legends that Ali faced----and he withstood every explosive hook and devastating right---then you could consider his chin as possibly the GOAT. But you live in the realm of nothing but speculation. Maybe Klit could have survived the power of the Ali opposition. But we don't know because he didn't have to face them. Ali proved what was in his chin. Klitschko's chin was never truly tested by greatness.

You're talking like a biased American.. Ali fought little dudes and America had no competition back then.. Half the planet had no professional boxing.

Frazier was a teeny weenie Heavyweight who couldn't put a dent in big, tall, and powerful George Foreman -- but Lil' Joe had Ali quivering around the ring on rubbery legs. Frazier had a better chin than Ali, but was easier to hit.. Smokin' got stopped 3 times and knocked down 10 or 15 times because he tried to walk through punches.. Ali never hurt Foreman.. George was exhausted because he started training camp at 280 and took off 60 pounds in short order. He never went more than 2 rounds in the previous 3 years and had CRAP endurance. Check out the fight. When Foreman went down he held his head OFF the canvas for the entire count -- but his chest was heaving.. He barely had a mark on him. Especially compared to the swollen head and face Foreman displayed after swinger Alex Stewart smashed him in the head for the entire fight. Foreman claims he was drugged for the Ali fight and that's why his punches were so fluffy. Cooper weighed 185 and lacked Heavyweight strength. He decked Ali solidly and hurt him badly.

The Klitschko's both fought to age 41.. When Ali was only 38 he got hit a lot and hurt a lot. They should have stopped the Holmes fight earlier. Ali's life might have been different and he could have enjoyed his retirement more. Vitali beat up and stopped 3 Heavyweights who knocked his brother down 8 or 10 times.

You're missing the fact that Liston and Shavers were knocked out by little guys who weighed 195.. Liston got his jaw broken by a Light Heavyweight. They would never put a dent in Vitali... 250-pound Lennox Lewis couldn't put Vitali down or even stagger him when VK was half blind from a thumb strike and palm slashed cuts on his eyelid. Those deep, jagged cuts bled directly into VK's eye.. Despite that, Vitali was winning the Lewis fight on all scorecards after the 6th round when it was stopped. It should have gone to the scorecards for a Technical Decision win for VK..

Lewis knocked Mike Tyson out for the 10-count -- but couldn't shake the bigger, stronger Vitali.. Danny Williams knocked Tyson out.. In his NEXT fight Williams was knocked down repeatedly by Vitali, who blew him away like he was nothing. Those HOFers refused to fight Vitali.. Lewis said he would rematch Vitali but lied his ass off.. HOF means nothing.. Ingemar Johansson is in the HOF.. He was wide open and would last maybe 2 minutes with Vitali Klitschko.

[Tony1244]

Vitali's chin was very good. But he never tangled with a Liston, Frazier thrice, Shavers, Foreman, Lyle. Just Lewis when the Brit was slipping and at the end. If Klitschko had fought the army of punching legends that Ali faced----and he withstood every explosive hook and devastating right---then you could consider his chin as possibly the GOAT. But you live in the realm of nothing but speculation. Maybe Klit could have survived the power of the Ali opposition. But we don't know because he didn't have to face them. Ali proved what was in his chin. Klitschko's chin was never truly tested by greatness.

You're talking like a biased American.. Ali fought little dudes and America had no competition back then.. Half the planet had no professional boxing.

Frazier was a teeny weenie Heavyweight who couldn't put a dent in big, tall, and powerful George Foreman -- but Lil' Joe had Ali quivering around the ring on rubbery legs. Frazier had a better chin than Ali, but was easier to hit.. Smokin' got stopped 3 times and knocked down 10 or 15 times because he tried to walk through punches.. Ali never hurt Foreman.. George was exhausted because he started training camp at 280 and took off 60 pounds in short order. He never went more than 2 rounds in the previous 3 years and had CRAP endurance. Check out the fight. When Foreman went down he held his head OFF the canvas for the entire count -- but his chest was heaving.. He barely had a mark on him. Especially compared to the swollen head and face Foreman displayed after swinger Alex Stewart smashed him in the head for the entire fight. Foreman claims he was drugged for the Ali fight and that's why his punches were so fluffy. Cooper weighed 185 and lacked Heavyweight strength. He decked Ali solidly and hurt him badly.

The Klitschko's both fought to age 41.. When Ali was only 38 he got hit a lot and hurt a lot. They should have stopped the Holmes fight earlier. Ali's life might have been different and he could have enjoyed his retirement more. Vitali beat up and stopped 3 Heavyweights who knocked his brother down 8 or 10 times.

You're missing the fact that Liston and Shavers were knocked out by little guys who weighed 195.. Liston got his jaw broken by a Light Heavyweight. They would never put a dent in Vitali... 250-pound Lennox Lewis couldn't put Vitali down or even stagger him when VK was half blind from a thumb strike and palm slashed cuts on his eyelid. Those deep, jagged cuts bled directly into VK's eye.. Despite that, Vitali was winning the Lewis fight on all scorecards after the 6th round when it was stopped. It should have gone to the scorecards for a Technical Decision win for VK..

Lewis knocked Mike Tyson out for the 10-count -- but couldn't shake the bigger, stronger Vitali.. Danny Williams knocked Tyson out.. In his NEXT fight Williams was knocked down repeatedly by Vitali, who blew him away like he was nothing. Those HOFers refused to fight Vitali.. Lewis said he would rematch Vitali but lied his ass off.. HOF means nothing.. Ingemar Johansson is in the HOF.. He was wide open and would last maybe 2 minutes with Vitali Klitschko.

Kalan, you're putting too much emphasize on size, especially when part of the size is a lot of fat like in the case with Sam Peter. I'm not saying the Klitschkos and Lennox Lewis weren't great, they certainly were great, but so was Frazier. The Klitschkos didn't have many opponents like Frazier, Foreman, or Liston. Sam Peter, Chambers, Jennings, Corrie Sanders simply weren't as good, regardless of the exact weights.

I question whether Foreman got up to 260 LBS before the Ali fight. I'm not saying I know he didn't, but I never had heard that he did.

What Klitschko opponent (either brother) attacked the body like Frazier did?

What Klit opponent had a jab like Ali, Holmes, or Liston?

What Klit opponent hit like Foreman or Shavers?

[HomicideHenry]

I'll also throw Jess Willard's name into the matter, because the kind of punishment he took from Johnson only to knock him out, and taking such a brutal blasting by Dempsey puts him up there for sure. I'll also put Carnera into the mix, the kind of punishment he took from Max Baer was amazing. Tony Galento also should get a mention.

[Ambling Alp II]

It is a stretch to say that Galento and Carnera had good chins, much less great.

[Kalan]

Then it stands to reason that Ali hit harder than Frazier, since he knocked both Foreman and Bonavena down and out.


When one utilizes Solid reasoning......one always reaps unarguable assumptions.

Your reasoning is always squishy BuzzBox. You don't think things through because you're trying too hard to be sarcastic, which doesn't work for you. Just be straight up. Frazier's quick destructions of fighters who went a long way (or the distance) with Ali carry more weight than their respective meetings with Bonavena and Foreman. Since Foreman had other problems that night besides getting hit -- and since Bonavena caught a final round, perfect punch from Ali---who tried to clinch immediately after he landed it, and never went to a neutral corner. And more than likely OB's chin was greatly diminished from his 15-round pounding by Frazier and a career of being an absorber -- and he was certainly more damaged in Frazier II than by Ali.

Ali was certainly bigger, taller and stronger than Frazier. He had a much better reach and range. He hit harder with his right hand. But Frazier had a natural stroke going with his left hook. It was obviously consistently more powerful than anything Ali threw. But I'm know from experience you're not getting this.

[BoxBuzz]

You know I'm getting it quite well, but it's nice to have you spec it out for us. In this case I lean toward agreement.

I'm just surprised to learn from you that direct comparisons of performance are not as meaningful as the tangent logic that you utilize to make some of your points.

I don't know if you noticed....but you just disregarded direct performance comparison data, and introduced/substituted various and sundry excuses to qualify what you apparently want to classify as "outlier outcomes."

Which is fine on occasion....but you champion outliers into an inordinate amount of your analysis.

Especially the "new breed" vs the "founding foughters".


Not sure that would hold up when scrutinized by your fellow Mensa members.

[Kalan]

You know I'm getting it quite well, but it's nice to have you spec it out for us. In this case I lean toward agreement.

I'm just surprised to learn from you that direct comparisons of performance are not as meaningful as the tangent logic that you utilize to make some of your points.

I don't know if you noticed....but you just disregarded direct performance comparison data, and introduced/substituted various and sundry excuses to qualify what you apparently want to classify as "outlier outcomes."

Which is fine on occasion....but you champion outliers into an inordinate amount of your analysis.

Especially the "new breed" vs the "founding foughters".


Not sure that would hold up when scrutinized by your fellow Mensa members.

If you want direct comparisons of Ali an Joe's performances you can go with their Dough Jones, Jimmy Ellis, George Chuvalo fights etc.. Some of the guys Ali fought Frazier knocked stiff.. How can you compare fighters of different eras who had no common opponents??? The only possible way is to look at their size, height, reach, physical assets, athletic ability, stance, hand position, footwork, movement, punching speed and range, boxing ability such as elusiveness, power, toughness, intelligence, work ethic, and so on. But you're definitely are an outlier when it comes to understanding what people are talking about or making any sense. Doing so may force you to think after all, and you may not manage that well.

Founding Fathers??? Mendoza? Cribb? Sullivan? Who are you talking about? ... And new breed???.. Are GGG and Joshua the new breed because they knock a whole lot more people out than SRR, SRL, Ali, Norton, Armstrong, and other hittable individuals who lost a ton of fights??? "Yes" I guess you would say.

[gp.]

t... Chuvalo didn't last long with hard punchers Frazier or Foreman. If he met some of the killers around today he'd get obliterated even faster. Chuvalo was pulled out in those fights because he was getting murdered...

Well, yes - but isn't that what happens to guys with great chins and poor skills (comparatively)? They just sit in there getting murdered until the fight gets stopped. That speaks well for his chin, not badly.

[gp.]

Ali, or McCall, no question. Vitali doesn't come close. If an aging disinterested Lennox could open him up like a tomato can, you would hate to think what serious punchers in their primes could do to him.

What's that got to do with his chin?

[BoxBuzz]

" A great Chin" probably needs to be narrowly defined I suppose.


I think of it as showing little if any dizziness to shots, .....falling down as a result of losing consciousness or losing balance from the trauma of a shot defines weaknesses of a chin to me.

A bleeding noggin? Does that count? I don't think Vitali was dizzy just bloodied. It is very subjective I suppose.

Demonstrated greatness examples.....McCall not falling from free swings from Lennox......Chuvalo having to have the ref stop fights from shots that ought to be killing him.
But JUST NOT FALLING..does not tell the whole story......because sometimes you fall because of PHYSICS of the angles of shots, based on where your body is, and in what position you were in when the shot landed. Which is why many fighters who have "fallen" should be considered granite chinned in my assessment. Ali is right up there with these guys....why? Cooper knocked him down, Wepner Knocked him down, Frazier knocked him down Banks as well....sounds like a china chinned barbie doll .........to Kalan I'm sure

Banks, Cooper Frazier and Wepner knocked him down. But was his consciousness compromised? Harder to determine. The closest one to a fully clean shot was Coopers. I think he was dazed in that one........but it's questionable that he went down from it, or from a combination of the shot and where/how he was standing.

Wepner we can just take off the list...clearly not a dazing blow....just bad physics from a man standing on your toe.
Banks? Nah
Frazier? Well he was moving backwards and got nailed a beauty that's for sure.......but moving back may have saved him, taking nothing from Frazier...but Ali was not nearly out on his feet....so shot well taken.....but...... he fell. But I don't think it was purely from the shot....his balance was in question at the time of the shot which knocked him down with force. Not really a compromised noggin to my way of thinking.

However....there is a shot from that same fight that is more interesting....but it wasn't ruled a KD.......but I believe that it was the worst he had ever been rattled in his career....and he slumped.....it may be the ONLY time he may have ever so briefly been truly....deeply dazed. Because I see no physics excuse for that fall....does anyone else? The fact that Frazier and Foreman were unable to daze him enough to clearly take him off his feet should be all the proof we need.....though he claims he was dazed...he managed the moments very well.


Another way to define it is simpler, when you fall after receiving a shot....blame it on the chin. No excuses.....but that does not work for me. Wepner's KD was about foot on foot, not about fist on face. And a shredded face? That's another one that's hard for me to pin on a chin.

[Kalan]

Ali, or McCall, no question. Vitali doesn't come close. If an aging disinterested Lennox could open him up like a tomato can, you would hate to think what serious punchers in their primes could do to him.

What's that got to do with his chin?

Exactly... Lewis hit Vitali flush when he was half-blinded with blood streaming into his eye from cuts on his eyelid.. He still couldn't hurt him.

Lewis was almost knocked out in the first 2 rounds, so the first 2 rights he threw in the 3rd were a thumb strike and a holding-n-hitting palm rake.. The thumb strike opened a nick on Vitali's left eyelid. The holding-n-hitting palm rake ripped open 2 jagged cuts on VK's eyelid and a cut on his cheek.. Vitali was half blinded so Lewis was able to catch him with big rights that he couldn't land earlier.. Lewis was badly staggered by rights in the 2nd round but couldn't budge the half-blinded Vitali with fully loaded right hands.

Klitschko was winning the fight on all score cards after 6 rounds -- and the fight should have gone to the scorecards because fouls caused the cuts... Since more than 4 rounds had passed, Klitschko should have been awarded a Unanimous Technical Decision: Klitschko TD 6.

Since Vitali Klitschko was a 3-time Heavyweight Champion of the World -- and fought numerous Heavyweight Championship Fights and was never knocked down in his whole career -- fighting well beyond his 41st birthday with no brain damage -- he undoubtedly had the greatest chin ever..

[gp.]

Since Vitali Klitschko was a 3-time Heavyweight Champion of the World -- and fought numerous Heavyweight Championship Fights and was never knocked down in his whole career -- fighting well beyond his 41st birthday with no brain damage -- he undoubtedly had the greatest chin ever..

That means nothing in itself. Someone with that record could, for example, just have been a great defensive boxer who never got caught clean - in fact, having no brain damage would suggest that - a good chin won't stop you getting brain damage. To prove you have a great chin you have to be seen to be repeatedly hit very hard and keep coming through it. It's easier for a relatively poor boxer to prove their chin than for a good one. Floyd Mayweather, for example, can take a punch ok, but nobody has ever managed to hit hit him hard enough or often enough to test whether he has a great chin or not.

[BoxBuzz]

Another thing.....

Roy Jones Jr......IF he would have retired after Ruiz....undefeated.....would we/you be talking about his granite chin?

Food for thought......because I'm thinkin' it's entirely possible that we would be including him here. And...we'd be entirely wrong.

[gp.]

Another thing.....

Roy Jones Jr......IF he would have retired after Ruiz....undefeated.....would we/you be talking about his granite chin?

Food for thought......because I'm thinkin' it's entirely possible that we would be including him here. And...we'd be entirely wrong.

Before Ruiz, when did Roy Jones take a beating and shrug it off? The answer is never - he was too good at not getting hit. So anyone who claimed from that he had a granite chin would have been talking rubbish. Not getting knocked out when you are not getting hit does not mean you have a good chin. Not getting knocked out when you get hit very hard means you have a decent chin. Not getting knocked out when you are often getting hit very hard proves you have a great one.

[Ambling Alp II]

Another thing.....

Roy Jones Jr......IF he would have retired after Ruiz....undefeated.....would we/you be talking about his granite chin?

Food for thought......because I'm thinkin' it's entirely possible that we would be including him here. And...we'd be entirely wrong.

Before Ruiz, when did Roy Jones take a beating and shrug it off? The answer is never - he was too good at not getting hit. So anyone who claimed from that he had a granite chin would have been talking rubbish. Not getting knocked out when you are not getting hit does not mean you have a good chin. Not getting knocked out when you get hit very hard means you have a decent chin. Not getting knocked out when you are often getting hit very hard proves you have a great one.

I agree with both gp and Boxbuzz.
Jones had not proven that he had a great chin. However, Buzz is right that people would have been saying it years after he would have retired had he not fought after the Ruiz fight. Chins seem to be something that have a life of it's own years after a guy retires. People stop looking at the circumstances and just look at knockdowns and kos. People weren't saying Ken Norton had a weak chin when he was in prime.

[Kalan]

Oh yes they were. EVERYONE was saying Norton had no chin. He even got hurt in sparring. Everyone knew that Norton was knocked out by 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia, who was a massive underdog. Norton got bigger and stronger and built up his neck. He worked hard at slipping his head around. He did very well with pure boxers. He could overpower them with his size and strength -- but punchers would be on his case. He had that cross-armed defense with his head sticking out. Ron Lyle was ready to fight him in a heartbeat. That fight went nowhere.

I'm not sure why Norton fought Shavers. That was nuts.. Maybe cuz he did the expert commentary for the Quarry-Shavers fight.. Earnie didn't impress.