BoxRec

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote: Hagler was the undisputed champion for 7 years and fought all comers

NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

Kalan wrote:For the 3rd time... James Toney beat Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, and Reggie Johnson -- all of whom were better boxers and punchers than Hagler.

Michael Nunn scored a 1-punch KO over WBA World Middleweight Champion Sumbu Kalambay. It was the only stoppage of Kalambay's career. Kalambay had a hard time because he wasn't an American -- but In the 5 fights before he fought Nunn, Kalambay scored UDs over Harol Graham (mandatory for Hagler who he refused to fight), Iran Barkley, Mike McCallum, a near shut out win over Robbie Sims (Sims is Hagler's brother who out-boxed Duran by a much wider margin than Hagler did), and an easy stoppage of Doug DeWitt. It was a Unification fight which the WBA DIDN'T want -- so they stripped Kalambay of the title before the fight.. Ray Leonard was an active Middleweight doing the expert commentating for the fight. When Nunn scored his "KO of the Year" Leonard said "Nunn proved he can handle any Middleweight" which presumably included Leonard who never had any intention of fighting a Middleweight the caliber of Nunn.

Mike McCallum, at age 35, fought undefeated ATG Middleweight Champion James Toney to a draw, in possibly the most brutal and hardest fought Middleweight Title Fight of all time.. McCallum scored a crushing 2-round KO over undefeated Julian Jackson -- who was 29-0 and a thunderous puncher -- and who was the only man to beat Terry Norris up to the day Norris beat Sugar Ray Leonard.. Terry Norris later scored a 1-round KO over John Mugabi -- but also boxed Sugar Ray Leonard's ass off while scoring 2 knockdowns -- ending Leonard's career for 6 years.

Reggie Johnson beat undefeated Lamar Parks, 22-0, in a WBA World Middleweight Title Fight. Reggie was the only man who ever beat Parks... Parks finished his career 27-1 at the youthful age of 23.. Parks was a brilliant boxer, but also HIV positive and forced to quit his flourishing Boxing career.. Johnson lost a hard fought SD to ATG James Toney... Johnson knocked undefeated World Light Heavyweight Champion William Guthrie, 24-0, out in 5 savagely fought rounds. Guthrie left the ring on a stretcher. Guthrie took over a year off to recover and fought Michael Nunn in his 1st fight back. That was a dumb idea and Guthrie suffered another brutal beating and stoppage.. Johnson defended the Light Heavyweight Title twice and fought a Unification Fight with ATG LHW King Roy Jones who beat the aging Johnson by a wide margin.. Two years late, at 37, Johnson lost a hard fought SD to Antonio Tarver.. That was a very difficult loss to handle emotionally and he quit the ring. But made 2 comebacks. When he was 42 years old he beat Julio Gonzalez (who beat Dariusz Michalczewski) for something called the IBA Light Heavyweight Title and called it quits for good.

What natural Middleweight (or bigger) did Hagler fight who could match the skills and accomplishments of the top opponents of James Toney????

Obviously you have no answer...

cfang wrote:

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote: Hagler was the undisputed champion for 7 years and fought all comers

NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

He didn't duck herol. When he signed to fight Mugabe graham was fighting at British level only. After that it was all about the Leonard fight

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote:

Kalan wrote:
NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

He didn't duck herol. When he signed to fight Mugabe graham was fighting at British level only. After that it was all about the Leonard fight

Graham was his mandatory... As he only fought 1 fight a year in years 1985, '86, and '87, he had plenty of time to squeeze a couple more defenses in.

Counter-puncher wrote:That's some excellent detail on grahams career, don't expect kalan to take any of it in, though

Just remind yourself that ATG Hagler was 'ducking' a man whose best wins were the mighty Kaylor, and a rather old Kalule.

Counter-puncher wrote:That's some excellent detail on grahams career, don't expect kalan to take any of it in, though

Just remind yourself that ATG Hagler was 'ducking' a man whose best wins were the mighty Kaylor, and a rather old Kalule.

Counter-puncher wrote:That's some excellent detail on grahams career, don't expect kalan to take any of it in, though

Just remind yourself that ATG Hagler was 'ducking' a man whose best wins were the mighty Kaylor, and a rather old Kalule.

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote: Hagler was the undisputed champion for 7 years and fought all comers

NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote: Hagler was the undisputed champion for 7 years and fought all comers

NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

Kalan, are you still pedalling that Herol Graham one?

Can you stop with this nonsense, because it simply isn't true.

No one on this Earth, apart from yourself & Herol Graham gives a damn that Hagler didn't fight Herol Graham & chose to fight Sugar Ray Leonard instead.

If you were Marvellous Marvin Hagler & you were coming to the end of an illustrious career & you'd lost your hunger & a certain Ray Charles Leonard called you up one day in '86 & said, "Hey Marvin, I want to fight you; do you want it?"

What would your answer be?

Do you seriously begrudge Hagler the biggest payday of his career & the richest fight of all-time (as of 1987) in favour of a routine defence against an awkward British guy that managed to lose every big fight he ever contested?

Ossyrules wrote:I’ve just checked into a thread and read Sergio Martinez, kelly Pavlik and Miguel cotto beat hagler at 160.

Checking back out asap

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote: Hagler was the undisputed champion for 7 years and fought all comers

NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

Kalan, are you still pedalling that Herol Graham one?

Can you stop with this nonsense, because it simply isn't true.

No one on this Earth, apart from yourself & Herol Graham gives a damn that Hagler didn't fight Herol Graham & chose to fight Sugar Ray Leonard instead.

If you were Marvellous Marvin Hagler & you were coming to the end of an illustrious career & you'd lost your hunger & a certain Ray Charles Leonard called you up one day in '86 & said, "Hey Marvin, I want to fight you; do you want it?"

What would your answer be?

Do you seriously begrudge Hagler the biggest payday of his career & the richest fight of all-time (as of 1987) in favour of a routine defence against an awkward British guy that managed to lose every big fight he ever contested?

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:
NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

Kalan, are you still pedalling that Herol Graham one?

Can you stop with this nonsense, because it simply isn't true.

No one on this Earth, apart from yourself & Herol Graham gives a damn that Hagler didn't fight Herol Graham & chose to fight Sugar Ray Leonard instead.

If you were Marvellous Marvin Hagler & you were coming to the end of an illustrious career & you'd lost your hunger & a certain Ray Charles Leonard called you up one day in '86 & said, "Hey Marvin, I want to fight you; do you want it?"

What would your answer be?

Do you seriously begrudge Hagler the biggest payday of his career & the richest fight of all-time (as of 1987) in favour of a routine defence against an awkward British guy that managed to lose every big fight he ever contested?

cfang wrote:'Graham could have taken Hag easily' seriously what planet are you on? Graham in his whole career never beat anyone above european level and yet can 'easily' beat one of not the greatest middleweight champions of all time.

Graham didn't deserve his shot at all. He'd beaten mark kaylor and ayub kalule and thats it. Look at the ring top ten middles from 86, graham fought zero of them. You twist facts to suite your arguments. Graham was ranked 1 by the wba at the end of 86, there is no way hagler ducked him, he'd already signed to fight leonard. Graham wasn't in haglers class, before, then or after. His career proves it. A clever and tricky boxer who consistently fell short at world level. Thats why when there wree 3 belts around he managed to win zero of them and thats why hagler when there was one belt around, won it and defended it against all for 7 years straight.


quote="Kalan"]

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:
NO he did NOT fight all comers... He ducked Harol Graham and so was stripped of one title... 12 title defenses in 7 years isn't a lot... He fought one (1) fight each year in 1985, 1986, and 1987... There were some tough Middleweight contenders on the way up and he didn't feel like facing them.

Kalan, are you still pedalling that Herol Graham one?

Can you stop with this nonsense, because it simply isn't true.

No one on this Earth, apart from yourself & Herol Graham gives a damn that Hagler didn't fight Herol Graham & chose to fight Sugar Ray Leonard instead.

If you were Marvellous Marvin Hagler & you were coming to the end of an illustrious career & you'd lost your hunger & a certain Ray Charles Leonard called you up one day in '86 & said, "Hey Marvin, I want to fight you; do you want it?"

What would your answer be?

Do you seriously begrudge Hagler the biggest payday of his career & the richest fight of all-time (as of 1987) in favour of a routine defence against an awkward British guy that managed to lose every big fight he ever contested?

What's not true about it??? I don't begrudge anyone for anything, but facts are facts.. Hagler did the business of Boxing well - as Boxing is a business and NOT a sport -- Graham was 38-0 to that point, a tall and slick boxer with a 77" reach and the British and European Middleweight Champion.. Those are stronger credentials than a Welterweight who had never fought at Middleweight before, and was knocked down and looked terrible in his previous fight against mediocre Welterweight, Kevin Howard, 3 years earlier.. Graham deserved the shot and it was a business decision not to fight him.

Graham was a mandatory challenger and Hagler was fighting once a year at that point so I believe Graham could have taken Hag easily. If Hagler were more active than fighting once a year in 1985, '86, and '87 he could have found a way to fight both his mandatory AND Leonard. He didn't want to.

cfang wrote:

cfang wrote:'Graham could have taken Hag easily' seriously what planet are you on? Graham in his whole career never beat anyone above european level and yet can 'easily' beat one if of not the greatest middleweight champions of all time.

Graham didn't deserve his shot at all. He'd beaten mark kaylor and ayub kalule and thats it. Look at the ring top ten middles from 86, graham fought zero of them. You twist facts to suite your arguments. Graham was ranked 1 by the wba at the end of 86, there is no way hagler ducked him, he'd already signed to fight leonard. Graham wasn't in haglers class, before, then or after. His career proves it. A clever and tricky boxer who consistently fell short at world level. Thats why when there wree 3 belts around he managed to win zero of them and thats why hagler when there was one belt around, won it and defended it against all for 7 years straight.


quote="Kalan"]

Syntax Error wrote:
Kalan, are you still pedalling that Herol Graham one?

Can you stop with this nonsense, because it simply isn't true.

No one on this Earth, apart from yourself & Herol Graham gives a damn that Hagler didn't fight Herol Graham & chose to fight Sugar Ray Leonard instead.

If you were Marvellous Marvin Hagler & you were coming to the end of an illustrious career & you'd lost your hunger & a certain Ray Charles Leonard called you up one day in '86 & said, "Hey Marvin, I want to fight you; do you want it?"

What would your answer be?

Do you seriously begrudge Hagler the biggest payday of his career & the richest fight of all-time (as of 1987) in favour of a routine defence against an awkward British guy that managed to lose every big fight he ever contested?

What's not true about it??? I don't begrudge anyone for anything, but facts are facts.. Hagler did the business of Boxing well - as Boxing is a business and NOT a sport -- Graham was 38-0 to that point, a tall and slick boxer with a 77" reach and the British and European Middleweight Champion.. Those are stronger credentials than a Welterweight who had never fought at Middleweight before, and was knocked down and looked terrible in his previous fight against mediocre Welterweight, Kevin Howard, 3 years earlier.. Graham deserved the shot and it was a business decision not to fight him.

Graham was a mandatory challenger and Hagler was fighting once a year at that point so I believe Graham could have taken Hag easily. If Hagler were more active than fighting once a year in 1985, '86, and '87 he could have found a way to fight both his mandatory AND Leonard. He didn't want to.

cfang wrote:

cfang wrote:

cfang wrote:'Graham could have taken Hag easily' seriously what planet are you on? Graham in his whole career never beat anyone above european level and yet can 'easily' beat one if of not the greatest middleweight champions of all time.

Graham didn't deserve his shot at all. He'd beaten mark kaylor and ayub kalule and thats it. Look at the ring top ten middles from 86, graham fought zero of them. You twist facts to suite your arguments. Graham was ranked 1 by the wba at the end of 86, there is no way hagler ducked him, he'd already signed to fight leonard. Graham wasn't in haglers class, before, then or after. His career proves it. A clever and tricky boxer who consistently fell short at world level. Thats why when there wree 3 belts around he managed to win zero of them and thats why hagler when there was one belt around, won it and defended it against all for 7 years straight.


quote="Kalan"]

What's not true about it??? I don't begrudge anyone for anything, but facts are facts.. Hagler did the business of Boxing well - as Boxing is a business and NOT a sport -- Graham was 38-0 to that point, a tall and slick boxer with a 77" reach and the British and European Middleweight Champion.. Those are stronger credentials than a Welterweight who had never fought at Middleweight before, and was knocked down and looked terrible in his previous fight against mediocre Welterweight, Kevin Howard, 3 years earlier.. Graham deserved the shot and it was a business decision not to fight him.

Graham was a mandatory challenger and Hagler was fighting once a year at that point so I believe Graham could have taken Hag easily. If Hagler were more active than fighting once a year in 1985, '86, and '87 he could have found a way to fight both his mandatory AND Leonard. He didn't want to.

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote:

cfang wrote:

cfang wrote:Graham was not better than minter. Minter won fights at world level, graham failed to do that. He was ok beating british guys like kaylor or melfah or cook. Every time he stepped up he lost. Every time! All show but lacking at top level. Minter at least won his title and defended it.

Hagler didn't duck him which we've proved. Theres no evidence that he'd have a chance against hagler, let alone 'beat him easily' like you said

Kalan wrote:

cfang wrote:Graham was not better than minter. Minter won fights at world level, graham failed to do that. He was ok beating british guys like kaylor or melfah or cook. Every time he stepped up he lost. Every time! All show but lacking at top level. Minter at least won his title and defended it.

Hagler didn't duck him which we've proved. Theres no evidence that he'd have a chance against hagler, let alone 'beat him easily' like you said

Mintor beat a schlock fighter in Anteofermo and got murdered by Hagler a genuine world class fighter.. He was beaten 9 times and stopped 8 times.. It's ridiculous to compare a punching bag like Minter with a slick boxer like Graham who had more wins, fewer losses, a higher win ratio, and a higher KO ratio.

Graham beat World Championship caliber fighters like Vinny Pazienza, Lindell Holmes, and Ayub Kalule.. Kaylor was more the caliber of Alan Minter.

Hagler flat out ducked his mandatory challenger, Harol Graham.. Hag was stripped for not fighting him and didn't ask for an exception. So it was a pure duck.

The evidence that Graham would win is that Hagler looked really bad -- struggling with wild swinger Mugabi who great fighters like Terry Norris destroyed in less than a round taking Mugabi's only World Title -- a 154-pound title -- and Hagler was out-boxed by a rusted out Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff.

golden oldie wrote:So what some ( well one anyway ) are claiming is because Graham won the Euro Middle title in Feb 86, defended it in November 86, then LOST it in May 87, he somehow earned the right to fight Hagler?