BoxRec

Regarding my post about Calzaghe. Please remember being a good defensive boxer doesn't always mean a Witter, Graham type of boxer. Peter Buckley i think fought over 200 times and when he decided to become a journeyman ( his last 150 fights) he hardly took a solid shot.
Also if a boxer overwhelms an opponent with hardly a punch in response, does that not suggest he's also a good defensive boxer. Calzaghe fought really top level opponents many of whom could punch, and yes he took a few ( very few) solid shots from world class fighters, doesn't mean to say he was an average defensive boxer. I could argue he was a world class defensive boxer. Given the world title fights he had at a reasonably heavy weight I don't think Joe will have any health problems in later years.

Joe generally boxed overmatched importees. Same Naseem Hamed WBO model. They seemed intouchable because they were almost never in a 50/50 fight.

Autobarn wrote:

Stuarty30 wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:
Byron Mitchell put Calzaghe down heavy but to his credit his instinct was to come back swinging and he stopped him

I think salem put him down also. Flash knock down no problems

Hopkins put him down flash knock down

Jones Jr put him down and had him buzzed imo

Overall he had a good chin though. Hopkins and Roy was at the end of his career and I think his punch resistance was on the wane.

He’s not a defensive wizard or anything though. But he could throw a lot of punches in bunches and basically over whelm the opponents attack, so it kind of worked defensively also. If that makes sense. Very difficult to punch with calzaghe

Yeah Salem had him down. That was a horrible fight. He was a dirty bastard that guy.

disgusting fight. Joe could be brilliant but he could get dragged down by a good spoiler like Salem and Starie and Bika and and...

Think this was the first fight televised must after I’d subscribed to Sky Sports. Wasn’t Joe supposed to fight Brian Magee, pulled out with bad hands and this was his next fight?

Really hated the Network of obscure, fringe world class opponents that would get brought in.

I instantly thought of the Bika fight as soon as I remembered this debacle. Awful fights.

Barry McGuigan had a good defence; he was renowned for his ability to slip punches while applying real pressure. Joe Bugner also had a good defence. He went in with a lot of bad dudes, including a pre-Manila Joe Frazier, and rarely got banged up.

Most ingle fighters with Herol Graham no1 Johnny Nelson was another fighter very hard to hit .

Randolph turpin ?

Lennox lewis has to be up there. He was always very careful

Except against mccall!

ThereByTheGrace wrote:Except against mccall!

And rachman and bruno

Vincent stevenson wrote:

ThereByTheGrace wrote:Except against mccall!

And rachman and bruno

Suppose. But he usually was excellent defensively. But he did have the odd off night.

I think after the mcall ko he was more cautious than defensive minded. Until he was over confident against rachman. But i agree to an extent he was good defensively

Personally, I don't class a reflexes based, hands low defense as a good defensive fighter. For me defence is an art that should be beyond pure athleticism. RJJ was given plenty of "end of year" awards by Magazines about his defense, but give me Sweet Pea or BHop any day for defence.

So I like the Barry McGuigan call and the Ian Napa call. Steve Robinson had a great guard also, only Naz could really penetrate it. Damean Kelly was another for me.

At a lower level, James Hare.

stujones wrote:Personally, I don't class a reflexes based, hands low defense as a good defensive fighter. For me defence is an art that should be beyond pure athleticism. RJJ was given plenty of "end of year" awards by Magazines about his defense, but give me Sweet Pea or BHop any day for defence.

So I like the Barry McGuigan call and the Ian Napa call. Steve Robinson had a great guard also, only Naz could really penetrate it. Damean Kelly was another for me.

At a lower level, James Hare.

Great shout steve robinson

Thomas McDonagh

Cowdell is worth a mention.

I know it's about British fighters but I still want to mention PBF and Toney

Coco wrote:I know it's about British fighters but I still want to mention PBF and Toney

Yes - that's what I mean when I think of defensive fighters - technique over athleticism - No coach would ever teach a youngster the Naz defence.

stujones wrote:

Coco wrote:I know it's about British fighters but I still want to mention PBF and Toney

Yes - that's what I mean when I think of defensive fighters - technique over athleticism - No coach would ever teach a youngster the Naz defence.

Here's a point though. If you take the Naz or Rjj and give them someone like loche or some defensive master to train them to be defensive specialists, they would surely master it. It takes athleticism and reflexes to be able to master the timing, distance, slipping and rolling at the highest level. That's why I think the Ingle gym is a bit of a double edged sword.

Ian Napa is a good shout. Sweet Pea Whittaker worth a mention.

TheLeprechaun wrote:

stujones wrote:

Coco wrote:I know it's about British fighters but I still want to mention PBF and Toney

Yes - that's what I mean when I think of defensive fighters - technique over athleticism - No coach would ever teach a youngster the Naz defence.

Here's a point though. If you take the Naz or Rjj and give them someone like loche or some defensive master to train them to be defensive specialists, they would surely master it. It takes athleticism and reflexes to be able to master the timing, distance, slipping and rolling at the highest level. That's why I think the Ingle gym is a bit of a double edged sword.

Yes, a valid point. However, with the low guard - reflexes only defence age can result in a dramatic problems with defence. Whereas PBF, Toney etc have fought on into their forties still incredibly hard to hit.

We surely need to also mention Ali in terms of a defensive master and he changed his style as a consequence of age.

That's pretty contradictory, Ali was absolutely a low guard reflexes defender. When he got older his defense was his granite chin. Though he definitely was not British.

paddy chavez wrote:Most ingle fighters with Herol Graham no1 Johnny Nelson was another fighter very hard to hit .

agreed on Johnny Nelson. His defensive skills were highly developed. He was exclusively defensive. The man just would not lead. That could lead to a masterclass of counter punching and defence, if the guy came straight at him. And also a lot of frustration - the first four rounds against Dominguez were annoying, because he wouldn’t do anything, but then picked up to box well the rest of the fight; he did nothing against Sellers until he landed that shot in Sellers’ eye, which fortunately ended the fight. He started very, very late, leading to a marrow decision over Cantatore in Italy. And I believe the fight with Petkovoc was very similar. And the absolute extreme is, the Carlos De Leon fight, in which Nelson basically neutralised the entire fight, leading to the infamous draw labelled “nil-nil”.

When Nelson was champion the Sky Sports crew were having kittens every fight until Johnny would start throwing punches, I recall. The Guillermo Jones draw was so bad that Nelson’s subsequent, final three defenses were away from home.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:That's pretty contradictory, Ali was absolutely a low guard reflexes defender. When he got older his defense was his granite chin. Though he definitely was not British.

I don't think it was entirely his granite chin as he got older. Great in the clinch and up close, nullified his opponents offense well. Some of his defensive moves were Klitchsko esque. As good as Ali's chin's was - if Foreman landed clean as many as he threw there is no way Ali would have withstood it. Foreman didn't catch him clean enough.

stujones wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:That's pretty contradictory, Ali was absolutely a low guard reflexes defender. When he got older his defense was his granite chin. Though he definitely was not British.

I don't think it was entirely his granite chin as he got older. Great in the clinch and up close, nullified his opponents offense well. Some of his defensive moves were Klitchsko esque. As good as Ali's chin's was - if Foreman landed clean as many as he threw there is no way Ali would have withstood it. Foreman didn't catch him clean enough.

He still had plenty of his reflexes then. He guarded his chin and gave up his body, it was still his toughness that beat foreman. Point remains, he was a speed, movement and reflex defender. Far more Jones than Whitaker, Floyd, Hopkins, etc..

Holding isn't defense.