BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 12:21 Ruiz had no punch at all.

How those knockouts have been scored by him then? A guy with no punch won't drop Holyfield.

What knockouts? Who was the best fighter that Ruiz ever stopped? The best I can come up with is an 11th round stoppage of Fres Oquendo.

Holyfield was shot by the time he fought Ruiz.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 13:47 What knockouts? Who was the best fighter that Ruiz ever stopped? The best I can come up with is an 11th round stoppage of Fres Oquendo.

Holyfield was shot by the time he fought Ruiz.

How being shot affects on chin? He also knocked out Tucker, dropped Kirk Johnson. I'm not telling, that he was a helluva puncher, but obviously he could punch. He was just not so good boxer to deliver punches, that's why he prefered to hug his opponents to win fights that way.

Tucker was at least 5 years past his prime, maybe more. You have to take the stage of a fighter's career in consideration.
I don't remember him knocking down Johnson. The only reason he won was because Johnson stupidly kept hitting him low until he got disqualified.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 14:00 I don't remember him knocking down Johnson.

Yeah, I a bit confused it. He rocked him with right hand, they clinched, Ruiz pushed him and he fell. Then Ruiz hit him to the back of the head sending him down. Both weren't scored as a knockdowns. But Ruiz rocked him with the right hand pretty good.

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 14:10

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 14:00 I don't remember him knocking down Johnson.

Yeah, I a bit confused it. He rocked him with right hand, they clinched, Ruiz pushed him and he fell. Then Ruiz hit him to the back of the head sending him down. Both weren't scored as a knockdowns. But Ruiz rocked him with the right hand pretty good.

The Kirk Johnson fight was a pretty dirty affair. Johnson landed a sh*t load of low blows, eventually being DQ'd about it, but Ruiz intentionally headbutted him at one point too when he was getting mad about all the low blows. I haven't watched it since it was on Live, but I remember that.

ruiz also shouldve been credit with a kd vs valuev, and he clearly hurt him, again it was that overhand right

defo not really a big puncher but exaggeration to say he had no power

John Ruiz is the most under rated heavyweight of the last 25 years

jamamb wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 19:12 ruiz also shouldve been credit with a kd vs valuev, and he clearly hurt him, again it was that overhand right

defo not really a big puncher but exaggeration to say he had no power

Take a look at at his fights against opponents of any note:

He stopped 39-year old Tony Tucker who had not been a contender for 5 years.
He stopped Fres Oquendo in 11 rounds.

Then the rest:
Darnell Nicholson
Jimmy Thunder
David Tua
Shot Evander Holfyield I
Shot Evander Holyfield II
Shot Evander Holyfield III
Kirk Johnson
Roy Jones
Andrew Golota
Hasim Rahman
Nicolai Valuev

Zero stoppages in those 11 fights. Scored a grand total of 1 knockdown.
So yes, I think it;s fair to say that the chances of him scoring a KO of Carnera is nil.

Perhaps you don't get it. His style is the main explanation for Ruiz not hurting his opponents much. If he landed a clean punch, it could have been relatively heavy. It's not "no punch at all". He most likely wouldn't have KOed Carnera, cause in this fight he would have been hugging with him all the way. But if he landed clean, he could have hurt Carnera, who had been down or stopped for not a single time.

Ruiz seems to have competed in a much stronger era than Carnera. I don't think Carnera would have had much chance of winning the title when Ruiz was active.

Also Holyfield was past his prime but I think even a badly faded Holyfield might beat Carnera. He was still good enough to beat Hasim Rahman.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑23 Aug 2018, 12:06 Ruiz seems to have competed in a much stronger era than Carnera. I don't think Carnera would have had much chance of winning the title when Ruiz was active.

That's arguable. Well, he emerged in the early 00s, when Lewis was reigning, but era after Lewis wasn't too strong.

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Aug 2018, 12:26

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑23 Aug 2018, 12:06 Ruiz seems to have competed in a much stronger era than Carnera. I don't think Carnera would have had much chance of winning the title when Ruiz was active.

That's arguable. Well, he emerged in the early 00s, when Lewis was reigning, but era after Lewis wasn't too strong.

Carnera couldn't have won a WBS title title when Ruiz was active? Well, if he would have fought Ruiz when Ruiz had a paper title he would have won one.

Interesting that Cojimar thinks that Ruiz fought in a much stronger era. Oh that's right, the more recent era is always better.

Boy, Ruiz sure was going up against Murderers row here.
Also interesing that Cojimar is always bring up the all important "weight advantage" when a more modern fighter is bigger.
Yet strangely, no mention of Carnera's 30 pound weight advantage.

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Aug 2018, 11:28 Perhaps you don't get it. His style is the main explanation for Ruiz not hurting his opponents much. If he landed a clean punch, it could have been relatively heavy. It's not "no punch at all". He most likely wouldn't have KOed Carnera, cause in this fight he would have been hugging with him all the way. But if he landed clean, he could have hurt Carnera, who had been down or stopped for not a single time.

Really? He had good power just didn't use it. But if he did, look out. We know that even though it virtually never happened.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Aug 2018, 15:41

DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Aug 2018, 11:28 Perhaps you don't get it. His style is the main explanation for Ruiz not hurting his opponents much. If he landed a clean punch, it could have been relatively heavy. It's not "no punch at all". He most likely wouldn't have KOed Carnera, cause in this fight he would have been hugging with him all the way. But if he landed clean, he could have hurt Carnera, who had been down or stopped for not a single time.

Really? He had good power just didn't use it. But if he did, look out. We know that even though it virtually never happened.

It was not enough for being good, but it was decent, I'd say.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 21:08 John Ruiz is the most under rated heavyweight of the last 25 years

hes defo underrated i think, prob because his style was so ugly and he didnt look good on the eye. not saying hes an atg or anything close, but better then a lot give credit for

jamamb wrote: ↑23 Aug 2018, 16:46

tiny_acres wrote: ↑22 Aug 2018, 21:08 John Ruiz is the most under rated heavyweight of the last 25 years

hes defo underrated i think, prob because his style was so ugly and he didnt look good on the eye. not saying hes an atg or anything close, but better then a lot give credit for

yes sir

Maybe if we just knew what we are supposed to be giving him credit for....

Was it giving Danell Nicholson all that he could handle?
The big win (split decision) over the legendary Jimmy Thunder?
Going the distance against Roy Jones?
Lasting almost 20 seconds against David Tua?

So much to choose from.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Aug 2018, 10:54 Maybe if we just knew what we are supposed to be giving him credit for....

Was it giving Danell Nicholson all that he could handle?
The big win (split decision) over the legendary Jimmy Thunder?
Going the distance against Roy Jones?
Lasting almost 20 seconds against David Tua?

So much to choose from.

I mean he took like 3 or 4 punches from Tua. A lesser man may well have been felled by that 1st shot he took

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Aug 2018, 10:54 Maybe if we just knew what we are supposed to be giving him credit for....

Was it giving Danell Nicholson all that he could handle?
The big win (split decision) over the legendary Jimmy Thunder?
Going the distance against Roy Jones?
Lasting almost 20 seconds against David Tua?

So much to choose from.

Cannot believe people have been bringing up that Tony Tucker fight. Tucker was a dead body. A bloated, spaced out Tucker had shown up in the UK and been blasted in 2 rounds by Herbie Hide before Ruiz feasted on his remains--and still Tucker nearly knocked Ruiz out!!

Without Don King and the WBA bringing Ruiz back into title contention every time he got beaten up, he would have disappeared a lot earlier. Without Don King and the WBA, he would have been tossed out of a lot of fights for his antics. A mauler, not a boxer, a cheater, and absolutely horrible to watch.

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑24 Aug 2018, 16:32

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Aug 2018, 10:54 Maybe if we just knew what we are supposed to be giving him credit for....

Was it giving Danell Nicholson all that he could handle?
The big win (split decision) over the legendary Jimmy Thunder?
Going the distance against Roy Jones?
Lasting almost 20 seconds against David Tua?

So much to choose from.

Cannot believe people have been bringing up that Tony Tucker fight. Tucker was a dead body. A bloated, spaced out Tucker had shown up in the UK and been blasted in 2 rounds by Herbie Hide before Ruiz feasted on his remains--and still Tucker nearly knocked Ruiz out!!

Without Don King and the WBA bringing Ruiz back into title contention every time he got beaten up, he would have disappeared a lot earlier. Without Don King and the WBA, he would have been tossed out of a lot of fights for his antics. A mauler, not a boxer, a cheater, and absolutely horrible to watch.

Yeah. And if Lennox had chosen him instead of more notable for that moment opponents, Ruiz could have never established himself on the higher level.

ya, because thats his entire career right there

DrDuke wrote: ↑24 Aug 2018, 16:39

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑24 Aug 2018, 16:32

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Aug 2018, 10:54 Maybe if we just knew what we are supposed to be giving him credit for....

Was it giving Danell Nicholson all that he could handle?
The big win (split decision) over the legendary Jimmy Thunder?
Going the distance against Roy Jones?
Lasting almost 20 seconds against David Tua?

So much to choose from.

Cannot believe people have been bringing up that Tony Tucker fight. Tucker was a dead body. A bloated, spaced out Tucker had shown up in the UK and been blasted in 2 rounds by Herbie Hide before Ruiz feasted on his remains--and still Tucker nearly knocked Ruiz out!!

Without Don King and the WBA bringing Ruiz back into title contention every time he got beaten up, he would have disappeared a lot earlier. Without Don King and the WBA, he would have been tossed out of a lot of fights for his antics. A mauler, not a boxer, a cheater, and absolutely horrible to watch.

Yeah. And if Lennox had chosen him instead of more notable for that moment opponents, Ruiz could have never established himself on the higher level.

Exactly. Because it wouldn't have been a losing 12 round maul versus Lewis, which would give King and the WBAndits room to bring Ruiz back again and again. Lewis would have easily knocked him out, probably in 2 rounds, probably in a fashion similar to Frans Botha, and instantly scrubbed him from the scene. In hindsight, it's a great shame Lewis didn't cooperate with the WBA and just bash their boy Ruiz, and then make that voluntary cash grab versus Michael Grant, instead of the pointless low interest Botha defence.

That being said, God only knows what King and the WBA would have done had that happened. We may have been treated to a Larry Donald, or worse, Henry Akinwande WBA second division "world title" reign. King wanted in the picture and at that time he had the sway to do it. Maybe Ruiz or similar was unavoidable.

I think guys like Tua and Akinwande could have been lineal champs in the 1930s