Haye-Thompson spoiler

JimStone · Post by **JimStone** » 11 Sep 2004, 07:55

Well done Carl.

A great learning fight for Haye, I'm glad he took it.
Only those totally ignorant in physiology or/and combat sports would even contemplate writing him off as a serious World Championship (big 3) prospect.

Haye - because of his self-belief that he would take Thompson out - unleashed a constant bombardment of powershots during rounds 1, 2 & 3. It's not realistic for a 14 stone bloke to be able to sustain that. In his eagerness to dispatch the CAT he failed to pace himself. He'll go back to the gym a wiser man.

For some reason many people have the belief that as soon as a fighter gets kayoed he's finished. What a load of shite that theory is (e.g. Lennox).

Haye is setting a great example to others, nobody who wants boxing to thrive will slag him off too much. Losing your "0" is no big deal when you're a relative novice. You learn the game by facing guys better than yourself, not by knocking over stiffs. Somewhere along the line this seems to have been forgotton.

A round of applause to David Haye for having the stones to take risks and learn boxing the proper way.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 11 Sep 2004, 08:16

As Goods mentioned earlier: you could get 7/2 on Thompson (who had a history of hanging in there and winning), 3/1 on the unbeaten Dave Stewart (Vanzie's shot, all his recent fights have been struggles), and 2/1 on Wayne Alexander (a natural puncher who had trained hard).
The bookies were giving it away.

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 11 Sep 2004, 08:26

Greenberg on at 2.45

Haye on at 3.50

BBC 1

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 11 Sep 2004, 09:11

Nice one Carl!...

... I can't belive how so many people wrote Carl Thompson off against Haye... Carl has always been underrated and never given his due and while he's past his best his power is still there and he is a top world class puncher and this along with the fact that he is one of the bravest fighters I know always gave him a good chance. I said all along that if Carl could get past the first 3 or 4 rounds it'd be his fight. Haye is starting to remind me a bit of Errol Christe... all the tools seem to be there but he's lacking that durabilty that he'd need to go the whole way I think. But great win for the Cat!... hopefully he can get a big fight with someone now and really cash in on his indian Summer! 8) .

Deserter · Post by **Deserter** » 11 Sep 2004, 09:40

FlawedGenius wrote:Well done Carl.

A great learning fight for Haye, I'm glad he took it.
Only those totally ignorant in physiology or/and combat sports would even contemplate writing him off as a serious World Championship (big 3) prospect.

Haye - because of his self-belief that he would take Thompson out - unleashed a constant bombardment of powershots during rounds 1, 2 & 3. It's not realistic for a 14 stone bloke to be able to sustain that. In his eagerness to dispatch the CAT he failed to pace himself. He'll go back to the gym a wiser man.

For some reason many people have the belief that as soon as a fighter gets kayoed he's finished. What a load of shite that theory is (e.g. Lennox).

Haye is setting a great example to others, nobody who wants boxing to thrive will slag him off too much. Losing your "0" is no big deal when you're a relative novice. You learn the game by facing guys better than yourself, not by knocking over stiffs. Somewhere along the line this seems to have been forgotton.

A round of applause to David Haye for having the stones to take risks and learn boxing the proper way.

Good post. Agree completely.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 11 Sep 2004, 09:42

silkov wrote:Nice one Carl!... ... I can't belive how so many people wrote Carl Thompson off against Haye... Carl has always been underrated and never given his due and while he's past his best his power is still there and he is a top world class puncher and this along with the fact that he is one of the bravest fighters I know always gave him a good chance. I said all along that if Carl could get past the first 3 or 4 rounds it'd be his fight. Haye is starting to remind me a bit of Errol Christe... all the tools seem to be there but he's lacking that durabilty that he'd need to go the whole way I think. But great win for the Cat!... hopefully he can get a big fight with someone now and really cash in on his indian Summer! 8) .

Indeed. Christie was finding it all so easy until Kaylor had the bottle to fight back. Christie just couldn't handle it (and was never the same). I've said it before and I'll say it again: a run of quick knockouts is the worst preparation going into a big fight. If Haye had been put in with someone like Ismael Abdoul in a good 10-rounder prior to Thompson, he would have stood a much better chance last night.
Instead, he got in three rounds against 39-year-old Arthur Williams.

E · Post by E » 11 Sep 2004, 10:47

Matchfixer wrote:
I agree. Hopefully Haye can address his faults and come back. His skills remain after all.

And to whoever referred to these next points...

Why would Thompson need to fight Enzo Mac???

Is there actually any evidence about Haye not training properly? I don't believe it. (Don't say because he got beaten last night)

Point 1: Thompson doesn't need to fight Maccanirelli, but it would be a good fight.

Point 2: David has never been a good trainer, and people who train with him say this. And for evidence, look today at the fight on BBC and see how knackered David gets. A hard trainer would never get so tired in a fight he was dominating.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 11 Sep 2004, 11:40

well, just seen it

1) owe both fighters an apology. Thought it would be an embarrassment. It wasn't. It was a good fight

2) What can you say about CT? Great performance. Took the blows and came back.

3) Haye was knackered from 1.5mins of the 2nd round. Shame on him! He is a pro fighter. Shame on his trainers. Shame on his corner for not telling him to back off when it was obvious he had shot his bolt. He will come back, but I am not sure what else he can do.

4) Hats off to Terry O Connor who could have been conned into stopping the fight at one point in the 2nd, but gave CT the benefit of the doubt

Top refereeing.

Slapsie

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 11 Sep 2004, 11:42

Just seen the fight and it is very strange. Haye is certainly the far superior boxer but needs to get his stamina and pacing of fights sorted.

Think the fight should have been stopped at the end of the first and in the second but there you go.

E · Post by E » 11 Sep 2004, 11:43

Did that look like he trained properly? Knackered after two rounds of effectively hitting a heavy bag.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 11 Sep 2004, 11:44

also have to say, Haye's post fight interview was class. Very mature. Perhaps he can transfer that to his fighting style

Slapsie

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 11 Sep 2004, 11:56

E wrote:Did that look like he trained properly? Knackered after two rounds of effectively hitting a heavy bag.

Yesterday, you tipped him to win in three on the Current Scene forum. Said he was a "great prospect who has no problem with taking risks."
Today, he doesn't train properly and has a soft chin...

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:04

I agree with Flawed Genius, at least Haye got exposed against a reasonable operator i mean we have seen similar prospects lose to much worse fighters than Thompson. Haye's conditioning just didn't seem there, as soon as he realised he wasn't going to KO Thompson he seemed to go into mental shutdown and looked physically drained, i admire Thompson's class at the end of the fight especially after the way Haye had been talking before the fight, he didn't resort to any underhand tactics and simply spoke honestly and with a wry smile of experience on his face.

As for Haye well...i know it's early but i think he has been exposed as a fighter who will not win the real top level World honours like he was predicting beforehand. But i think that British, Commonwealth and possibly European honours are within his reach IF he changes his training team...and then who knows what else?

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:04

I think when Haye was talking about value for money that was a bit of a double standard. If he wanted to give fans value he would have trained for more than a two round fight.

I couldn't believe how thompson could take so many shots and come back. You can just tell Haye is a big hitter- his punching power wasn't exposed last night- its just that carl is a true warrior. I actually think that haye would have been incapable of stopping him in that first round because thompson would have fired back regardless, david would have to have unloaded a barrage of flush power punches and taken carl's legs away, because as long as carl was on his feet he would have come surging back.

serious, fundamental problem for haye though, this poor stamina. He may just naturally not have much. He probably needs to train harder. Whichever it is though, he needs to sort it out or, like someone else mentioned, his career will mirror exactly Wlad Klitschko's. no way he can defeat tough world class fighters without sorting it.

A sorry state of affairs. we'll have to wait and see. I don't hold much hope to be honest, and i'm pretty gutted.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:08

It was pretty similar to Klitschko's demise against Brewster, i know it is a cliche but you can't stress the importance of keeping a tight guard and that LEFT HAND UP!! It seems endemic amongst BBC fighters, Froch lazily waves his left by his waist and Greenberg did earlier against the Russian guy...watch how many flush jabs Haye took on the chin because of it and then the eventual right hands over the top. Less flash and more substance needed, keep the left hand up

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:10

I too am a big fan of David Haye.
But the facts speak for themselves, from the off he telegraphed everything, got caught by jabs..and that was the first round and a half.

This was a million miles from his last performance, and not just the result..

I will admit I was very happy for Carl, but Haye will be back.
Like he said in the interview later, all the greats have lossed.
Joe Louis against Max Schmeling 1, early losses are not the end of a career.

Well done Carl for the win, and well done David for having the bottle to take the fight.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:17

I wonder what Macarinelli will have to say about this fight? I don't think he can say a lot to be honest because he isn't fighting in this level of opposition yet and has had more fights...he can happily defend his WBUseless title against guys like Jesper Kritiansen

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:23

David Haye will not find it hard to get matched now though.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:24

Is that a good or bad thing though?

JimStone · Post by **JimStone** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:30

I'll say it again. Haye is an 11 fight novice. Some of you guys are talking like losing a 'learning fight' is the end of the World.

You develop your stamina, learn how to pace a fight, realise you can't bang everyone out of the ring etc over TIME. Relax.

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 11 Sep 2004, 12:33

FlawedGenius wrote:I'll say it again. Haye is an 11 fight novice. Some of you guys are talking like losing a 'learning fight' is the end of the World.

You develop your stamina, learn how to pace a fight, realise you can't bang everyone out of the ring etc over TIME. Relax.

Exactly. Better he learnt this now. Just hope he doesn't have natural stamina problems and that it was only inexperience through pacing.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 11 Sep 2004, 13:59

Haye can come back from this, he can be stopped but we all knew that going in.
I think more than anything that Thompson simply knew too much for him.
Haye showed habits of the amateur style in there and needs to go back to the drawing board, but he is a talented guy so to say his career is cut short already is a little premature to my mind.
He does need someone to show him how to use his left better though, it was all the right last night and once Thompson spotted this and adjusted he wasn't getting hit anymore.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 11 Sep 2004, 14:06

Hats off to both guys afterwards, if I was Haye I would have certainly been a little p'd off that the towel was thrown in. There was only a few seconds left in the round and had Haye had the minute who knows - as he certainly had the power to hurt Carl. Whether he privately feels this I don't know, but class for not showing it out publicaly.

As for the fight, as Flawed correctly said, Haye will learn so much from this - its still a major tent, losing to a 40 year old (even though he is a freak - and I mean that positively) will not do his appeal much good and we all know he will be out of a TV deal come April. It would have been nice if the Haye would have found out his weakeness but still got away with a W (like the Mock fight exposed some).

Natural Stamina is his one major weakness, in the limited time I have seen him I have seen that exposed twice as an amateur (one on Sky and one vs Solis) and now vs Thompson. Obviously, there is some defences weaknesses aswell.

I wonder if Haye secretly feared Williams more so than Thompson. In many peoples opinion Thompson was lucky vs Rothmann and was even rocked by Paul Bonson - these opinions may have had a bearing before and during this fight. I just think that even at the start of this contest, Haye didn't have the seem fear of Thompson as he did Williams, which resulted in a poorer concentration. Perhaps this also reflected in his training? Haye hurt Williams in the first, but stayed away from going for the kill - but not this time.

Haye will come from this an improved fighter and his time will come, but there is plenty of weaknesses there that need to be worked on and tested (in a fight) before we can truly say how far he will go.

As for Thompson, whilst I don't think this fight will have a great effect on his world ranking, it still shows that he can fight at the highest level and that his performance vs Rothman wasn't entirely down to Rothman getting cocky. Thompson should be looking at a proper world title fight, Kelvin Davis is relatively untested and Thompson should go for him - even if he is unsuccessful, potential match ups with Hobson, Maccrinelli and Haye again will create a buzz and earn him some good dough.

Jedi Knight · Post by **Jedi Knight** » 11 Sep 2004, 16:17

Matchfixer wrote:
FlawedGenius wrote:I'll say it again. Haye is an 11 fight novice. Some of you guys are talking like losing a 'learning fight' is the end of the World.

You develop your stamina, learn how to pace a fight, realise you can't bang everyone out of the ring etc over TIME. Relax.
Exactly. Better he learnt this now. Just hope he doesn't have natural stamina problems and that it was only inexperience through pacing.

Totally agree with both of you. I think some of the people on here should get a job with the press. They too are good at building a fighter up and then as soon as they loose they knock em down again.
The word I'm looking for is "fickle" fight fans....

Haye probably learned more in that fight than most over his other one sided fights.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 11 Sep 2004, 18:01

Jedi Knight wrote:
Matchfixer wrote:
FlawedGenius wrote:I'll say it again. Haye is an 11 fight novice. Some of you guys are talking like losing a 'learning fight' is the end of the World.

You develop your stamina, learn how to pace a fight, realise you can't bang everyone out of the ring etc over TIME. Relax.
Exactly. Better he learnt this now. Just hope he doesn't have natural stamina problems and that it was only inexperience through pacing.
Totally agree with both of you. I think some of the people on here should get a job with the press. They too are good at building a fighter up and then as soon as they loose they knock em down again.
The word I'm looking for is "fickle" fight fans....

It's true that its early days to write Haye off but at the same time he has shown flaws which will not be easy to mend... a lack of durability is something which can not be overcome completely.

Haye probably learned more in that fight than most over his other one sided fights.