BoxRec

Frankly, I don't know many top non-black fighters in Haymon stable. The ones coming to mind:

Beterbiev - 1 fight in 2017
Danny - 1 fight
Derevo - 2 fights

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:43 Frankly, I don't know many top non-black fighters in Haymon stable. The ones coming to mind:

Beterbiev - 1 fight in 2017
Danny - 1 fight
Derevo - 2 fights

Your point about race is irrelevant.

Badhusker wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:56

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:43 Frankly, I don't know many top non-black fighters in Haymon stable. The ones coming to mind:

Beterbiev - 1 fight in 2017
Danny - 1 fight
Derevo - 2 fights

Your point about race is irrelevant.

Sure. Haymon and his supporters are so race neutral

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 15:09

Badhusker wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:56

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:43 Frankly, I don't know many top non-black fighters in Haymon stable. The ones coming to mind:

Beterbiev - 1 fight in 2017
Danny - 1 fight
Derevo - 2 fights

Your point about race is irrelevant.

Sure. Haymon and his supporters are so race neutral

You made two comments that are racist that have nothing to do with the thread. And you accuse others about not being race neutral?
Grow up.
I think it's time to take another break. Too many annoying posters.

Badhusker wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 10:07 To me it is very clear what he said. Tank isn't afraid of Loma, and wants to fight him. Floyd wants him to wait until he can make some big money in the fight. One thing Floyd doesn't say is that Tank is too green at the moment for Loma. It is smart to hold Tank back at this point, like it or not. When you enter the ring, you never know if it will be your last fight, and even if not, it is smart to earn what you can, while you can.

Say what you want about Floyd, but he knows like no other about the business side of boxing. His points about how little Loma is making is valid. A top pfp guy should make twice or more what Loma is making. I bet reading this burns Arum's ass. I always thought Arum should have paid Pacquiao more, but then again Pac always gave away about half of his purse, so whatever.

floyd also mentions that loma will be getting older and that if they let it marinate hed be like 36 or 37 when they fight while tank will be still youngish. if its just about money why even mention that. just sounds like 'we want our chances to get better so well wait till hes old'.

this is just simple risk reward stuff really. hold out on the tough opponent but no problems with the lesser guys, even for less money. might be smart business given how awful boxing fans can be when it comes to being negative about losses but the approach certainly includes waiting it out to reduce the risk from an older boxer.

tanks an excellent talent and if not loma i hope at least hell be fighting the next best guys

oh and btw if race is a factor when it comes to haymon its by far more towards ppl over the top hating against him rather then being for him. the amount of hate him and many of his fighters get is very disproportionate. funny enough the eastern euro fighters he has seem to get spared the same contempt. funny how that works.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:28

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:00 Yeah, white Haymon fighters are getting lots of good fights

If Loma was with Haymon, he would've had 1 fight in 2017 instead of 3.

You're exaggerating the situation to fulfil your agenda

Gary Russell doesn't get the fights he deserves either.... Haymon doesn't give a crap about his fighters... Russell lost to Lomachenko---and that's the only fight he's ever lost---and he's been kicked down stairs ever since.... Haymon also "advises" Selby... Frampton... and Santa Cruz... Apparently his advice is: "Don't fight Gary Russell."

Kalan wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 21:27

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:28

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 14:00 Yeah, white Haymon fighters are getting lots of good fights

If Loma was with Haymon, he would've had 1 fight in 2017 instead of 3.

You're exaggerating the situation to fulfil your agenda

Gary Russell doesn't get the fights he deserves either.... Haymon doesn't give a crap about his fighters... Russell lost to Lomachenko---and that's the only fight he's ever lost---and he's been kicked down stairs ever since.... Haymon also "advises" Selby... Frampton... and Santa Cruz... Apparently his advice is: "Don't fight Gary Russell."

It's not as simple as that, because someone like Beterbiev receives a $250K guarantee regardless as to whomever he faces. You need to also pay attention to the opinions articulated by Haymon's fighters.

I could provide tonnes of reasons why no fighter has ever criticised Haymon.

I'm positive Beterbiev would rather fight 10 times in a year and get 25K each -- than fight 1 time and rust out... Look how many fights Mike Tyson had in his first 18 months as a pro---28 and the World Title---after busting in the Olympic Trials...

Cus and Jacobs knew Mike had talent and it only needed to be nurtured and developed with a lot of fights... and so did the guys who took over when they died in untimely fashion... Floyd Patterson wasn't the best Heavyweight of the 1950's but he was one of the best managed and matched... He got the World Title when he was 21, in the wake of over 30 fights.

Badhusker wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 10:07 To me it is very clear what he said. Tank isn't afraid of Loma, and wants to fight him. Floyd wants him to wait until he can make some big money in the fight. One thing Floyd doesn't say is that Tank is too green at the moment for Loma. It is smart to hold Tank back at this point, like it or not. When you enter the ring, you never know if it will be your last fight, and even if not, it is smart to earn what you can, while you can.

Say what you want about Floyd, but he knows like no other about the business side of boxing. His points about how little Loma is making is valid. A top pfp guy should make twice or more what Loma is making. I bet reading this burns Arum's ass. I always thought Arum should have paid Pacquiao more, but then again Pac always gave away about half of his purse, so whatever.

Floyd can criticize Loma all that he wants but Loma just made over a million dollars in his 11th bout. That's far more than Floyd was earning in his 11th bout back in the day. Floyd's 11th bout was a huge 6 rounder with a guy named Jesus Chavez that nobody saw. What did Floyd make for that one? 20k? 25 at the most?

Loma is carving his own way right now. No one that I can recall have broken into the sport like this demanding the toughest fights right away. Demanding attention and getting it. Plus top P4P doesn't mean tops box office attraction so I'm not sure where Floyd is coming from on that one. Top box office attraction takes a lot more time than Loma has put in. I'm sure he'll get there as even non boxing fans are talking to me about the guy right now.

jamamb wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 19:10

Badhusker wrote: ↑31 Dec 2017, 10:07 To me it is very clear what he said. Tank isn't afraid of Loma, and wants to fight him. Floyd wants him to wait until he can make some big money in the fight. One thing Floyd doesn't say is that Tank is too green at the moment for Loma. It is smart to hold Tank back at this point, like it or not. When you enter the ring, you never know if it will be your last fight, and even if not, it is smart to earn what you can, while you can.

Say what you want about Floyd, but he knows like no other about the business side of boxing. His points about how little Loma is making is valid. A top pfp guy should make twice or more what Loma is making. I bet reading this burns Arum's ass. I always thought Arum should have paid Pacquiao more, but then again Pac always gave away about half of his purse, so whatever.

floyd also mentions that loma will be getting older and that if they let it marinate hed be like 36 or 37 when they fight while tank will be still youngish. if its just about money why even mention that. just sounds like 'we want our chances to get better so well wait till hes old'.

this is just simple risk reward stuff really. hold out on the tough opponent but no problems with the lesser guys, even for less money. might be smart business given how awful boxing fans can be when it comes to being negative about losses but the approach certainly includes waiting it out to reduce the risk from an older boxer.

tanks an excellent talent and if not loma i hope at least hell be fighting the next best guys

Sums up why boxing sucks so much these days. Too few of the top guys are willing to take big risks.

yes 'smart business' (making risk vs reward most optimal) for a given fighter is often at odds with what fans want

Question someone needs to ask Floyd:

If the money isn't there for Davis to fight Lomachenko, who IS the money there for?

With his lack of discipline causing him to miss weight/forcing him to move up to a higher weight than he should really be fighting at, I can see a lesser fighter than Loma spanking his ass sometime in the next 2 years anyway. He absolutely reeks of being Broner 2.0.

Some far more attractive fights out there for Loma. He wouldn't get credit for schooling a green/undisciplined Davis anyway.

..too much focus on money, no wonder knowing who the comments are coming from..am I the only one tired of these "marinating" tactics and losing interest..

greg wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 10:08 ..too much focus on money, no wonder knowing who the comments are coming from..am I the only one tired of these "marinating" tactics and losing interest..

"marinating" is just to gatehr more interest for PPV..

Loma vs. Davis is not PPV. it doesn't need marinating. To answer your question. I am sick of it.

Why doesn't Mayweather promote the fight instead. Give his boxer a good payday and pay Loma $2m ..

greg wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 10:08 ..too much focus on money, no wonder knowing who the comments are coming from..am I the only one tired of these "marinating" tactics and losing interest..

It's not even a fight worth marinating. Who exactly is Gervonta Davis, anyway? He's barely past prospect status. It's not like he's just beat the equivalent of De La Hoya and become the money man of his division, earning the leverage to ask Lomachenko to jump through hoops or build his reputation first...

He's (supposedly) on his way to the top. If you want to actually get there, that means you have to go through whoever is at the top right now, or at the very least eclipse their performances in the ring. Davis is doing neither.

Kalan wrote: ↑01 Jan 2018, 00:23 I'm positive Beterbiev would rather fight 10 times in a year and get 25K each -- than fight 1 time and rust out..

The reason for a lot of Beterbiev's inactivity was due to an injured shoulder that kept him on the sidelines for a year.

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 10:01 Question someone needs to ask Floyd:

If the money isn't there for Davis to fight Lomachenko, who IS the money there for?

Gervonta Davis allegedly has a net worth of $2m and he apparently earned $600K to face Francisco Fonseca. He would have earned more than that for the Liam Walsh fight. So he’s almost certainly going to expect a much bigger payday than he received for any of his previous fights in order to face Lomachenko.

Guillermo Rigondeaux was only paid $400K to compensate him for his loss against Vasyl Lomachenko. Nicholas Walters only received $300K against Hi-Tech. Similarly, Gary Russell Jr. received $421K.

If you're Gervonta Davis and you’re considered a huge underdog against Vasyl Lomachenko, are you going to be willing to take a pay cut in order to satisfy the demands of fight fans? That’s a serious question!

Put it this way, if your boss demanded that you to work 30 extra hours this week, but would be forced to receive 40% less than your usual weekly pay for your normal working hours, would you do it, simply because other people wanted you to?

Boxers are known as “PRIZE fighters” not “PRIDE fighters”… and Top Rank has never attempted to make the fight between Lomachenko and Davis.

jamamb wrote: ↑01 Jan 2018, 21:58 yes 'smart business' (making risk vs reward most optimal) for a given fighter is often at odds with what fans want

Agreed.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 10:50

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 10:01 Question someone needs to ask Floyd:

If the money isn't there for Davis to fight Lomachenko, who IS the money there for?

With his lack of discipline causing him to miss weight/forcing him to move up to a higher weight than he should really be fighting at, I can see a lesser fighter than Loma spanking his ass sometime in the next 2 years anyway. He absolutely reeks of being Broner 2.0.

Some far more attractive fights out there for Loma. He wouldn't get credit for schooling a green/undisciplined Davis anyway.

Gervonta Davis allegedly has a net worth of $2m and he apparently earned $600K to face Francisco Fonseca. He would have earned more than that for the Liam Walsh fight. So he’s almost certainly going to expect a much bigger payday than he received for any of his previous fights in order to face Lomachenko.

Guillermo Rigondeaux was only paid $400K to compensate him for his loss against Vasyl Lomachenko. Nicholas Walters only received $300K against Hi-Tech. Similarly, Gary Russell Jr. received $421K.

If you're Gervonta Davis and you’re considered a huge underdog against Vasyl Lomachenko, are you going to be willing to take a pay cut in order to satisfy the demands of fight fans? That’s a serious question!

Put it this way, if your boss demanded that you to work 30 extra hours this week, but would be forced to receive 40% less than your usual weekly pay for your normal working hours, would you do it, simply because other people wanted you to?

Boxers are known as “PRIZE fighters” not “PRIDE fighters”… and Top Rank has never attempted to make the fight between Lomachenko and Davis.

I really couldn't give a hoot who's earned what in the past. Unless a percentage is going to find it's way into my bank account...

I do take your point though. But talking in terms Floyd would understand, there's an a side and a b side here. The b side doesn't get to dictate terms. Winning raises your profile considerably. There's your payment. You either want that chance, or you don't.

Using the work analogy, I'll counter your point with this:

If my boss asks me to work 60 hours next week instead of 40, for no extra pay, but if I achieve a predetermined target I get a written guarantee of a promotion which doubles my salary from that point forward, if I believe that target is achievable, even if it's difficult, damn right I agree to do the work! I'd work the entire week for no pay at all with that opportunity in front of me!

The only reason I refuse that, is if I don't think I'm good enough to get the job done.

Sometimes you have to take the short money, for the opportunity to earn big in the future. If you don't have the mentality to take that risk, do you even belong in a boxing ring?

How much was Floyd paid, to fight Gennaro Hernandez, or Diego Corrales?

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 11:28

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 10:50

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 10:01 Question someone needs to ask Floyd:

If the money isn't there for Davis to fight Lomachenko, who IS the money there for?

With his lack of discipline causing him to miss weight/forcing him to move up to a higher weight than he should really be fighting at, I can see a lesser fighter than Loma spanking his ass sometime in the next 2 years anyway. He absolutely reeks of being Broner 2.0.

Some far more attractive fights out there for Loma. He wouldn't get credit for schooling a green/undisciplined Davis anyway.

Gervonta Davis allegedly has a net worth of $2m and he apparently earned $600K to face Francisco Fonseca. He would have earned more than that for the Liam Walsh fight. So he’s almost certainly going to expect a much bigger payday than he received for any of his previous fights in order to face Lomachenko.

Guillermo Rigondeaux was only paid $400K to compensate him for his loss against Vasyl Lomachenko. Nicholas Walters only received $300K against Hi-Tech. Similarly, Gary Russell Jr. received $421K.

If you're Gervonta Davis and you’re considered a huge underdog against Vasyl Lomachenko, are you going to be willing to take a pay cut in order to satisfy the demands of fight fans? That’s a serious question!

Put it this way, if your boss demanded that you to work 30 extra hours this week, but would be forced to receive 40% less than your usual weekly pay for your normal working hours, would you do it, simply because other people wanted you to?

Boxers are known as “PRIZE fighters” not “PRIDE fighters”… and Top Rank has never attempted to make the fight between Lomachenko and Davis.

I really couldn't give a hoot who's earned what in the past. Unless a percentage is going to find it's way into my bank account...

I do take your point though. But talking in terms Floyd would understand, there's an a side and a b side here. The b side doesn't get to dictate terms. Winning raises your profile considerably. There's your payment. You either want that chance, or you don't.

Using the work analogy, I'll counter your point with this:

If my boss asks me to work 60 hours next week instead of 40, for no extra pay, but if I achieve a predetermined target I get a written guarantee of a promotion which doubles my salary from that point forward, if I believe that target is achievable, even if it's difficult, damn right I agree to do the work! I'd work the entire week for no pay at all with that opportunity in front of me!

The only reason I refuse that, is if I don't think I'm good enough to get the job done.

Sometimes you have to take the short money, for the opportunity to earn big in the future. If you don't have the mentality to take that risk, do you even belong in a boxing ring?

How much was Floyd paid, to fight Gennaro Hernandez, or Diego Corrales?

I’m playing The Devil’s Advocate” here, since I don’t know enough about Gervonta Davis as a person to pretend to accurately anticipate his thought process in regards to this situation, so let’s simply consider the financials, coupled with the facts.

Bob Arum has never paid any of Lomachenko’s opponents more than $450K and Gervonta Davis earned $600K for his most recent outing against C-Level opposition.

Top Rank have never attempted to initiate talks with Mayweather Promotions about staging a bout between Lomachenko and Davis.

Unless I’m mistaken, neither Vasyl Lomachenko nor Gervonta Davis has headlined a PPV.

Therefore, why do people expect Gervonta Davis to take a pay cut and not Vasyl Lomachenko? Where is the money going to come from to meet the purse demands of both fighters?

The mythical situation that you’re proposing about Davis taking “the short money, for the opportunity to earn big in the future” does not exist, it cannot be measured and it should not be considered.

For the record, I believe that Mayweather was being promoted by Top Rank when he fought Genaro Hernandez and Diego Corrales. Floyd said that signing with Top Rank was the biggest mistake of his career, because he claims he wasn’t being paid his worth and that Bob Arum was earning far more from promoting bouts than he did.

Also, your question about Floyd’s paydays for the Genaro Hernandez and Diego Corrales fights are irrelevant, because those took place almost two decades ago.

What is being forgotten when the 600k payday is mentioned, is the fact that that happened as part of the Mayweather vs McGregor undercard. That's not a typical purse for Davis. It's an outlier.

Against Pedraza, Davis only earned 75k. Against Walsh, he probably didn't make a massive amount more than that (certainly nowhere near 600k). Floyd paid his own fighter, on his own undercard, far more than he was worth, and now is trying to use that figure to create a false economy.

No, Lomachenko wouldn't earn Davis 600k. No fight would. He's worth less than half that. Lomachenko WOULD give Davis his current highest available purse. It's not 600k, because there is no McGregor undercard to foot the bill.

And my point of what Floyd earned vs Hernandez and Corrales etc is very relevant. Not the actual amounts, but the fact that his outstanding run at 135 and below earned him very little financially (relatively speaking). But, had he not proven himself vs the best, would he have received the same opportunities later on, where he did get paid? Possibly not...

Young fighters these days seem incredibly short sighted, when they're stating what they think they're worth. Taking small money is the RIGHT thing to do, if it leads to big money later on. Unless your name is Anthony Joshua, millions don't just get handed to you on a plate.

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 12:59 What is being forgotten when the 600k payday is mentioned, is the fact that that happened as part of the Mayweather vs McGregor undercard. That's not a typical purse for Davis. It's an outlier.

Against Pedraza, Davis only earned 75k. Against Walsh, he probably didn't make a massive amount more than that (certainly nowhere near 600k). Floyd paid his own fighter, on his own undercard, far more than he was worth, and now is trying to use that figure to create a false economy.

No, Lomachenko wouldn't earn Davis 600k. No fight would. He's worth less than half that. Lomachenko WOULD give Davis his current highest available purse. It's not 600k, because there is no McGregor undercard to foot the bill.

And my point of what Floyd earned vs Hernandez and Corrales etc is very relevant. Not the actual amounts, but the fact that his outstanding run at 135 and below earned him very little financially (relatively speaking). But, had he not proven himself vs the best, would he have received the same opportunities later on, where he did get paid? Possibly not...

Young fighters these days seem incredibly short sighted, when they're stating what they think they're worth. Taking small money is the RIGHT thing to do, if it leads to big money later on. Unless your name is Anthony Joshua, millions don't just get handed to you on a plate.

Gervonta Davis was merely a challenger against Pedraza and had never previously held a world title in any weight class. So his payday would be expected to be small in that situation.

The Tank’s pay for the Walsh fight was never disclosed, but Queensberry Promotions were unwilling to proceed to purse bids, so they negotiated terms for the American to travel overseas to defend his titles on UK shores. So he would have likely earned a career-high payday for that fight.

In regards to the Francisco Fonseca fight, Davis earned $600K, but there’s no evidence to suggest that he was overpaid for that bout due to the May-Mac circus event. In fact, other Haymon affiliated fighters on losing streaks, such as Robert Guerrero, regularly earn ballpark paydays around the $1m mark.

For sure, welterweight fighters typically earn more than their 130lb counterparts, but the difference won’t be that great.

I guess we’ll find out for sure if my claims are true when Davis engages in his next fight during the first quarter of this year, because I’m pretty sure he’ll be commanding a payday that is on a par with the sums commanded by Guillermo Rigondeaux, Nicholas Walters and Gary Russell Jr. when they fought Vasyl Lomachenko.

Anyway, let’s get back to the point in hand, Top Rank has never attempted to initiate talks with Mayweather Promotions about staging a bout between Lomachenko and Davis… and I feel that it’s because Bob Arum refuses to pay the going rate for Haymon fighters.

They would definitely offer Davis 600K or more, because they offered Salido 700K. Not enough money is just a ducking excuse.

Davis' estimated net worth is between $1.5m to $2m

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 13:19 They would definitely offer Davis 600K or more, because they offered Salido 700K. Not enough money is just a ducking excuse.

How can someone be accused of “ducking” if an offer has never been proposed? Gervonta Davis has never been given the opportunity to reject a potential fight against Vasyl Lomachenko.

People are getting emotional about a fictional situation that bears no relation whatsoever to reality.

In terms of Top Ranks’ alleged $720K offer to Salido for him to engage in a rematch against Vasyl Lomachenko. I’m not sure if this claim has actually been verified by both sides. It’s not the first time the sincerity of Bob Arum’s words have been criticised by fighters holding a polar opposite opinion.

So we should only discuss the actual sums paid by Top Rank to those men that shared the ring with Vasyl Lomachenko.

Floyd knows that Davis is too green, and is aware of him being undisciplined for making weight. He is smart by holding Davis out of a fight with Loma until he matures some more. Loma was still in the amateurs when he was Davis's age, and probably a few years after.