BoxRec

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018, 17:48

Kalan wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018, 16:38 Right.... Wladimir would beat the little kid a lot easier than Buster Douglas did.

In the Douglas fight - at times Tyson looked like a little tyke trying to swipe a cigar away from his daddy.

If Wladimir tried to match the pace Douglas fought at in that fight he'd better be able to finish Mike before the 6th round or he might run into trouble.

And if he didn't (and he wouldn't) then it wouldn't be the same fight (and it wouldn't be)

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018, 18:26 Ali would've had a field day getting in Tyson's head.

dWd wrote: ↑19 Jan 2018, 19:35

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018, 18:26 Ali would've had a field day getting in Tyson's head.

Later on he would have yes, but not the prime 19, 20yr old fully focused Tyson.

Knucklez wrote: ↑19 Jan 2018, 04:24Wladimir was too scared to throw punches against Tyson Fury.

Against Mike Tyson he would be in the corner with his arms around his head, crying for his mummy.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018, 18:26 Ali would've had a field day getting in Tyson's head.

Kalan wrote: ↑16 Jan 2018, 03:10 Wrong style for Mike... I assume they're fighting at their peaks... Wladimir was too big, tall, strong, an fast for Tyson.... He would use the Lewis/Douglas tactic of bullying Tyson with his size and strength and beating the fukking shitt out of him.

Big, tall, fast, skilled guys DID beat Tyson... 218-pounders who stood 5'11" DIDN'T beat Wladimir.

It would be like Klitschko vs Mercer.... Mercer landed 5 power shots in the fight - less than one a round... But that wasn't a peak or a skilled Wladimir... Possibly the best Wladimir fought Pulev - and he dropped off a cliff after that fight.

Other fights that were instructive were Klitschko-Povetkin... Pov couldn't do a damned thing.... Klitschko vs the "White Tyson" Ruslan Chagaev.... which was ridiculously one sided.... Klitschko vs Ibragimov... who was very short with very quick hands, and beat Holyfield very easily - a guy who stomped the much younger Mike like he was a tyro.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Jan 2018, 05:05 This thread should be moved to the history forum section since it has zero relevance to boxing’s “current scene”, but I’ll submit my thoughts anyway…

It seems as though people are supremely confident that a prime version of Mike Tyson would defeat a Wladimir Klitschko at his best, but there are several questions worth considering, namely:

• Has Mike Tyson ever demonstrated an ability to overcome adversity inside the ring?

• How many times has Wladimir Klitschko impressed us with his determination to recover from being hurt and become competitive again during bouts… and in some cases, even snatch a victory from the jaws of defeat?

• Assuming Mike Tyson was at his prime for the first 37 bouts of his career (before he was defeated by ‘Buster’ Douglas), would the 6’ 6” 245lb Klitschko struggled to defeat any of those opponents, whose average weight was 212lbs (i.e. the physical equivalent of rehydrated modern-day cruiserweights)?

• Is it fair to compare Wladimir’s performance levels against Tyson’s, considering ‘Dr Steelhammer’ had to face men whose average weight was 247lbs, 35lbs heavier and taller than the type of men ‘Iron’ Mike shared the ring with during his fighting prime?

• It seems that the majority of the people that frequent this forum prefer to believe that Tyson knocks-out a “prime” version of the allegedly “chinny” Klitschko, whilst refusing to recognise any of the Ukraine’s stylistic improvements he implemented during the final decade of his title reign. Therefore, how many times did Wladimir Klitschko fall apart and get stopped from the second bout onwards that Emanuel Steward & his understudy started training him (since October 2004)?

• Do you think that the Emanuel Steward strategy that Klitschko started using from 2004 would be successful against Mike Tyson? If I recall correctly, Wladimir liked to throw a punch or two, grab his foe, lean all his weight on his shorter opponent during the clinch to wear them down and then push his challenger away to create distance. Didn’t Lennox Lewis use precisely the same tactic against Tyson, with the Brit also being trained by the legendary Emanuel Steward?

• Is it wrong to say that ‘Iron’ Mike’s was already past-his-prime when he reached his 22nd birthday, he only managed to score two decision victories during the course of his world title reign and could only manage to stop one opponent from the eighth round onwards throughout the entire course of his career?

• Should we not take into consideration ‘Iron’ Mike’s very own thoughts in regards to this subject matter?

Mike Tyson articulated the following when asked if he was capable at his prime of defeating the Klitschkos.

“I don’t know [if I could beat them]. You know, if I’m in the ring with someone, my intentions is to beat them, to hurt them…

“In reality, even though we don’t want to believe it, athletes get better as time goes on. They don’t get worse.”

“They may not look better, they get better, they’re bigger, they do better vitamins… It’s just a whole different game compared to when I was fighting.”

“We didn’t have the vitamins, we didn’t have the muscle juice that everyone has now… none of that stuff!”

MrGuy wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 05:53

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Jan 2018, 05:05 This thread should be moved to the history forum section since it has zero relevance to boxing’s “current scene”, but I’ll submit my thoughts anyway…

It seems as though people are supremely confident that a prime version of Mike Tyson would defeat a Wladimir Klitschko at his best, but there are several questions worth considering, namely:

• Has Mike Tyson ever demonstrated an ability to overcome adversity inside the ring?

• How many times has Wladimir Klitschko impressed us with his determination to recover from being hurt and become competitive again during bouts… and in some cases, even snatch a victory from the jaws of defeat?

• Assuming Mike Tyson was at his prime for the first 37 bouts of his career (before he was defeated by ‘Buster’ Douglas), would the 6’ 6” 245lb Klitschko struggled to defeat any of those opponents, whose average weight was 212lbs (i.e. the physical equivalent of rehydrated modern-day cruiserweights)?

• Is it fair to compare Wladimir’s performance levels against Tyson’s, considering ‘Dr Steelhammer’ had to face men whose average weight was 247lbs, 35lbs heavier and taller than the type of men ‘Iron’ Mike shared the ring with during his fighting prime?

• It seems that the majority of the people that frequent this forum prefer to believe that Tyson knocks-out a “prime” version of the allegedly “chinny” Klitschko, whilst refusing to recognise any of the Ukraine’s stylistic improvements he implemented during the final decade of his title reign. Therefore, how many times did Wladimir Klitschko fall apart and get stopped from the second bout onwards that Emanuel Steward & his understudy started training him (since October 2004)?

• Do you think that the Emanuel Steward strategy that Klitschko started using from 2004 would be successful against Mike Tyson? If I recall correctly, Wladimir liked to throw a punch or two, grab his foe, lean all his weight on his shorter opponent during the clinch to wear them down and then push his challenger away to create distance. Didn’t Lennox Lewis use precisely the same tactic against Tyson, with the Brit also being trained by the legendary Emanuel Steward?

• Is it wrong to say that ‘Iron’ Mike’s was already past-his-prime when he reached his 22nd birthday, he only managed to score two decision victories during the course of his world title reign and could only manage to stop one opponent from the eighth round onwards throughout the entire course of his career?

• Should we not take into consideration ‘Iron’ Mike’s very own thoughts in regards to this subject matter?

Mike Tyson articulated the following when asked if he was capable at his prime of defeating the Klitschkos.

“I don’t know [if I could beat them]. You know, if I’m in the ring with someone, my intentions is to beat them, to hurt them…

“In reality, even though we don’t want to believe it, athletes get better as time goes on. They don’t get worse.”

“They may not look better, they get better, they’re bigger, they do better vitamins… It’s just a whole different game compared to when I was fighting.”

“We didn’t have the vitamins, we didn’t have the muscle juice that everyone has now… none of that stuff!”

You dont have to rise off the floor to face adversity. If Wlad had to overcome being hurt by the lot he went against, it doesn't help his case. Weight isn't everything. After a point in that class its counterproductive. From Berbick on (title win) his average opponent weighed 231. In Wlads case (Byrd on) his average opponent weighed 233. If they continually get better, why have more recent years been dreadfu?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 07:11
As far as I can tell, Tyson's proponents in this thread are unable to provide a truthful (factually-accurate) response to any of the questions I posed!

Riddick Blowe wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 07:26

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 07:11
As far as I can tell, Tyson's proponents in this thread are unable to provide a truthful (factually-accurate) response to any of the questions I posed!

Maybe they just don’t have as much time on their hands as you seem to.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 07:11

MrGuy wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 05:53

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Jan 2018, 05:05 This thread should be moved to the history forum section since it has zero relevance to boxing’s “current scene”, but I’ll submit my thoughts anyway…

It seems as though people are supremely confident that a prime version of Mike Tyson would defeat a Wladimir Klitschko at his best, but there are several questions worth considering, namely:

• Has Mike Tyson ever demonstrated an ability to overcome adversity inside the ring?

• How many times has Wladimir Klitschko impressed us with his determination to recover from being hurt and become competitive again during bouts… and in some cases, even snatch a victory from the jaws of defeat?

• Assuming Mike Tyson was at his prime for the first 37 bouts of his career (before he was defeated by ‘Buster’ Douglas), would the 6’ 6” 245lb Klitschko struggled to defeat any of those opponents, whose average weight was 212lbs (i.e. the physical equivalent of rehydrated modern-day cruiserweights)?

• Is it fair to compare Wladimir’s performance levels against Tyson’s, considering ‘Dr Steelhammer’ had to face men whose average weight was 247lbs, 35lbs heavier and taller than the type of men ‘Iron’ Mike shared the ring with during his fighting prime?

• It seems that the majority of the people that frequent this forum prefer to believe that Tyson knocks-out a “prime” version of the allegedly “chinny” Klitschko, whilst refusing to recognise any of the Ukraine’s stylistic improvements he implemented during the final decade of his title reign. Therefore, how many times did Wladimir Klitschko fall apart and get stopped from the second bout onwards that Emanuel Steward & his understudy started training him (since October 2004)?

• Do you think that the Emanuel Steward strategy that Klitschko started using from 2004 would be successful against Mike Tyson? If I recall correctly, Wladimir liked to throw a punch or two, grab his foe, lean all his weight on his shorter opponent during the clinch to wear them down and then push his challenger away to create distance. Didn’t Lennox Lewis use precisely the same tactic against Tyson, with the Brit also being trained by the legendary Emanuel Steward?

• Is it wrong to say that ‘Iron’ Mike’s was already past-his-prime when he reached his 22nd birthday, he only managed to score two decision victories during the course of his world title reign and could only manage to stop one opponent from the eighth round onwards throughout the entire course of his career?

• Should we not take into consideration ‘Iron’ Mike’s very own thoughts in regards to this subject matter?

Mike Tyson articulated the following when asked if he was capable at his prime of defeating the Klitschkos.

“I don’t know [if I could beat them]. You know, if I’m in the ring with someone, my intentions is to beat them, to hurt them…

“In reality, even though we don’t want to believe it, athletes get better as time goes on. They don’t get worse.”

“They may not look better, they get better, they’re bigger, they do better vitamins… It’s just a whole different game compared to when I was fighting.”

“We didn’t have the vitamins, we didn’t have the muscle juice that everyone has now… none of that stuff!”

You dont have to rise off the floor to face adversity. If Wlad had to overcome being hurt by the lot he went against, it doesn't help his case. Weight isn't everything. After a point in that class its counterproductive. From Berbick on (title win) his average opponent weighed 231. In Wlads case (Byrd on) his average opponent weighed 233. If they continually get better, why have more recent years been dreadfu?

When ‘Iron’ Mike was at his destructive best (prior to his defeat to ‘Buster’ Douglas) for the first 37 bouts of his career, his opponents typically weighed 212lbs (excl. four anomalous fighters), which means that he dominated a bunch men that were the physical equivalent of rehydrated modern-day cruiserweights.

I excluded the latter part of 'Iron' Mike's career from the calculation, because he was either delivering sub par performances or he was losing.

Remember, the topic of this thread is to discuss the "prime" versions of Tyson and Klitschko, hence the justification for my calculation method.

Therefore, please recalculate your stats rather than cherry picking a sample of the population to ensure the calculated average adheres to your preferred narrative.

Also, you didn't address any of the other points I raised. Are you trying to undermine the validity of my entire argument based on minutiae, such as the outcome of a mathematical calculation?

As far as I can tell, Tyson's proponents in this thread are unable to provide a truthful (factually-accurate) response to any of the questions I posed!

IronFrost wrote: ↑15 Jan 2018, 23:11 Who wins? With fair referee without any ilegal wrestling crap?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑19 Jan 2018, 21:11

dWd wrote: ↑19 Jan 2018, 19:35

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Jan 2018, 18:26 Ali would've had a field day getting in Tyson's head.

Later on he would have yes, but not the prime 19, 20yr old fully focused Tyson.

Mike Tyson has always been a mentally weak person. He didn’t organically become that way. He was protected by adults during his teenage years and (during that period) didn’t have to endure any trash talk from a fellow athlete whose talents were on a par with his own.

Nobody trash-talked the teenage version of Mike Tyson, so no one can pretend to know with any great degree of certainty how he would have handled that situation, but hindsight tells us (based on the actions of the more mature version of the same man we all witnessed) that he may have actually been very vulnerable to any hurtful comments.

Whenever he lost possession of the winning momentum during bouts, he never managed to regain it and always ended-up getting stopped!

Mike Tyson never overcame adversity inside the ring… and there’s a very obvious reason for that!

Knucklez wrote: ↑19 Jan 2018, 04:24Wladimir was too scared to throw punches against Tyson Fury.

Against Mike Tyson he would be in the corner with his arms around his head, crying for his mummy.

Klitschko’s partner was suffering from post-partum depression, postponed their wedding and also checked into rehab around the same timeframe that Wladimir fought Tyson Fury.

Most of these problems had resolved themselves by the time Klitschko faced Anthony Joshua, hence the reason for his vastly-improved performance levels, despite having to endure a 1½ year hiatus away from the sport.

Fighters are human beings and their emotional state inevitably affects their performance levels. Merely casual boxing observers need to remember that prior to articulating any derogatory comments!

I can’t believe the nature of some of the fúckíng stupid comments I’ve read on this forum tonight! Are people either písséd or fúckíng high on drugs?

MrGuy wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 08:27
The big guys Wlad beat were bigger. Just not as good. Wlad 7-8 years into his career getting ko'd isn't in his prime

asdfjkl wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:38 Wlad, easely, Tyson wasn't even as good as Povetkin.

MrGuy wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:42

asdfjkl wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:38 Wlad, easely, Tyson wasn't even as good as Povetkin.

How so?

asdfjkl wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:48

MrGuy wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:42

asdfjkl wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:38 Wlad, easely, Tyson wasn't even as good as Povetkin.

How so?

Well, watch their fights, Povetkin is clearly better

Kalan wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:12 [

MrGuy wrote: ↑20 Jan 2018, 08:27
The big guys Wlad beat were bigger. Just not as good. Wlad 7-8 years into his career getting ko'd isn't in his prime

Wlad wasn't in his prime... His prime is after Steward had him for 2 years..... He had to shed his bad habits and technical flaws and retool his game - then he had one of the longest unbeaten streaks in Heavyweight Championship History.

A boxer's prime is when he reaches a degree of technical proficiency which is about as high as he going to get - to an age where he gets too old to perform at that proficiency... That could be 20 to 35 .... 27 to 36 .... 22 to 32 .... It's bound to be different for each boxer.... From Wladimir's rematch with Chris Byrd through his fight with Kubrat Pulev, he looked really great technically and extremely sharp physically -- so therefore his prime was from 30 to 39, because he seemed to be falling off at age 39 with his Jennings Fight -- and obviously laid an egg versus Fury later that year.

MrGuy wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 05:00

asdfjkl wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:48

MrGuy wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:42 How so?

Well, watch their fights, Povetkin is clearly better

Tyson dispatched better opposition faster. So I'm really doubting it.

asdfjkl wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 06:10

MrGuy wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 05:00

asdfjkl wrote: ↑21 Jan 2018, 04:48
Well, watch their fights, Povetkin is clearly better

Tyson dispatched better opposition faster. So I'm really doubting it.

Better competition like who?