I'm struggling to come up with a fight in Tyson's career where he won a hard fought unanimous decision...If Tyson was in there with a guy who wasn't afraid, was throwing back as opposed to simply trying to survive, and had legitimate talent, he gave up and went away. I don't think you can divorce that dynamic from this type of conversation.
Was Tyson a more dynamic, more talented fighter, quite possible, even quite likely. But, if we are going to pretend that he had a knack for adjusting and digging deep to find a way in two way wars we may as well pretend that Vitali had the hand speed of Roy Jones to even the playing field again.
Razor Ruddock 2 certainly counts as a hard fought Unanimous Decision I'd say. James "Quick" Tillis won 4 of the 10 rounds against Mike as well. That doesn't exactly indicate a walk in the park.
Ruddock 2 was probably my best candidate as well. But, he was somewhat limited compared to Vitali. I am not trying to move the goal posts on you, so again I take your reply as a point taken. I just didn't fully agree as I think there was not the same danger of losing in that one, and I think it is the real danger of losing that shakes Tyson and triggers the tendency to lose resolve.
I don't want to make another post, so I wanted to add that Tillis was a very nice point as well. The reason that I didn't lead with that one myself (other than not remembering it right off the top of my head). Was once again, the danger of losing wasn't really present. Tyson had every reason to believe that he was leading throughout. Similarly, Tyson was consistently getting his punches off and with good effect. I think that fight demonstrated that Tillis was damn tough and showed great courage and resolve.
The point I am making about Tyson is against elite guys who could legitimately beat him through great skills and toughness, he was fragile. Tillis and Ruddock showed some of that certainly, but they didn't really have Tyson thinking, I don't think I can beat this guy. Admittedly, this is just my take on it, obviously, I don't profess to know what is in his head.
I can see him winning the fight, especially at his best. But, I think he would need to break out in front and get Vitali in to some kind of survival mode. Barring that, Vitali's ability to fight tall and take a punch would demoralize Tyson and he would get the win, likely sweeping the later rounds of the fight. My take.
You have a perfectly valid point as well. I'm not trying to be a dick or steamroll you on this conversation. You're right that Tyson did show a tendency to fold in his toughest bouts. I'd most notably point to Buster Douglas and Holyfield here as he was still in fine fighting form in these bouts. He gave up on himself fairly early against Lennox, and the Danny Williams fight showed that he had no more resolve left when the going got tough he'd just pack it in, but by that point he was a shell of himself, and was just hoping for a 1st or 2nd round KO or he'd say to hell with it. I don't think those efforts are indicative of what a Prime Tyson would do....the Holyfield fight might be though.
The thing is though. I don't think Vitali is in the same league as Holyfield.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 12 Feb 2018, 16:11
by pound per pound
And what league is Holyfield in? Bowe owned him 2-1. Lewis should be 2-0 vs. Holyfield. Okay, those were the best two he fought. Tyson in the 1990's wasn't the same when Holyfield beat him.
Holyfield is 1-1 vs. Moorer, was in some trouble and counted vs. fringe contender Bert Cooper, was cut by Holmes, and let an older Foreman have his moments. He looked rather poor vs. Vaughn Bean. I think Vitali would do better vs. the same guys.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 12 Feb 2018, 17:53
by gregor
pound per pound wrote: ↑12 Feb 2018, 16:11
I think Vitali would do better vs. the same guys.
The best common opponents: Lewis, Byrd. Hardly better, and Holy at least went the distanse (and has the excuse of being past-prime at that point of his career).
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 12 Feb 2018, 18:02
by BitPlayer
While we are questioning Tyson's heart, what about Vitali quitting against Byrd?
Plenty of fighters have kept going with much worse injuries, and in much worse situations too.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 13 Feb 2018, 11:39
by Jaywheel
Show me anything on VK's resume that come close to a W against Mike Tyson? Guy stepped up 2 times and lost twice. Defended his title against old blown up CW's and past prime clowns. Threw the sink and more to Briggs and couldn't hurt him.
So funny when people about Tyson's struggle to overcome adversity. VK quit in his prime against a good CW lel. But hey, he KO'ed the great Sosnowski!!! What a killing machine.
Tyson's 5 best win are better than anything VK ever did. Hits harder, is much faster, has a comparable chin. Tyson for me. He could dispose of Wlad in 1 before fighting Vit on the same night.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 13 Feb 2018, 12:47
by Enlightened-One
I hate to say this, but the size difference between Mike Tyson and Vitali Klitschko is really staggering.
When ‘Iron’ Mike was in his prime, for the first 37 bouts of his career, the average weight of his opponents was 212lbs. Would the 6’ 7” 250lbs Klitschko struggled to defeat any of those fellows? I sincerely doubt it.
Has Mike Tyson ever demonstrated an ability to overcome adversity inside the ring? I think he’d face quite a lot of it against the rugged, stylistically awkward and mentally tough Vitali Klitschko.
Even Mike Tyson has expressed his doubts about his own ability to overcome the Klitschko’s if he had faced them during his prime.
On a pound-for-pound basis, a prime version of Tyson beats Klitschko, but if we’re only considering the actual physical real-world versions of these men, then ‘Dr. Ironfist’ stops ‘Iron’ Mike during the mid-stages of their bout.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 13 Feb 2018, 20:18
by Thomastearns
There's no real way of knowing but it is rather easy to fall into the the trap of believing that modern means better.
Here's one persons take on it.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 14 Feb 2018, 05:55
by candyslim
Loki wrote: ↑11 Feb 2018, 14:59
Pointless thread, as it’s impossible to answer. They were both great in their primes. Vitali would give HW throughout history REAL problems and in theory, I fancy him over Tyson. But, who really knows how any HW would fair against Tyson in the late 80’s.... Nobody....
They are both top 20 HWs of all time in my opinion and that’s enough.
My sentiments exactly.
edit. Actually take out the bit about fancying Vitali, going with my heart I'd lean toward Tyson, then it's'exactly'.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 14 Feb 2018, 15:29
by BitPlayer
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑13 Feb 2018, 12:47
When ‘Iron’ Mike was in his prime, for the first 37 bouts of his career, the average weight of his opponents was 212lbs. Would the 6’ 7” 250lbs Klitschko struggled to defeat any of those fellows? I sincerely doubt it.
How many of Vitali's opponents were above that weight purely because of sheer flab?
Thomastearns wrote: ↑13 Feb 2018, 20:18
There's no real way of knowing but it is rather easy to fall into the the trap of believing that modern means better.
Here's one persons take on it.
The top modern heavies have natural size and height, but honestly watching some of Reznick's cleaned up footage, I'm not convinced the skills have really gotten better. They've changed a bit, but so have the rules (and how they are enforced). A lot of the improvement in athletics is pretty artificial as well, tracks have gotten harder etc. even still there are plenty of records that haven't been broken in decades, and the "average person fitness" is getting a lot worse
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 14 Feb 2018, 15:44
by pound per pound
BitPlayer wrote: ↑12 Feb 2018, 18:02
While we are questioning Tyson's heart, what about Vitali quitting against Byrd?
Plenty of fighters have kept going with much worse injuries, and in much worse situations too.
Well didn't he quit in fight without an injury? Tyson wanted out of the Lewis fight before the stoppage, and DQ'd himself vs Holyfield.
Those who stood up to Tyson ( Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis ) beat him.
While Vitali quit too, it was because of an injury which needed surgery and he was up on the cards. Later in his career Vitali proved his heart vs Lewis, and by beating Chisora with a similar injury. Tyson? He was crying in his corner vs Lewis when cut and hurt.
In boxing quitting with a major injury is far more acceptable than opting out of a fight with none.
Tyson might be the best all time vs tier two fighters, but I find vs better he loses steam as the rounds roll on.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
BitPlayer wrote: ↑12 Feb 2018, 18:02
While we are questioning Tyson's heart, what about Vitali quitting against Byrd?
Plenty of fighters have kept going with much worse injuries, and in much worse situations too.
Well didn't he quit in fight without an injury? Tyson wanted out of the Lewis fight before the stoppage, and DQ'd himself vs Holyfield.
Those who stood up to Tyson ( Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis ) beat him.
While Vitali quit too, it was because of an injury which needed surgery and he was up on the cards. Later in his career Vitali proved his heart vs Lewis, and by beating Chisora with a similar injury. Tyson? He was crying in his corner vs Lewis when cut and hurt.
In boxing quitting with a major injury is far more acceptable than opting out of a fight with none.
Tyson might be the best all time vs tier two fighters, but I find vs better he loses steam as the rounds roll on.
I wouldn't be shocked if Vitali did the same if he was up against it, he never proved he wouldn't anyway. Maybe Vitali would have quit against Lewis had that fight gone on, there was plenty still to go.
Vitali couldn't go a few more rounds against a guy 5.5 inches shorter, and over 30lbs lighter pumped up, and fluffy? He quit right away, even his corner wanted him to go on.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 14 Feb 2018, 16:41
by jamamb
vitali was way ahead in that fight too, to quit then isnt the stuff of a true hardman.
he said no more in front of his home audience, against a way smaller light hitter, in a fght he was winning wide. there were only three rounds left. he didt have to throw any more punches to win. just see it out without going down,
he couldve even do that though
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 14 Feb 2018, 18:09
by BitPlayer
jamamb wrote: ↑14 Feb 2018, 16:41
vitali was way ahead in that fight too, to quit then isnt the stuff of a true hardman.
he said no more in front of his home audience, against a way smaller light hitter, in a fght he was winning wide. there were only three rounds left. he didt have to throw any more punches to win. just see it out without going down,
he couldve even do that though
Hell, shot Shannon Briggs kept going for the full 12 rounds against Vitali with a torn bicep and broken orbital, and he was losing badly
A torn rotator cuff isn't even really a bad injury, I've had one before, they aren't very painful. At worst you lose range of motion, and honestly, it didn't even look like he lost that much, not nearly as much as I did.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑13 Feb 2018, 12:47
When ‘Iron’ Mike was in his prime, for the first 37 bouts of his career, the average weight of his opponents was 212lbs. Would the 6’ 7” 250lbs Klitschko struggled to defeat any of those fellows? I sincerely doubt it.
How many of Vitali's opponents were above that weight purely because of sheer flab?
Are you really suggesting that the purpose of the 200lbs division is redundant, because that's what you're implying, since the vast majority of modern day cruiserweights will inevitably enter the ring heavier than 212lbs?
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑13 Feb 2018, 12:47
When ‘Iron’ Mike was in his prime, for the first 37 bouts of his career, the average weight of his opponents was 212lbs. Would the 6’ 7” 250lbs Klitschko struggled to defeat any of those fellows? I sincerely doubt it.
How many of Vitali's opponents were above that weight purely because of sheer flab?
Are you really suggesting that the purpose of the 200lbs division is redundant, because that's what you're implying, since the vast majority of modern day cruiserweights will inevitably enter the ring heavier than 212lbs?
No they not. Some of the top ones and up and coming ones, sure, but not the majority of alll cruiserweights at all. The weights of cruiserweights when they fight heavyweights makes it clear they don't.
If that's the case Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis would be smaller than the "vast majority" of modern cruiserweights.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
BitPlayer wrote: ↑14 Feb 2018, 15:29
How many of Vitali's opponents were above that weight purely because of sheer flab?
Are you really suggesting that the purpose of the 200lbs division is redundant, because that's what you're implying, since the vast majority of modern day cruiserweights will inevitably enter the ring heavier than 212lbs?
No they not. Some of the top ones and up and coming ones, sure, but not the majority of alll cruiserweights at all. The weights of cruiserweights when they fight heavyweights makes it clear they don't.
If that's the case Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis would be smaller than the "vast majority" of modern cruiserweights.
You strongly suggested that it was irrelevant that Tyson competed against opponents that were the physical equivalent of modern day cruiserweights, when comparing his in-ring ability with Klitschko's.
You can't have it both ways. Either my point was perfectly valid or it wasn't.
What's it to be? Does size matter or doesn't it?
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑14 Feb 2018, 20:21
Are you really suggesting that the purpose of the 200lbs division is redundant, because that's what you're implying, since the vast majority of modern day cruiserweights will inevitably enter the ring heavier than 212lbs?
No they not. Some of the top ones and up and coming ones, sure, but not the majority of alll cruiserweights at all. The weights of cruiserweights when they fight heavyweights makes it clear they don't.
If that's the case Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis would be smaller than the "vast majority" of modern cruiserweights.
You strongly suggested that it was irrelevant that Tyson competed against opponents that were the physical equivalent of modern day cruiserweights,
No I didn't because It's not true.
I guess It's just a shame Mike only had puny cruiserweights like Frank Bruno and Larry Holmes to fight, instead of modern super heavyweights like Chris Byrd and Tomasz Adamek.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
BitPlayer wrote: ↑12 Feb 2018, 18:02
While we are questioning Tyson's heart, what about Vitali quitting against Byrd?
Plenty of fighters have kept going with much worse injuries, and in much worse situations too.
Well didn't he quit in fight without an injury? Tyson wanted out of the Lewis fight before the stoppage, and DQ'd himself vs Holyfield.
Those who stood up to Tyson ( Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis ) beat him.
While Vitali quit too, it was because of an injury which needed surgery and he was up on the cards. Later in his career Vitali proved his heart vs Lewis, and by beating Chisora with a similar injury. Tyson? He was crying in his corner vs Lewis when cut and hurt.
In boxing quitting with a major injury is far more acceptable than opting out of a fight with none.
Tyson might be the best all time vs tier two fighters, but I find vs better he loses steam as the rounds roll on.
I wouldn't be shocked if Vitali did the same if he was up against it, he never proved he wouldn't anyway. Maybe Vitali would have quit against Lewis had that fight gone on, there was plenty still to go.
Vitali couldn't go a few more rounds against a guy 5.5 inches shorter, and over 30lbs lighter pumped up, and fluffy? He quit right away, even his corner wanted him to go on.
You are an arse. Vitali quit with a rotator cuff injury because he didn't want long term problems from worsening the Injury. He continued against Lewis with his face hanging off after eating massive shots against an ATG.
What a fornicating nobend.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Posted: 15 Feb 2018, 15:04
by jamesmcdonnell
Thomastearns wrote: ↑13 Feb 2018, 20:18
There's no real way of knowing but it is rather easy to fall into the the trap of believing that modern means better.
Here's one persons take on it.
Would have loved to have witnessed Jones or v Archie Moore. What a fight that would have been.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
Well didn't he quit in fight without an injury? Tyson wanted out of the Lewis fight before the stoppage, and DQ'd himself vs Holyfield.
Those who stood up to Tyson ( Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis ) beat him.
While Vitali quit too, it was because of an injury which needed surgery and he was up on the cards. Later in his career Vitali proved his heart vs Lewis, and by beating Chisora with a similar injury. Tyson? He was crying in his corner vs Lewis when cut and hurt.
In boxing quitting with a major injury is far more acceptable than opting out of a fight with none.
Tyson might be the best all time vs tier two fighters, but I find vs better he loses steam as the rounds roll on.
I wouldn't be shocked if Vitali did the same if he was up against it, he never proved he wouldn't anyway. Maybe Vitali would have quit against Lewis had that fight gone on, there was plenty still to go.
Vitali couldn't go a few more rounds against a guy 5.5 inches shorter, and over 30lbs lighter pumped up, and fluffy? He quit right away, even his corner wanted him to go on.
You are an arse. Vitali quit with a rotator cuff injury because he didn't want long term problems from worsening the Injury. He continued against Lewis with his face hanging off after eating massive shots against an ATG.
What a effing nobend.
It's a torn rotator cuff FFS, people talk about it like his arm was hanging off. It's not a bad injury. I've had one.
Byrd was getting to him or something.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
BitPlayer wrote: ↑14 Feb 2018, 15:53
I wouldn't be shocked if Vitali did the same if he was up against it, he never proved he wouldn't anyway. Maybe Vitali would have quit against Lewis had that fight gone on, there was plenty still to go.
Vitali couldn't go a few more rounds against a guy 5.5 inches shorter, and over 30lbs lighter pumped up, and fluffy? He quit right away, even his corner wanted him to go on.
You are an arse. Vitali quit with a rotator cuff injury because he didn't want long term problems from worsening the Injury. He continued against Lewis with his face hanging off after eating massive shots against an ATG.
What a effing nobend.
It's a torn rotator cuff FFS, people talk about it like his arm was hanging off. It's not a bad injury. I've had one.
Byrd was getting to him or something.
Are you retarded?
If you tear your rotator cuff, and you keep on punching, you risk long term damage to the tendons, as they can tear further,
shoulder surgery, is notoriously unpredictable, there's a chance you will never recover a full range of motion, when there is a serious tear. I spent 18 months doing physio to avoid having surgery, as the consultant warned me that it could have a negative outcome, and that it was better to manage it through physio and injections. If you have a badly torn rotator cuff, it necessitates a major operation. The smaller the tear, the greater the chance that you don't require surgery.
Other fighters have had their careers ended following surgery to repair the shoulder, because they simply aren't able to throw punches with any confidence or force with that shoulder.. It happened to Dean Phillips,
Vitali, like his brother, has a PhD in sports science and nutrition, and would have been well aware of the long term risks to his career fighting through a torn rotator cuff.
If you want to convince yourself Vitali is a quitter to make yourself feel better, then fine, but it seems pretty obvious he isn't given the state of his mush against Lewis, and the fact he was furious the fight was stopped by the doctor. If there was any dog in him, that was the perfect time to quit, as Lewis was giving him a bit of a shooing by that point.
Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime.
If you tear your rotator cuff, and you keep on punching, you risk long term damage to the tendons, as they can tear further,
shoulder surgery, is notoriously unpredictable, there's a chance you will never recover a full range of motion, when there is a serious tear. I spent 18 months doing physio to avoid having surgery, as the consultant warned me that it could have a negative outcome, and that it was better to manage it through physio and injections. If you have a badly torn rotator cuff, it necessitates a major operation. The smaller the tear, the greater the chance that you don't require surgery.
Other fighters have had their careers ended following surgery to repair the shoulder, because they simply aren't able to throw punches with any confidence or force with that shoulder.. It happened to Dean Phillips,
Vitali, like his brother, has a PhD in sports science and nutrition, and would have been well aware of the long term risks to his career fighting through a torn rotator cuff.
He could have punched with his other hand only, ran and clinched, it was a few rounds against someone he had an absurd size advantage over.
If you want to convince yourself Vitali is a quitter to make yourself feel better, then fine, but it seems pretty obvious he isn't given the state of his mush against Lewis, and the fact he was furious the fight was stopped by the doctor. If there was any dog in him, that was the perfect time to quit, as Lewis was giving him a bit of a shooing by that point.
Has anyone choose to quit over cuts?
'm not going to get all self rightious, but people are making him out to be some legendary hardman vs Mike Tyson the quitter, when it's just not backed up by his record.
