BoxRec

Loftgroov wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:

TerribleTerry wrote:There is a big difference between bein a 'hardman' and being a skilled boxer for my money - I remember reading that Bob Foster's brother was a great street fighter but wasn't all that with gloves on...

I know from personal experience lads who could go all day in terms of a street brawl, but dont manage the same with gloves on...two completely different environments.

I agree.

The other thing about unlicensed fighting is that due to the nature of the game, there is often no records kept, videos of fights etc.

So therefore word of mouth is often relied upon when it comes to results and the standard of the fighters. So therefore a lot of what you hear is false and half truths.

But it allows the myth of 'hardman legands' to grow out of propportion.

That's interesting to know. A lot of what I have read about McClean (admittedly often written either by himself or his associates) leaves you thinking the guy was awesome and near unbeatable in his prime as "The Guv'nor". Seems like 6 wins vs. 6 losses is more like his genuine record.

I have no doubt that in their respective primes McClean, Shaw etc were very very hard men on the cobbles and could walk through 95% of the so called hardmen in my (and yours) town without breaking into a sweat.

But putting them up against trained Boxers is a different matter all together, as McClean fights against a overweight and untertrained Cliff Fields and amatuer Johnny Waldron show.

I've heard from people I trust that knew of the late McClean (but did not know him personally) and they always told me that was one man you did not want to mess with on the cobbles.

I always annoyes me a little when a big deal is made out of Roy Shaw beating Ron Stander in the late 1970's in a unlicensed bout in London. And how this is stated that Shaw beat a World Title Contender. That is not quite true in the sense that by the time Shaw got to Stander he was a former contender, who was losing by KO again and again in the 'legit' ring to very poor fighters. Stander by this time was rarely training and liked a drink or three. To be fair to Roy Shaw he has stated a number of times that if Stander had been in shape he would have took a beating. Shaw has also stated that he wanted no part of Cliff Fields whom he regards as the real Guv'nor.

With regard to the Shaw V Stander fight, which was covered in the daily papers in the UK (how times have changed!). I think I am right in saying that it was a Joe Pyle promotion who set up their own sanctioning body to oppose the BBBofC (something like the BBBF). So some may say this fight was not unlicensed. Just a minor point.

On a side note just over 12 months ago Cliff Fields who for many years has had a bad drink problem had a major stroke and was sadly in a bad way.

This fighter has come from the unlicensed scene and is unbeated so far, will be interesting to se how he gets on.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=216884

Mickey trains over at Gleasons gym and although he doesnt look in great shape he has good hand speed and could do ok.

HH

To be honest I can't really see the fascination with these low-life thugs like Mclean and Shaw.

This is a boxing site and this thread should have at the least had 'Off Topic' in the subject line, if not it should be on one of those 'true crime' sites, presuming they have those.

Goz wrote:To be honest I can't really see the fascination with these low-life thugs like Mclean and Shaw.

This is a boxing site and this thread should have at the least had 'Off Topic' in the subject line, if not it should be on one of those 'true crime' sites, presuming they have those.

I see what you are saying, but some may argue that some unlicensed fights have the same set up and organisation behind them as 'legit' Boxing, and are legal, it's just that they are not recognised by the BBBofC.

Many famous fighters such as Leon Spinks have had non-sactioned fights that are listed in the Boxrec database.

There is little difference.

Yes there is Leon Spinks was a boxer a genuine boxer ,Mclean ect were thugs who usually fought smaller men out the ring with great succes whilst in the ring were mediocre.
Spinks fought men the same size in the ring with success, how does anyone think Mclean ect would go with Foreman or Tyson out the ring , I know who my money would be on and it would'nt be some London thug thats for sure.

In the early eighties seen a Doorman in Manchester take on and flatten about 7-8 coppers trying to put him in the back of a van don't know his name but he was supposed to be right up there has one of the best in the illigal fight scene, Couple of weeks later seen an ex ameteur fighter called Allen Totto who was also a doorman sparkle him with 2 punches

KOJOE90 wrote:

Goz wrote:To be honest I can't really see the fascination with these low-life thugs like Mclean and Shaw.

This is a boxing site and this thread should have at the least had 'Off Topic' in the subject line, if not it should be on one of those 'true crime' sites, presuming they have those.

I see what you are saying, but some may argue that some unlicensed fights have the same set up and organisation behind them as 'legit' Boxing, and are legal, it's just that they are not recognised by the BBBofC.

Many famous fighters such as Leon Spinks have had non-sactioned fights that are listed in the Boxrec database.

There is little difference.

This is quite correct. There is nothing illegal about these fights, they are just unlicensed by the BBBofC.

I have no problems with fights which occur outside of the sanction of the BBBofC, so long as the medical provisions are adequate, and they are contests between relatively evenly matched opponents (not always the case in licensed boxing) and are refereed by competent refs, with rules which are applied evenly and correctly to protect the boxers.

I've spoken to lots of old boys who used to be boxing fans, who only go to the unlicenced shows now as they see professional boxing as too much of a business and no longer a sport.

Didn't allegedly set up his own governing body when the BBBofC refused to sanction his early bouts, which then forced the BBBofC to relent due to their popularity?

My mate boxed unlicensed and beat both Julius Francis and Danny Williams...He was a decent fighter but liked a beer to much...

Dave Courtney had a few pro fights if i remember correctly, as he told me in a doo up in newcastle a couple of months back though (whilst holding a knuckleduster) "I'll take anyone in the world on with one of these, I know I can get one punch in and thats all you'd need, if it hits the arm it'll break it, if it hits the ribs it'll break 'em.... get the idea"

Hardhitters11 wrote:My mate boxed unlicensed and beat both Julius Francis and Danny Williams...He was a decent fighter but liked a beer to much...

Interesting, anymore information on this?

I had heard that Julius Francis fought unlicensed when he was Amatuer, word got out and he got banned from that years ABA's. Can anyone comfirm this?

I also hear that former British Heavyweigh Champion Hughroy 'Trevor' Currie had an unlicensed fight a few years ago.

coneye wrote:Yes there is Leon Spinks was a boxer a genuine boxer ,Mclean ect were thugs who usually fought smaller men out the ring with great succes whilst in the ring were mediocre.
Spinks fought men the same size in the ring with success, how does anyone think Mclean ect would go with Foreman or Tyson out the ring , I know who my money would be on and it would'nt be some London thug thats for sure.

I was not and would not compare Spinks and McClean in terms of Boxing ability I was just making the points that many fighters of many different levels have had unlicensed/Non sanctioned fights.

Just in case anyone's interested "King of The Gypsies," the autobiography of Bartly Gorman the gypsy bareknuckle champion, is worth a read if your interested in the world of prize fighting. It follows the format of most of these books (lots war stories) but offers an interesting insight into a world which seems to have always existed in parallel to mainstream boxing. It has some pretty interesting stuff about his family (who were fighters going right back to the mid 1800s) and also some other famous gypsy fighters. As I say it's not great literature but is an interesting light read.

KOJOE90 wrote:
I had heard that Julius Francis fought unlicensed when he was Amatuer, word got out and he got banned from that years ABA's. Can anyone comfirm this?

TRUE

Wales wrote:Dave Courtney had a few pro fights if i remember correctly, as he told me in a doo up in newcastle a couple of months back though (whilst holding a knuckleduster) "I'll take anyone in the world on with one of these, I know I can get one punch in and thats all you'd need, if it hits the arm it'll break it, if it hits the ribs it'll break 'em.... get the idea"

What a pleasant man.

Back in 1987 McLean was making noises about fighting Mike Tyson in a 6 round winner takes all bout.

There were people who actually thought McLean could win

My arse, Tyson would have done him in about 30 seconds.

I think McClean would have been knocked unconscious by the first series of shots Tyson landed. There's just no comparison between the levels of speed of fitness...

KOJOE90 wrote:

Hardhitters11 wrote:My mate boxed unlicensed and beat both Julius Francis and Danny Williams...He was a decent fighter but liked a beer to much...

Interesting, anymore information on this?

I had heard that Julius Francis fought unlicensed when he was Amatuer, word got out and he got banned from that years ABA's. Can anyone comfirm this?

I also hear that former British Heavyweigh Champion Hughroy 'Trevor' Currie had an unlicensed fight a few years ago.

My pals name was Wayne "The Duke" Gibson...

As for Dave Courtney he is an absolute plum....he drinks in my local sometimes and lives just up the road...he is a tiny little fella and although he knows alot of people he is nothing at all...

HH

Didn`t Frankie Fraser put the frighteners on him a while ago.

They cant stand each other...

Franks ancient now though was a lethal B'stard in his day though.

Goz wrote:To be honest I can't really see the fascination with these low-life thugs like Mclean and Shaw.

This is a boxing site and this thread should have at the least had 'Off Topic' in the subject line, if not it should be on one of those 'true crime' sites, presuming they have those.

Sorry Lord Goz, I'll run everything past you first next time to check you agree with it.

KOJOE90 wrote:

Hardhitters11 wrote:My mate boxed unlicensed and beat both Julius Francis and Danny Williams...He was a decent fighter but liked a beer to much...

Interesting, anymore information on this?

I had heard that Julius Francis fought unlicensed when he was Amatuer, word got out and he got banned from that years ABA's. Can anyone comfirm this?

I also hear that former British Heavyweigh Champion Hughroy 'Trevor' Currie had an unlicensed fight a few years ago.

Francis was a doorman for Courtney, so it would stand to reason.

As for Dave Courtney he is an absolute plum....he drinks in my local sometimes and lives just up the road...he is a tiny little fella and although he knows alot of people he is nothing at all...

Have to disagree with that one, met the guy twice both times at charity events, yes he's a small guy and yes he has more front than brighton but he was always accomodating and ready for photos, signing books etc..
He may look nothing at all but I dont think you'd get to employ 500 doormen in London and look after security for the Krays funeral without having something to back the mouth up. Different level to the likes of shaw and mclean but I dont think he's "nothing at all"

Hardhitters11 wrote:

KOJOE90 wrote:

Hardhitters11 wrote:My mate boxed unlicensed and beat both Julius Francis and Danny Williams...He was a decent fighter but liked a beer to much...

Interesting, anymore information on this?

I had heard that Julius Francis fought unlicensed when he was Amatuer, word got out and he got banned from that years ABA's. Can anyone comfirm this?

I also hear that former British Heavyweigh Champion Hughroy 'Trevor' Currie had an unlicensed fight a few years ago.

My pals name was Wayne "The Duke" Gibson...

As for Dave Courtney he is an absolute plum....he drinks in my local sometimes and lives just up the road...he is a tiny little fella and although he knows alot of people he is nothing at all...

HH

Yeah, my mate used to work with him as a dustman on Lambeth Council.

The guy is a plastic gangster.

He'd probably knock the shit out of me in a fight, but he does seem to thrive from the adulation and attention from the press. There's a lot of it about, and Guy Ritchie fillms seem to have revived interest in London based 'naughties.' Fair play I suppose, if you can make a career talking about your notorious past, so be it, I guess it's preferable to cracking heads for a living.

I met Cass Pennant a few weeks back, not realising who he was, have to say, he seemed like a very nice bloke. He had that quiet placid look of someone who has been around violence and didn't feel the need to give it the large one. Didn't realise who he was until I looked him up, I knew I knew his name and face from somewhere.

As my old man told me years ago, 'it's always the guy who doesn't say a word who'll tear your head off.'

TerribleTerry wrote:

Loftgroov wrote:Isn't Bronson the "world press-ups champion" or something? (as I recall)

Look to Brummie Iron Man Paddy Doyle as regards most of these records - loves his boxing and is a truly incredible fitness athlete

Still holds the title of "World's fittest Man", I believe. But what do you expect from a former soldier of the Parachute Regiment?!