Who is a harder puncher then George Foreman?

[gilgamesh]

The biggest hitters in Heavyweight History P4P were Jack Dempsey... Joe Louis... Mike Tyson... Deontay Wilder, Wladimir Klitschko... and Anthony Joshua... AJ never fails to win by KO... He's fighting guys who are bigger, stronger and strudier than Crawford Grimsley or Levi Forte... A quick right uppercut put iron jawed Dillian Whyte on ice. Whyte looked like a dead bird caught in a fence, but Deontay Wilder turned down a fight with Whyte... He doesn't want the comparison.

Picking guys mid career is silly because at one stage Foreman was 40-0 (37KOS) with a 24KO winning streak going into the Ali fight. Just because someone goes the distance with someone doesn't mean they can't punch, lots of huge punchers have been taken the distance that includes all the above with the exception of AJ who has only had 20 fights.

And Takam WOULD'VE made it the distance with Joshua if not for the referee stopping the fight unnecessarily.

[gilgamesh]

Foreman was probably the hardest punching HW of all time....look at how the bodies of his opponents are "swept" when he hits them. However.....he lacked two things...based on my observations.

1. Typically his opponents could see them coming, more than not. Like the big Locomotive barreling in. And that helped his opponents in a limited sort of way.
2. He wasn't all that laser focused on "where" he hit someone.


Those two things probably define the difference between him and Tyson.....for a while Tyson was a Laser and finding those perfect noggin points that put you to sleep. Foreman could sort of squash you like an ant. or bust your head like a melon. Debilitate you but not necessarily always put you to sleep. Nor did he need to.

Tyson hit you like a well guided baseball bat.
Foreman hit you like a falling tree. More overall power....but not much more overall effectiveness.

Good analogy there

[Syntax Error]

Muhammad Ali said that Shavers was the hardest puncher he faced & this from a man who also fought, Liston, Foreman & Lyle.

Ali had no axe to grind or any truck with these guys, so his comments were more than likely sound.

[gilgamesh]

Muhammad Ali said that Shavers was the hardest puncher he faced & this from a man who also fought, Liston, Foreman & Lyle.

Ali had no axe to grind or any truck with these guys, so his comments were more than likely sound.

This is true, but you always have to take Fighters answers to questions like that with a bit of a grain of salt. I've seen many a fighter give a dishonest answer to those types of questions, but yeah in the case of Ali I'm sure it's an honest answer because having watched his fights with all the names mention Shavers is definitely the guy that lands the most thudding shot on him in any of those bouts.

This doesn't necessarily mean that Shavers hit harder than Foreman, but he definitely landed a heavier punch on Ali than Foreman ever did. Foreman never really landed a particularly clean shot on Ali...especially upstairs. Shavers landed one right on the button toward the end of the 2nd round. Ali took it.

[Syntax Error]

Foreman was probably the hardest punching HW of all time....look at how the bodies of his opponents are "swept" when he hits them. However.....he lacked two things...based on my observations.

1. Typically his opponents could see them coming, more than not. Like the big Locomotive barreling in. And that helped his opponents in a limited sort of way.
2. He wasn't all that laser focused on "where" he hit someone.


Those two things probably define the difference between him and Tyson.....for a while Tyson was a Laser and finding those perfect noggin points that put you to sleep. Foreman could sort of squash you like an ant. or bust your head like a melon. Debilitate you but not necessarily always put you to sleep. Nor did he need to.

Tyson hit you like a well guided baseball bat.
Foreman hit you like a falling tree. More overall power....but not much more overall effectiveness.

I know this isn't about Foreman, but Larry Holmes made a great analogy in the aftermath if his defeat to Tyson, when asked who hit harder, Tyson or Shavers & he said something along the lines of, being hit by Tyson was like being hit by a Corvette, whereas being hit by Shavers was like being hit by a truck.

Foreman had that similar type of clubbing power that Shavers had, so yes, I would say that Foreman was probably a harder hitter than Tyson, but I think Tyson was arguably the more effective KO machine because of his speed, combinations & accuracy.

[Ambling Alp II]

The hardest punch Lewis ever got hit with was by Rahman, who was not a particularly hard puncher.

He was a pretty decent puncher and a big guy too (17+ stone). 41 KOS in 50 wins isn't too shabby and when he fought Lewis he was 34-2 (28KOS).

I didn't mean he couldn't crack at all. I was just saying he was not a huge puncher.
It doesn't matter how big he was. There are tons of really big guys who could not punch at all. Forget about the needle on the scale.
KO% isn't really that relevant if you have not fought a lot of top competition. (you need to factor is the losses and draws in KO% anyway)
Outside of Lewis, the next best opponent Rahman stopped was Corrie Sanders. Everyone else halfway decent either beat Rahman or at least went the distance.

[Controversial]

The hardest punch Lewis ever got hit with was by Rahman, who was not a particularly hard puncher.

He was a pretty decent puncher and a big guy too (17+ stone). 41 KOS in 50 wins isn't too shabby and when he fought Lewis he was 34-2 (28KOS).

I didn't mean he couldn't crack at all. I was just saying he was not a huge puncher.
It doesn't matter how big he was. There are tons of really big guys who could not punch at all. Forget about the needle on the scale.
KO% isn't really that relevant if you have not fought a lot of top competition. (you need to factor is the losses and draws in KO% anyway)
Outside of Lewis, the next best opponent Rahman stopped was Corrie Sanders. Everyone else halfway decent either beat Rahman or at least went the distance.

He was no Foreman or Tyson but I just think its pushing it to say he wasn't a hard puncher. The more weight behind your punch it will help more than hinder. Some big guys are arm punchers like Fury where weight isn't really a factor but Rahman got his weight into the punch that flattened Lewis.

Bonecrusher Smith had a worse KO record than Rahman but he could still bang and he didn't KO anyone as good as Lewis (ignoring the dive by Witherspoon). He hit hard enough for Ribalta and Bruno to say he was the hardest puncher they fought when between them they fought guys like Tyson, Klitschko, McCall and Ruddock.

[Kalan]

The biggest hitters in Heavyweight History P4P were Jack Dempsey... Joe Louis... Mike Tyson... Deontay Wilder, Wladimir Klitschko... and Anthony Joshua... AJ never fails to win by KO... He's fighting guys who are bigger, stronger and strudier than Crawford Grimsley or Levi Forte... A quick right uppercut put iron jawed Dillian Whyte on ice. Whyte looked like a dead bird caught in a fence, but Deontay Wilder turned down a fight with Whyte... He doesn't want the comparison.

Picking guys mid career is silly because at one stage Foreman was 40-0 (37KOS) with a 24KO winning streak going into the Ali fight. Just because someone goes the distance with someone doesn't mean they can't punch, lots of huge punchers have been taken the distance that includes all the above with the exception of AJ who has only had 20 fights.

In 2 of those 40 fights Foreman failed to KO Levi Forte and Light Heavyweight Gregorio Peralta... Don't get me wrong. Foreman was a great puncher for his day... So was Dempsey... But George wasn't the hardest puncher ever.

This has been a typical discussion that quickly degenerates into "American icons of the 1970's were the hardest punchers ever. Nothing existed in the Heavyweight Division before or after the Ali era." These debates are not open minded discussions... This is religion to Americans - the religion of the Ali era... Ali couldn’t punch - so naturally it had to be somebody who smacked Ali hard who was the hardest puncher. That's where the religion comes in.

Foreman hit Lou Saverese with loaded shots... Maybe you didn’t see the fight... Saverese had no chin whatever.. Kirk Johnson flattened Lou with ordinary punches.. Mike Tyson stopped Lou with the 1st punch he threw.. Foreman hit Frazier with a ton of punches but Little Joe Frazier kept getting up. Mercante stopped it because it was a one-sided butchering and for no other reason.. Frazier couldn't defend himself... Six knockdowns in 2 rounds??? Where was the ice job???

A great puncher delivers ice jobs on men of that size if he hits them so well with so many punches.. Falling tree my ass.. A falling tree squashes your head and ends your life.. Typical rhetoric we get from true religious believers like BuzzBox.

Bigger, taller, and stronger men of the same athletic ability hit harder than shorter, smaller, and weaker men... I picked Foreman to crush Frazier quickly cuz Frazier was small, short, light, fat, slow, and couldn't box.. Frazier couldn't get out of his own way, much less defend himself well.. Neither could box, so it was going to be a slugfest between a big, tall, strong, rock solid kid in the best shape of his life - against a roly-poly fat kid in the worst shape of his career to that point.. Frazier did get even fatter later on -- and so did Foreman, but who cares??? They were the Golden Era boys so they get a pass.

Joshua has many more successful title defenses than a young George Foreman had... AJ definitely is bigger, taller, stronger, and quicker fisted... He's more skilled as a boxer and jabs better.. He sets up his punches better, delivering cleaner, harder shots and crisper combos.. AJ hasn't fought any challengers like teeny little Joe Roman... He hasn't fought any little, short, fat guys like Frazier... He fights no chinless wonders like Ken Norton who lead with their head in a cross armed defense.

Joshua goes 250 in rock hard shape... Foreman got into his best shape once (1 time) in his life at 217 pounds... I was extremely impressed... George looked ready to kill -- but at 250 Foreman was a blob who couldn't KO Tommy Morrison.

[gilgamesh]

I wonder if you'll still be this high on Joshua when he inevitably loses

[Ambling Alp II]

He was a pretty decent puncher and a big guy too (17+ stone). 41 KOS in 50 wins isn't too shabby and when he fought Lewis he was 34-2 (28KOS).

I didn't mean he couldn't crack at all. I was just saying he was not a huge puncher.
It doesn't matter how big he was. There are tons of really big guys who could not punch at all. Forget about the needle on the scale.
KO% isn't really that relevant if you have not fought a lot of top competition. (you need to factor is the losses and draws in KO% anyway)
Outside of Lewis, the next best opponent Rahman stopped was Corrie Sanders. Everyone else halfway decent either beat Rahman or at least went the distance.

He was no Foreman or Tyson but I just think its pushing it to say he wasn't a hard puncher. The more weight behind your punch it will help more than hinder. Some big guys are arm punchers like Fury where weight isn't really a factor but Rahman got his weight into the punch that flattened Lewis.

Bonecrusher Smith had a worse KO record than Rahman but he could still bang and he didn't KO anyone as good as Lewis (ignoring the dive by Witherspoon). He hit hard enough for Ribalta and Bruno to say he was the hardest puncher they fought when between them they fought guys like Tyson, Klitschko, McCall and Ruddock.

Maybe we aren't that far apart on this, I don't know. II think Rahman could punch, but there are many others who could punch harder that Lewis fought, ie Tyson, Ruddock, Tua etc.. However, Rahman just happened to be the one who landed the monster shot on Lewis.
If Rahman did that several other times in his career, then I would him right up there. But he didn't.
As far as weight goes, just having extra weight is not going to help. You also have to have speed, technique, accuracy. And of course some of it is just natural talent.
Valuev and Jameel McCline, were not hard punchers at all. Lance Whittaker was at the Chris Byrd level.

[Kalan]

If Rahman did that several other times in his career, then I would him right up there. But he didn't. As far as weight goes, just having extra weight is not going to help. You also have to have speed, technique, accuracy. And of course some of it is just natural talent. Valuev and Jameel McCline, were not hard punchers at all. Lance Whittaker was at the Chris Byrd level.

Rahman stopped Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders, and Kali Meehan. He wouldn't have stopped them if he didn't have big Heavyweight size. He pretty much controlled Monte Barrett and his size and strength helped him tons in that fight... He couldn't get anything big on Barrett, but he was able to control him and bully him with his superior size...

David Haye wasn't big... He's an old man right now, but he was able to get big shots on Barrett, Chisora, and Ruiz fairly easily at his best... He got them knocked TFO.. Haye was very strong, fast, and skilled... He got mediocre guys outta here... Dillian Whyte couldn't KO Chisora.. Why do you think that is??? Whyte is a very big, strong guy, but with no brain... Whyte and Rahman are both bigger and stronger than Haye, but lacked the speed, skill, and mental equipment of a great Heavyweight... Size, strength, skill, and smarts gives you the best of all worlds.

Rahman didn't have good luck with Maskaev, Holyfield, Povetkin, Klitschko, Tua, or Toney... There's a dividing line... He was a 1-punch KO threat, but if you could box real well Rahman wasn't going to land anything big on you - less he got lucky.

As far as Valuev not being a hard puncher. He sure as Hell got Monte Barrett and Jameel McCline outta there... He could definitely punch like Hell if anyone allowed a giant like him to load and throw.. Valuev wasn't very bright and had no finesse at all... He couldn't get a single big shot on Ruslan Chagaev or David Haye and was easily out-boxed by both.

Primo Carnea flattened opponents like Jack Sharkey... Sharkey was a terrible boxer and not too bright... Primo never got a good punch on Joe Louis... He got a lot of light punches on Max Baer, and won some rounds -- but couldn't hit Max with a big shot.. Joe Louis had enough skill and finesse to hit both Carnera and Baer about as hard as he could throw...

If you lack the skill and intelligence to line somebody up for your best stuff, you'll never get them out.. It's basically brains over brawn... Brawn helps out a lot... Primo Carnera punched the smarter Tommy Loughran all over the ring.

[Controversial]

As far as weight goes, just having extra weight is not going to help. You also have to have speed, technique, accuracy. And of course some of it is just natural talent.
Valuev and Jameel McCline, were not hard punchers at all. Lance Whittaker was at the Chris Byrd level.

Yes I agree that weight alone doesn't mean much, like I said Fury is heavier than most but he's an arm puncher and doesn't really get his weight into his shots. Rahman like a lot of HWs wasn't always in the best shape or motivated but he could certainly hit harder than many HWs when he landed, he made use of his weight in his punches better than someone like Fury.

[Controversial]

The biggest hitters in Heavyweight History P4P were Jack Dempsey... Joe Louis... Mike Tyson... Deontay Wilder, Wladimir Klitschko... and Anthony Joshua... AJ never fails to win by KO... He's fighting guys who are bigger, stronger and strudier than Crawford Grimsley or Levi Forte... A quick right uppercut put iron jawed Dillian Whyte on ice. Whyte looked like a dead bird caught in a fence, but Deontay Wilder turned down a fight with Whyte... He doesn't want the comparison.

Picking guys mid career is silly because at one stage Foreman was 40-0 (37KOS) with a 24KO winning streak going into the Ali fight. Just because someone goes the distance with someone doesn't mean they can't punch, lots of huge punchers have been taken the distance that includes all the above with the exception of AJ who has only had 20 fights.

In 2 of those 40 fights Foreman failed to KO Levi Forte and Light Heavyweight Gregorio Peralta... Don't get me wrong. Foreman was a great puncher for his day... So was Dempsey... But George wasn't the hardest puncher ever.

This has been a typical discussion that quickly degenerates into "American icons of the 1970's were the hardest punchers ever. Nothing existed in the Heavyweight Division before or after the Ali era." These debates are not open minded discussions... This is religion to Americans - the religion of the Ali era... Ali couldn’t punch - so naturally it had to be somebody who smacked Ali hard who was the hardest puncher. That's where the religion comes in.

Foreman hit Lou Saverese with loaded shots... Maybe you didn’t see the fight... Saverese had no chin whatever.. Kirk Johnson flattened Lou with ordinary punches.. Mike Tyson stopped Lou with the 1st punch he threw.. Foreman hit Frazier with a ton of punches but Little Joe Frazier kept getting up. Mercante stopped it because it was a one-sided butchering and for no other reason.. Frazier couldn't defend himself... Six knockdowns in 2 rounds??? Where was the ice job???

A great puncher delivers ice jobs on men of that size if he hits them so well with so many punches.. Falling tree my ass.. A falling tree squashes your head and ends your life.. Typical rhetoric we get from true religious believers like BuzzBox.

Bigger, taller, and stronger men of the same athletic ability hit harder than shorter, smaller, and weaker men... I picked Foreman to crush Frazier quickly cuz Frazier was small, short, light, fat, slow, and couldn't box.. Frazier couldn't get out of his own way, much less defend himself well.. Neither could box, so it was going to be a slugfest between a big, tall, strong, rock solid kid in the best shape of his life - against a roly-poly fat kid in the worst shape of his career to that point.. Frazier did get even fatter later on -- and so did Foreman, but who cares??? They were the Golden Era boys so they get a pass.

Joshua has many more successful title defenses than a young George Foreman had... AJ definitely is bigger, taller, stronger, and quicker fisted... He's more skilled as a boxer and jabs better.. He sets up his punches better, delivering cleaner, harder shots and crisper combos.. AJ hasn't fought any challengers like teeny little Joe Roman... He hasn't fought any little, short, fat guys like Frazier... He fights no chinless wonders like Ken Norton who lead with their head in a cross armed defense.

Joshua goes 250 in rock hard shape... Foreman got into his best shape once (1 time) in his life at 217 pounds... I was extremely impressed... George looked ready to kill -- but at 250 Foreman was a blob who couldn't KO Tommy Morrison.

Foreman was 48 and well past it and slow as hell when he fought Savarese. AJ doesn't really one punch KO opponents either, more often than not the ref stops the fight. Not saying he can't punch but you won't find many one punch KOs on his record. To say Foreman wasn't that great because he couldn't stop Forte or Peralta is scrapping the barrel somewhat. Peralta was a durable, awkward and experienced opponent. He had 90 fights behind him whereas Foreman only had 15. Foreman also stopped in the rematch. Forte was having his 44th fight and Foreman was having his 12th. Sometimes experience helps and styles come into play, you can't knock everyone out no matter how hard you hit.

[Jmangho]

I believe Marciano was quite possibly a harder puncher then Foreman, old, or in his prime.

[Controversial]

I believe Marciano was quite possibly a harder puncher then Foreman, old, or in his prime.

Marciano was punching guys who were light-heavys or cruiserweights by todays standards, his power was never tested against 15+ stone fighters.

[DrDuke]

All those "the hardest puncher" talks are very subjective. It's not possible to measure, all usual contenders of that contest had lotta brutal KOs and sometimes against guys, whos chin had been considered special. It's all about the spectators' perception. A person will name the hardest pucher that guy, whos KOs have looked the scariest for that particular spectator.

[BoxBuzz]

Based on how he moved people around, he appeared to have insane strength....go look at the films, he swept guys down on occasion. ON the other hand, he was nowhere near as effective as many of the other fighters mentioned here.

Maybe the better conversations isn't about how hard he could punch......a contest I think he might win......but how effective he could punch.....a contest in which he may not even make the top ten.

[Controversial]

Based on how he moved people around, he appeared to have insane strength....go look at the films, he swept guys down on occasion. ON the other hand, he was nowhere near as effective as many of the other fighters mentioned here.

Maybe the better conversations isn't about how hard he could punch......a contest I think he might win......but how effective he could punch.....a contest in which he may not even make the top ten.

Yes definitely, he showed in the Ali fight how ineffective he could be.

[Kalan]

I believe Marciano was quite possibly a harder puncher then Foreman, old, or in his prime.

I don't agree...

Rocky had to knock old Archie Moore down many times before he finally stopped him with full blooded swings.... Moore had been knocked out many times before. He was knocked down about 20 times before... He wasn't that difficult to hit because his cross armed defense left him vulnerable as Hell... He was also a little guy who started as a Welterweight.

Mike Tyson smashed 6'2" X 212 ATG, undefeated Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks out in 90 seconds... Mike was definitely throwing much harder than Rocky could manage on his best night.... Rocky didn't have the size or strength to crush folks like Mike.... Rocky beat them down over many rounds -- and his brilliant KO record and ring record can both be attributed to extremely soft opposition... There just weren't any Heavyweights around then.

I do think Tyson punched harder than Foreman.... His best shots were more compact and speedier.... He packed dynamite... He wasn't a good boxer and neither was Foreman... You have to look long and hard to find a puncher who can box.

[gilgamesh]

I believe Marciano was quite possibly a harder puncher then Foreman, old, or in his prime.

I don't agree...

Rocky had to knock old Archie Moore down many times before he finally stopped him with full blooded swings.... Moore had been knocked out many times before. He was knocked down about 20 times before... He wasn't that difficult to hit because his cross armed defense left him vulnerable as Hell... He was also a little guy who started as a Welterweight.

Mike Tyson smashed 6'2" X 212 ATG, undefeated Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks out in 90 seconds... Mike was definitely throwing much harder than Rocky could manage on his best night.... Rocky didn't have the size or strength to crush folks like Mike.... Rocky beat them down over many rounds -- and his brilliant KO record and ring record can both be attributed to extremely soft opposition... There just weren't any Heavyweights around then.

Your beloved Anthony Joshua would have been knocked down multiple times if he had over 200 fights.

I like AJ by the way. I just don't drift off into fantasy land with my opinion of him or what he's accomplished

[Flump]

All those "the hardest puncher" talks are very subjective. It's not possible to measure, all usual contenders of that contest had lotta brutal KOs and sometimes against guys, whos chin had been considered special. It's all about the spectators' perception. A person will name the hardest pucher that guy, whos KOs have looked the scariest for that particular spectator.

That's the sort of reasoned, accurate assessment that will get you into trouble round here.

[Kalan]

I believe Marciano was quite possibly a harder puncher then Foreman, old, or in his prime.

I don't agree...

Rocky had to knock old Archie Moore down many times before he finally stopped him with full blooded swings.... Moore had been knocked out many times before. He was knocked down about 20 times before... He wasn't that difficult to hit because his cross armed defense left him vulnerable as Hell... He was also a little guy who started as a Welterweight.

Mike Tyson smashed 6'2" X 212 ATG, undefeated Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks out in 90 seconds... Mike was definitely throwing much harder than Rocky could manage on his best night.... Rocky didn't have the size or strength to crush folks like Mike.... Rocky beat them down over many rounds -- and his brilliant KO record and ring record can both be attributed to extremely soft opposition... There just weren't any Heavyweights around then.

Your beloved Anthony Joshua would have been knocked down multiple times if he had over 200 fights.

I like AJ by the way. I just don't drift off into fantasy land with my opinion of him or what he's accomplished

He would not have been down "multiple times".. Maybe he'll be knocked down once in his career... Louis was knocked down 12 times... Rocky Marciano was knocked down twice in about as many Heavyweight Championship Fights as AJ has had... They weren't easy to knock down, but they got knocked down more times than Joshua.

Tell me Gilgamesh... If you have 18 fights, and get knocked down by an ATG Heavyweight Champion who goes 6'6" X 240 -- but you rally back and knock the ATG Heavyweight Champion down 3 X and stop him - who had the better night???

Things like Wladimir Klitschko never happened to Archie Moore or Rocky Marciano.... It's another day at the office for AJ.