Larry Holmes vs Riddick Bowe

[Cojimar 1946]

The thing that's noticeable right of the bat is the massive difference in how successful large heavyweights are today vs in past eras. In the 60s and 70s I don't think any heavyweight over 240 pounds ever cracked the top 10 even once. Nowadays they dominate the top 10. Also, the argument about lack of skilled smaller heavyweights doesn't really make sense. Historically, fighters at light heavyweight often moved up to campaign at heavyweight successfully and some even won the title like Gene Tunney, Bob Fitzsimmons, and Ezzard Charles. Why haven't light heavyweights or cruiserweights successfully moved up to heavyweight since Holyfield? I think most people would argue that recent years have seen considerable talent at cruiserweight and light heavyweight with Bieterbeev, Huck, Usyk, Ward, Lebedev, etc

[oogiebe]

The thing that's noticeable right of the bat is the massive difference in how successful large heavyweights are today vs in past eras. In the 60s and 70s I don't think any heavyweight over 240 pounds ever cracked the top 10 even once. Nowadays they dominate the top 10. Also, the argument about lack of skilled smaller heavyweights doesn't really make sense. Historically, fighters at light heavyweight often moved up to campaign at heavyweight successfully and some even won the title like Gene Tunney, Bob Fitzsimmons, and Ezzard Charles. Why haven't light heavyweights or cruiserweights successfully moved up to heavyweight since Holyfield? I think most people would argue that recent years have seen considerable talent at cruiserweight and light heavyweight with Bieterbeev, Huck, Usyk, Ward, Lebedev, etc

Great point. Big guys used to be (mostly) spastic.

[AndyYevish]

Bowe was a tough guy who at his absolute peak was a match for peak Holyfield...
Holmes was nearly a match for peak Holyfield at age 45 lol.
Andrew Golota gave Bowe fits by simply boxing and having a decent jab and right hand.
Holmes was a much better boxer, more accurate puncher and had a very underrated right hand which took out a lot of previously unbeaten fighters.

As to the size advantage for Bowe... only one inch in Height, and reach both at 81. Holmes jab was much much better.

Peak Holmes by relatively easy decision or possibly late rpund stoppage.

Bowe was a tough guy but not in the same class as Holmes.

And for everyone who picked peak Frazier over peak Holmes, you're dreaming. He would have been easily outboxed qnd stopped. Holmes didn't sit around laying on the ropes letting opponents punch his body like Ali did.

Larry anywhere near his peak would have easily outpointed or stopped late any version of Frazier. Frazier had no right hand which was Larry's foil. He rarely got hit with hooks.

Frazier's ballyhoo comes from the "Ali legend".

Ali's record vs contemporary fighters, especially post incarceration was not impressive... save the upset win over Foreman where if it wasn't 110 degrees qt ringside he likely loses.

Ali won decisions he shouldn't have vs Norton twice, and was pedestrian vs Shavers and Jimmy Young in his early 30s. He is rated as high as he is because of his political impact, two unlikely upset wins over an overrated Liston and Foreman, qnd his mouth and hype. Ali lost to Spinks at age 36. Holmes beats prime Leon Spinks at age 50.

Okay Ali fans... let's hear it.

[DrDuke]

Ali won decisions he shouldn't have vs Norton twice, and was pedestrian vs Shavers and Jimmy Young in his early 30s. He is rated as high as he is because of his political impact, two unlikely upset wins over an overrated Liston and Foreman, qnd his mouth and hype. Ali lost to Spinks at age 36. Holmes beats prime Leon Spinks at age 50.

Okay Ali fans... let's hear it.

Well, you can't take those Liston and Foreman wins from him, but, yes, his political impact makes people to give him an extra credit. Anyway, run and hide, Ali fans are alrwady coming for ya.

[Onamastus]

Bowe was a tough guy who at his absolute peak was a match for peak Holyfield...
Holmes was nearly a match for peak Holyfield at age 45 lol.
Andrew Golota gave Bowe fits by simply boxing and having a decent jab and right hand.
Holmes was a much better boxer, more accurate puncher and had a very underrated right hand which took out a lot of previously unbeaten fighters.

As to the size advantage for Bowe... only one inch in Height, and reach both at 81. Holmes jab was much much better.

Peak Holmes by relatively easy decision or possibly late rpund stoppage.

Bowe was a tough guy but not in the same class as Holmes.

And for everyone who picked peak Frazier over peak Holmes, you're dreaming. He would have been easily outboxed qnd stopped. Holmes didn't sit around laying on the ropes letting opponents punch his body like Ali did.

Larry anywhere near his peak would have easily outpointed or stopped late any version of Frazier. Frazier had no right hand which was Larry's foil. He rarely got hit with hooks.

Frazier's ballyhoo comes from the "Ali legend".

Ali's record vs contemporary fighters, especially post incarceration was not impressive... save the upset win over Foreman where if it wasn't 110 degrees qt ringside he likely loses.

Ali won decisions he shouldn't have vs Norton twice, and was pedestrian vs Shavers and Jimmy Young in his early 30s. He is rated as high as he is because of his political impact, two unlikely upset wins over an overrated Liston and Foreman, qnd his mouth and hype. Ali lost to Spinks at age 36. Holmes beats prime Leon Spinks at age 50.

Okay Ali fans... let's hear it.

A tour de force in the style of arguing where you paint the guy you like in as positive a light as possible while applying absurd levels of criticism to the guy you don't like to strengthen your point. It's so tired and juvenile I'm surprised grown men write these posts and submit them with a straight face.

The question is Holmes vs Bowe and the chap rambles his way into an attack on Ali by way of a kicking of Joe Frazier--with Sonny Liston and George Foreman thrown in for good measure!

How do you diminish Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Liston and puff up Larry Holmes, whose greatest win was versus an old Ken Norton, whom everyone ranks below Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Liston?

A 50 year old Larry Holmes beats prime Leon Spinks? So that's after Larry lost to Maurice Harris then?

[AntonioMartin]

Shouldnt this go on mythical matchups? I know I accidentally put Witherspoon-Shavers in another forum too lol so...

I think Holmes wins this one with his jab, by decision.

[AntonioMartin]

Ali and Holmes are the strongest psyche's the sport has ever produced ...... I'm on the record as believing [Bowe] beats Lewis prime for prime.... But as Alp jokingly refers to the "stats" with a sense of humor, and Kalan seems to take them seriously.... So...In my goofy world.....Foreman hits harder than Ike based on what my "lying eyes" tell me

Frazier, Spinks, and Norton psyched Ali out -- simply by not buying into his "greatness" and treating him as cannon fodder.

Tyson psyched Holmes out -- by exerting his youth, strength, and punching power (considerable advantages for Mikey) and smashing right into Larry until he was outta there.

It would be hard to imagine the dim witted and hittable Bowe getting the better of the resourceful Lewis.... Only you could do that by ignoring the extremely variant results of their match-ups with guys like punching bag Golota... Who was as dumb as Bowe, but not as easy to punch up side the head.

I guess you never heard of sarcasm... Everyone knows that Alp is constantly championing little tykes to beat bigger stronger men - and putting out stats that ignore Liston-Patterson... Tyson-Spinks... Foreman-Frazier... Lewis-Tyson... Ibeabuchi-Byrd and most fights where size and strength played a critical role... They don't meet his magic formula for weight advantage.

There's not many fights from "prime" Ike to choose from... He had 19 when he fought Byrd... However it was a little different than Tua's fight with Byrd -- and Foreman's fight with Jimmy Young... Foreman landed shots... They didn't do the job.

Add Louis-Carnera and Haye-Valuev to that list!

[f read]

Larry wins based on consistency. Bowe was well schooled good inside game etc but he was lazy. He would blow up and be unmotivated. Larry had great boxing skills and oh that superb left jab would keep Riddick at bay. Yes Bowe was good but only for a short time. Holmes had 20 title defenses. His one or two liabilities would be the lack of a great opponent to bring out the best in him also at times he tended to go right hand crazy. Great matchup but i would give Larry the edge in a good hard fought decision.

[pound per pound]

Prime vs Prime,

Holmes of his early championship time against Bowe of the early 90s, up to the 1st Holyfield-fight and subsequent successful title defences.

Who would you pick and why?

Holmes UD, by a 1-3 round margin.

Bowe was never much for defense and was probably out jabbed by Tony Tubbs, and was out jabbed by Golota. Holmes had an offensive and defense type of jab with snap and boy it was fast While a prime Bowe would make a good showing, I don't think he could put the ultra tough Holmes away.

[Onamastus]

Larry wins based on consistency. Bowe was well schooled good inside game etc but he was lazy. He would blow up and be unmotivated. Larry had great boxing skills and oh that superb left jab would keep Riddick at bay. Yes Bowe was good but only for a short time. Holmes had 20 title defenses. His one or two liabilities would be the lack of a great opponent to bring out the best in him also at times he tended to go right hand crazy. Great matchup but i would give Larry the edge in a good hard fought decision.

We're talking best vs best; not who racked up the most alphabet defenses. Who did Holmes beat in his 20 defences that Bowe wouldn't? Would Bowe have lost to Michael Spinks?

[margaret thatcher]

In the biggest pro tournaments in recent years, the WBSS and Super Six, every tournament was won by an emerging, relatively inexperienced as pro guy who looked the part talent wise but didnt have the same lengthy list of title defenses etc as the others. Ward, Usyk, Taylor, Smith etc. But they all had the ability.

In head to heads, accumulating a bunch of wins over 2nd -3rd tier only means so much. Fights aren't won on accumulating wins like that.

[Onetimeonly]

Larry wins based on consistency. Bowe was well schooled good inside game etc but he was lazy. He would blow up and be unmotivated. Larry had great boxing skills and oh that superb left jab would keep Riddick at bay. Yes Bowe was good but only for a short time. Holmes had 20 title defenses. His one or two liabilities would be the lack of a great opponent to bring out the best in him also at times he tended to go right hand crazy. Great matchup but i would give Larry the edge in a good hard fought decision.

We're talking best vs best; not who racked up the most alphabet defenses. Who did Holmes beat in his 20 defences that Bowe wouldn't? Would Bowe have lost to Michael Spinks?

Lol, you say best vs best and then bring up spinks? Mike would have pummeled bowe in riddicks mid to late 30's.

[Onamastus]

Larry wins based on consistency. Bowe was well schooled good inside game etc but he was lazy. He would blow up and be unmotivated. Larry had great boxing skills and oh that superb left jab would keep Riddick at bay. Yes Bowe was good but only for a short time. Holmes had 20 title defenses. His one or two liabilities would be the lack of a great opponent to bring out the best in him also at times he tended to go right hand crazy. Great matchup but i would give Larry the edge in a good hard fought decision.

We're talking best vs best; not who racked up the most alphabet defenses. Who did Holmes beat in his 20 defences that Bowe wouldn't? Would Bowe have lost to Michael Spinks?

Lol, you say best vs best and then bring up spinks? Mike would have pummeled bowe in riddicks mid to late 30's.

Yep, fair cop, shouldn't have brought up Spinks

[Onetimeonly]

We're talking best vs best; not who racked up the most alphabet defenses. Who did Holmes beat in his 20 defences that Bowe wouldn't? Would Bowe have lost to Michael Spinks?

Lol, you say best vs best and then bring up spinks? Mike would have pummeled bowe in riddicks mid to late 30's.

Yep, fair cop, shouldn't have brought up Spinks

The alphabet point is spot on. Bowe from holy 1 might be the most difficult opponent ever. Larry's movement from like shavers 1 would be a tough match up.