BoxRec

oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 16:57

Scypion wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 16:24 Thanks for the responses. I have enjoyed reading them. This has been a good discussion.

Marciano could hit very hard. Jimmy had a good chin and was knocked down for only the second time in the first Frazier fight. In 53 fights, he was knocked out only by Frazier (twice), Ali, and Shavers. Ellis was past his prime against Shavers and in his 2nd Frazier fight.

Marciano beat great fighters in Charles, Walcott, Louis, and Moore, but all were past their best against Rocky.

Ellis was fast. Only Ali and Patterson were faster at heavyweight at the time of Ellis" prime.

As for who would win between prime Ellis and prime Marciano, I don't know. It would have been a fight that I would have loved to have seen.

Great summation! Thanks!

Scypion wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 19:13

oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 16:57

Scypion wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 16:24 Thanks for the responses. I have enjoyed reading them. This has been a good discussion.

Marciano could hit very hard. Jimmy had a good chin and was knocked down for only the second time in the first Frazier fight. In 53 fights, he was knocked out only by Frazier (twice), Ali, and Shavers. Ellis was past his prime against Shavers and in his 2nd Frazier fight.

Marciano beat great fighters in Charles, Walcott, Louis, and Moore, but all were past their best against Rocky.

Ellis was fast. Only Ali and Patterson were faster at heavyweight at the time of Ellis" prime.

As for who would win between prime Ellis and prime Marciano, I don't know. It would have been a fight that I would have loved to have seen.

Great summation! Thanks!

Thanks for the nice compliment, but the discussion is not closed. Opinions are still welcome for anyone wishing to express them.

oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 19:18

Scypion wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 19:13

oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 16:57

Great summation! Thanks!

Thanks for the nice compliment, but the discussion is not closed. Opinions are still welcome for anyone wishing to express them.

I didn't intend the discussion to be closed, nor am I powerful enough to stop these maniacs from posting! and...you are welcome.

Scypion wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 20:02

oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 19:18

Scypion wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 19:13



Thanks for the nice compliment, but the discussion is not closed. Opinions are still welcome for anyone wishing to express them.

I didn't intend the discussion to be closed, nor am I powerful enough to stop these maniacs from posting! and...you are welcome.

OK, sorry, and thanks again.

Scypion wrote: ↑11 Mar 2018, 14:58

Kalan wrote: ↑11 Mar 2018, 13:46 Unbelievably limited...

Nobody who gets knocked out by a Middleweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should ever get a Heavyweight Title shot... Nobody who gets slaughtered by a feather punching Light Heavyweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should get that shot.

But Cockell wasn't the worst Heavyweight Title challenger I ever saw... Dave Zyglewicz was out slugged by a guy named Sam Wyatt, who's record was 6-7-2 and weighed 189... Then Zylewicz fought 4 guys who wouldn't be ranked in the top 200 and got a World Title Fight with Joe Frazier... He not only led with his head, but didn't move his head out of the way very often when a punch was coming.... Action starts at 1:57 and ends at 3:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUoKtvtBFcY

Jimmy Ellis should have fought a few guys like Ziggy instead of taking on Joe Frazier. Angelo must have known that Ellis had little chance of beating Frazier. Dundee knew a lot more about boxing than I did, so if I knew that Ellis couldn't beat Frazier, then I am sure that Angelo did.

I don't know if the WBA mandated that Ellis defend against Joe Frazier. If they did, then I would have vacated the title if I was Jimmy.

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Mar 2018, 01:13

Scypion wrote: ↑11 Mar 2018, 14:58

Kalan wrote: ↑11 Mar 2018, 13:46 Unbelievably limited...

Nobody who gets knocked out by a Middleweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should ever get a Heavyweight Title shot... Nobody who gets slaughtered by a feather punching Light Heavyweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should get that shot.

But Cockell wasn't the worst Heavyweight Title challenger I ever saw... Dave Zyglewicz was out slugged by a guy named Sam Wyatt, who's record was 6-7-2 and weighed 189... Then Zylewicz fought 4 guys who wouldn't be ranked in the top 200 and got a World Title Fight with Joe Frazier... He not only led with his head, but didn't move his head out of the way very often when a punch was coming.... Action starts at 1:57 and ends at 3:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUoKtvtBFcY

Jimmy Ellis should have fought a few guys like Ziggy instead of taking on Joe Frazier. Angelo must have known that Ellis had little chance of beating Frazier. Dundee knew a lot more about boxing than I did, so if I knew that Ellis couldn't beat Frazier, then I am sure that Angelo did.

I don't know if the WBA mandated that Ellis defend against Joe Frazier. If they did, then I would have vacated the title if I was Jimmy.

Well, that's been the problem with Boxing forever.... There are guys who won't fight if they think somebody might beat them... Boxing is too much of a business and losses are too big a a deal... I'm GLAD Ellis fought Frazier because it was the most logical fight out there... And I'm glad Frazier fought George Foreman and Floyd Patterson eventually fought Sonny Liston...

Some day there will be a mechanism in place in the Sport of Boxing where the best fight the best... instead of having the same 3 World Champions in one weight division for 4 or 5 years -- and they're all avoiding the best fighter and fighting 2nd rate opponents.

Scypion wrote: ↑13 Mar 2018, 20:30 Just my opinion, but I believe that prime Frazier and Ali would beat Marciano, but it might be a tougher fight than people think. Jimmy Ellis was the next best heavyweight of the late 60's, so a comparison with Rocky does seem like a good idea, especially after seeing the varying opinions here.

The most likely scenarios, IMO, would be a decision win by Ellis if he could last the 15 rounds with the Rock, or a late stoppage of Jimmy by Marciano. Another possibility would be Rocky stopped due to cuts. I understand that Ezzard Charles almost won his 2nd fight with Marciano due to a bad cut, but Rocky got his KO the next round. You might say that Ellis was no Ezzard Charles, but Charles was past it by the time he fought Marciano.

Kalan wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 14:50 Ellis was FAR better at his peak than an elderly and deteriorated Walcott -- who was 39 and a 2-pack a day smoker.

Walcott said himself that he was finished... Marciano was his LAST opponent. To the best I can recall he told Boxing Illustrated "I had nothing left. My body wouldn't do it anymore. I had to find something else to do for a living, but first I took a nice long vacation. After 23 years as a boxer and over 70 fights, I figure I earned it. I feel good about my career. I won most of my fights. I always worried about getting hurt but I came out okay. I never thought I would became heavyweight champion so that was a bonus. I got to travel a little and meet a lot of people. Boxing has been really good to me."

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 16:33

Kalan wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 14:50 Ellis was FAR better at his peak than an elderly and deteriorated Walcott -- who was 39 and a 2-pack a day smoker.

Walcott said himself that he was finished... Marciano was his LAST opponent. To the best I can recall he told Boxing Illustrated "I had nothing left. My body wouldn't do it anymore. I had to find something else to do for a living, but first I took a nice long vacation. After 23 years as a boxer and over 70 fights, I figure I earned it. I feel good about my career. I won most of my fights. I always worried about getting hurt but I came out okay. I never thought I would became heavyweight champion so that was a bonus. I got to travel a little and meet a lot of people. Boxing has been really good to me."

Wow, you recalled all that! Imagine.

Scypion wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:18 Regarding Jersey Joe Walcott, I will say that he could hit. He knocked down Joe Louis in both of their fights and hit Charles with one of the hardest punches I have ever seen. I don't think that there are many that could have gotten up from that punch to beat the count and Charles started to but then fell backwards.

Of course, Walcott was younger when he fought Louis and Charles than when he fought Rocky.

Kalan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 00:34

Scypion wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:18 Regarding Jersey Joe Walcott, I will say that he could hit. He knocked down Joe Louis in both of their fights and hit Charles with one of the hardest punches I have ever seen. I don't think that there are many that could have gotten up from that punch to beat the count and Charles started to but then fell backwards.

Of course, Walcott was younger when he fought Louis and Charles than when he fought Rocky.

I disagree on Walcott being a hard hitter... He certainly was a decent hitter.

Floyd Patterson hit Ingemar Johansson---a bigger man than Charles---with a much harder left left hook and Floyd was the only man to stop Ingo -- a few men stopped Charles... Walcott had a 45% KO ratio, which is middling...

Looking at a basket of hitters: Anthony Joshua has a 100% KO ratio.... Vitali Klitschko had a 87% KO ratio.... George Foreman had a 84% KO ratio... Joe Louis had a 75% KO ratio.... Bob Fitzsimmons had a 71% KO ratio.... Wladimir Klitschko had a 77% KO ratio.... and Floyd Patterson had a 63% KO ratio... Patterson fought bigger and better Heavyweights than Walcott did which held his KO average down... but anyone his size such as Archie Moore was pretty much going out fast and hard.

Like a Boss wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 00:53

Kalan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 00:34

Scypion wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:18 Regarding Jersey Joe Walcott, I will say that he could hit. He knocked down Joe Louis in both of their fights and hit Charles with one of the hardest punches I have ever seen. I don't think that there are many that could have gotten up from that punch to beat the count and Charles started to but then fell backwards.

Of course, Walcott was younger when he fought Louis and Charles than when he fought Rocky.

I disagree on Walcott being a hard hitter... He certainly was a decent hitter.

Floyd Patterson hit Ingemar Johansson---a bigger man than Charles---with a much harder left left hook and Floyd was the only man to stop Ingo -- a few men stopped Charles... Walcott had a 45% KO ratio, which is middling...

Looking at a basket of hitters: Anthony Joshua has a 100% KO ratio.... Vitali Klitschko had a 87% KO ratio.... George Foreman had a 84% KO ratio... Joe Louis had a 75% KO ratio.... Bob Fitzsimmons had a 71% KO ratio.... Wladimir Klitschko had a 77% KO ratio.... and Floyd Patterson had a 63% KO ratio... Patterson fought bigger and better Heavyweights than Walcott did which held his KO average down... but anyone his size such as Archie Moore was pretty much going out fast and hard.

Though a really nice stat to play around with, KO ratios aren't necessarily an accurate indication of how hard somebody hits, nor do they take into account the level of opposition faced.

Like a Boss wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 00:53

Kalan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 00:34

Scypion wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:18 Regarding Jersey Joe Walcott, I will say that he could hit. He knocked down Joe Louis in both of their fights and hit Charles with one of the hardest punches I have ever seen. I don't think that there are many that could have gotten up from that punch to beat the count and Charles started to but then fell backwards.

Of course, Walcott was younger when he fought Louis and Charles than when he fought Rocky.

I disagree on Walcott being a hard hitter... He certainly was a decent hitter.

Floyd Patterson hit Ingemar Johansson---a bigger man than Charles---with a much harder left left hook and Floyd was the only man to stop Ingo -- a few men stopped Charles... Walcott had a 45% KO ratio, which is middling...

Looking at a basket of hitters: Anthony Joshua has a 100% KO ratio.... Vitali Klitschko had a 87% KO ratio.... George Foreman had a 84% KO ratio... Joe Louis had a 75% KO ratio.... Bob Fitzsimmons had a 71% KO ratio.... Wladimir Klitschko had a 77% KO ratio.... and Floyd Patterson had a 63% KO ratio... Patterson fought bigger and better Heavyweights than Walcott did which held his KO average down... but anyone his size such as Archie Moore was pretty much going out fast and hard.

Though a really nice stat to play around with, KO ratios aren't necessarily an accurate indication of how hard somebody hits, nor do they take into account the level of opposition faced.

Scypion wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 13:43 Ezzard Charles was only knocked out once prior to the Walcott KO in Ezzard's 77th fight, and that was by Lloyd Marshall after Charles was in the army. Ezzard also lost to Jimmy Bivins while in the army. I happen to know that military training is not good for boxing. Charles knocked out Marshall twice after the war and beat Bivins 4 times.

Before the army, Ezzard Charles beat Charley Burley twice, so I would not hold those losses while in the army too much against him. I don't know how much of a factor his ALS had, if any, on the Walcott KO. I saw that fight on film and know that Charles really caught a shot from Jersey Joe. Ezzard lost 4 more fights prior to the Marciano fight after that, so maybe the ALS was a factor. Maybe his reflexes were not as good any more.

Charles weighed 160 lbs. and 161 1/2 lbs. in his two fights with Charley Burley, so he was still really a middleweight for those fights.

Kalan wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 14:36

MackVelli wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 09:16 Marciano too strong for Ellis & administers the type of pressure that breaks Jimmy down. Ellis had the pinpoint power at times but did not have the power or ability of Walcott or Charles. Ellis started as a middleweight as did Archie Moore but IMO Archie would beat Ellis as well. Marciano by KO by the 5th

Moore didn't start as a Middleweight... He started at Welterweight and was much smaller than Ellis... Moore fought 155-pound Charley Burley when he had over 70 fights... He got knocked down 4 X by rights and hammered badly.

At his zenith Ellis had a great right hand - fast, slick, and true.. For a cross armed defense it was deadly.. Ellis outgrew the Light Heavyweight Division and Moore never did... Ellis won the Heavyweight Title and Moore tried twice - but was run over by really small opponents... Moore was very easy to hit with rights and was knocked out by Charles, Marciano, Patterson, and Clay... Most Heavy Champs with any skill level would shittcan the cross armed defender.. The Jerry Quarry who stopped Thad Spencer would probably get rid of Moore in a couple rounds.. Ellis beat Quarry with ease.

Kalan wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 13:26 If Walcott had so much left he wouldn't have quit.... He said his body couldn't do it anymore and I take the word that comes from the horse's mouth.... Marciano was his last fight... He was 39 and kaput... Based on their 1st fight a younger Walcott would have beaten Marciano with ease. He was winning on all cards but he couldn't take punishment anymore.

Now, this is frequently the case for men 38 and older... The resiliency of youth that absorbs punishment like a soccer ball is no longer there as they get into their late 30's.. Their chin turns into a blown up paper bag that explodes with a hand clap... Moderate to heavy punches from a 184-pounder start to putting them away after absorbing them for 13 rounds.

And the Charles who won 40 straight fights over the best, most skilled, and fastest boxers in the world at Light Heavyweight -- and won his first 9 Heavyweight Title Fights in a row (more than Marciano or Walcott fought) including his first 2 Walcott fights was suffering the first inroads of deadly ALS - the wicked nerve disease that can take 25 years to finish you off -- and might not be diagnosed until you're stumbling around losing your balance.

At first ALS creeps along at a slow pace deteriorating your coordination and reflexes by 3 to 5%... After a couple years its 10 or 15%... You lose a couple fights to a guy who you beat before.. You don't feel sharp.. You get more rest and train harder.. You bring your focus up thinking maybe you're just getting older - even though you're only 30.. By use of knowledge and craft you beat some 2nd raters, but pretty soon your reactions and coordination are reduced by over 30% and you lose fights to novice Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson and the poorly skilled Heavyweight Nino Valdes... The following year you lose to Marciano. Things are starting to get really bad... Not long afterwards Charles started to lose to boxers he wouldn't hire as sparring partners at his peak.. His massive will to win couldn't overcome his condition.. Eventually he was forced to quit Boxing.. One day he couldn't hold a fork in his hand.. Doctors did extensive tests and found the problem... It's incurable... Look at the miserable state of Stephen Hawking and other poor souls with ALS .... It took Charles' life at 53.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 16:06

Kalan wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 14:36

MackVelli wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 09:16 Marciano too strong for Ellis & administers the type of pressure that breaks Jimmy down. Ellis had the pinpoint power at times but did not have the power or ability of Walcott or Charles. Ellis started as a middleweight as did Archie Moore but IMO Archie would beat Ellis as well. Marciano by KO by the 5th

Moore didn't start as a Middleweight... He started at Welterweight and was much smaller than Ellis... Moore fought 155-pound Charley Burley when he had over 70 fights... He got knocked down 4 X by rights and hammered badly.

At his zenith Ellis had a great right hand - fast, slick, and true.. For a cross armed defense it was deadly.. Ellis outgrew the Light Heavyweight Division and Moore never did... Ellis won the Heavyweight Title and Moore tried twice - but was run over by really small opponents... Moore was very easy to hit with rights and was knocked out by Charles, Marciano, Patterson, and Clay... Most Heavy Champs with any skill level would shittcan the cross armed defender.. The Jerry Quarry who stopped Thad Spencer would probably get rid of Moore in a couple rounds.. Ellis beat Quarry with ease.

But Norton's "cross armed defense is just fine against Frazier? That seems damn near inconsistent in your thinking. (for lack of a better descriptor.)

Also.....A bad day at the office is not a career definer, that's just a goofy notion.. For example with Durell, it could have been all over in a single lucky punch...(.as many fights are. ) But as it turned out Archie's day at the office ON THAT DAY was just beginning. So you have to be a little deeper in your nogginizing than you are currently demonstrating.

For example.....you are a pretty damn good contributor to this forum on occasion. But some days you just plain stink the place up. But reasonable people (such as myself) don't judge others by their worst moments. So in my book, you are a very giftedly average contributor.....and not the "despicable me" of the forum by any means. I don't care what anyone else says, you are genuinely "just ok" in my book.

Never forget that.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 16:06

Kalan wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 14:36

MackVelli wrote: ↑12 Mar 2018, 09:16 Marciano too strong for Ellis & administers the type of pressure that breaks Jimmy down. Ellis had the pinpoint power at times but did not have the power or ability of Walcott or Charles. Ellis started as a middleweight as did Archie Moore but IMO Archie would beat Ellis as well. Marciano by KO by the 5th

Moore didn't start as a Middleweight... He started at Welterweight and was much smaller than Ellis... Moore fought 155-pound Charley Burley when he had over 70 fights... He got knocked down 4 X by rights and hammered badly.

At his zenith Ellis had a great right hand - fast, slick, and true.. For a cross armed defense it was deadly.. Ellis outgrew the Light Heavyweight Division and Moore never did... Ellis won the Heavyweight Title and Moore tried twice - but was run over by really small opponents... Moore was very easy to hit with rights and was knocked out by Charles, Marciano, Patterson, and Clay... Most Heavy Champs with any skill level would shittcan the cross armed defender.. The Jerry Quarry who stopped Thad Spencer would probably get rid of Moore in a couple rounds.. Ellis beat Quarry with ease.

But Norton's "cross armed defense is just fine against Frazier? That seems damn near inconsistent in your thinking. (for lack of a better descriptor.)

Also.....A bad day at the office is not a career definer, that's just a goofy notion.. For example with Durell, it could have been all over in a single lucky punch...(.as many fights are. ) But as it turned out Archie's day at the office ON THAT DAY was just beginning. So you have to be a little deeper in your nogginizing than you are currently demonstrating.

For example.....you are a pretty damn good contributor to this forum on occasion. But some days you just plain stink the place up. But reasonable people (such as myself) don't judge others by their worst moments. So in my book, you are a very giftedly average contributor.....and not the "despicable me" of the forum by any means. I don't care what anyone else says, you are genuinely "just ok" in my book. Never forget that.