BoxRec

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 14:39 Yes I'm sure. I don't think most would argue that Ali and Joe Louis are 1 and 1a. Where you rank who is debatable, but they're USUALLY the slam dunks for the Top 2. Rightfully so.

From there it's a lot more debatable, but I tried to rank them all fairly.

I'm contradicting my earlier comment too because I said that I didn't believe Povetkin would rank among the Top 30 at Heayweight initially, but upon making a Top 20 list I can't honestly say I can easily think of 10 guys who were DEFINITELY better than him.

There's a whole slew of Heavyweights who are right there with him, and had no better or no worse of a career than he's had.

LOL! Ok...It's funny how tough it gets when you actually go through the list. I can't stand it! (but I can't stand being away from it). I'm sure there are "Povetkins" in other eras. Maybe one or two fights will settle matters regarding him. Nice stuff EPIC!

oogiebe wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 14:41

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 14:39 Yes I'm sure. I don't think most would argue that Ali and Joe Louis are 1 and 1a. Where you rank who is debatable, but they're USUALLY the slam dunks for the Top 2. Rightfully so.

From there it's a lot more debatable, but I tried to rank them all fairly.

I'm contradicting my earlier comment too because I said that I didn't believe Povetkin would rank among the Top 30 at Heayweight initially, but upon making a Top 20 list I can't honestly say I can easily think of 10 guys who were DEFINITELY better than him.

There's a whole slew of Heavyweights who are right there with him, and had no better or no worse of a career than he's had.

LOL! Ok...It's funny how tough it gets when you actually go through the list. I can't stand it! (but I can't stand being away from it). I'm sure there are "Povetkins" in other eras. Maybe one or two fights will settle matters regarding him. Nice stuff EPIC!

Guys like Jersey Joe Walcott, Hasim Rahman, Jerry Quarry, and all that would be the types of names that would be filling out the list from there, and like I say I don't think anybody can honestly say they can't imagine Povetkin holding his own against any of those guys.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 14:45

oogiebe wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 14:41

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 14:39 Yes I'm sure. I don't think most would argue that Ali and Joe Louis are 1 and 1a. Where you rank who is debatable, but they're USUALLY the slam dunks for the Top 2. Rightfully so.

From there it's a lot more debatable, but I tried to rank them all fairly.

I'm contradicting my earlier comment too because I said that I didn't believe Povetkin would rank among the Top 30 at Heayweight initially, but upon making a Top 20 list I can't honestly say I can easily think of 10 guys who were DEFINITELY better than him.

There's a whole slew of Heavyweights who are right there with him, and had no better or no worse of a career than he's had.

LOL! Ok...It's funny how tough it gets when you actually go through the list. I can't stand it! (but I can't stand being away from it). I'm sure there are "Povetkins" in other eras. Maybe one or two fights will settle matters regarding him. Nice stuff EPIC!

Guys like Jersey Joe Walcott, Hasim Rahman, Jerry Quarry, and all that would be the types of names that would be filling out the list from there, and like I say I don't think anybody can honestly say they can't imagine Povetkin holding his own against any of those guys.

Don't get me wrong. I can't sit back and criticize as I've not done the work. It's too easy to sit back and say what's wrong. You list is as good as anyone's. Perhaps the fairest thing to say is that Povetkin could've beaten many of them on a given night and vice versa.

The guys from the Top 15 or 16 on down.

I don't think he'd do too well against most of the very best guys on the list at least in terms of winning fights. He could probably hold his own in most cases though. It's not like he's a bum.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 14:50 The guys from the Top 15 or 16 on down.

I don't think he'd do too well against most of the very best guys on the list at least in terms of winning fights. He could probably hold his own in most cases though. It's not like he's a bum.

I could agree with that. Sounds reasonable. Very tough question.

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 13:14

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 12:50

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 08:24
And where do you rank them?

Quite close near the top, it also matters what way you look at it, do you compare it in their own era or in the current era. Because that's a world of difference.

All eras since John L. Sullivan

I think the whole heavyweight division improves all the time, so the 1920 heavyweights have no chance against the 1960s, the 60's no chance compared to 70's, all the way till right now, I think Povetkin in his prime was better as Mike Tyson in his prime. The Klitschko's are probably the only exception, those 250pounders could join the current top heavyweights. I rank Povetkin in the top 8 ish in history in his prime. I think he's still top 5 of the current division, but not for long, I expect him to be rank 10 next year and rank 15 the year after.

Povetkin will be a footnote in heavyweight boxing history.

Ranking him in or around the top 20 of all time is bonkers.

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 15:20

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 13:14

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 12:50
Quite close near the top, it also matters what way you look at it, do you compare it in their own era or in the current era. Because that's a world of difference.

All eras since John L. Sullivan

I think the whole heavyweight division improves all the time, so the 1920 heavyweights have no chance against the 1960s, the 60's no chance compared to 70's, all the way till right now, I think Povetkin in his prime was better as Mike Tyson in his prime. The Klitschko's are probably the only exception, those 250pounders could join the current top heavyweights. I rank Povetkin in the top 8 ish in history in his prime. I think he's still top 5 of the current division, but not for long, I expect him to be rank 10 next year and rank 15 the year after.

That's not how I rank fighters historically. I rank them on achievements in their own era compared with other fighters in their eras. Ranking on a bigger is better basis is a bit presumptious.

Ranking Povetkin as 8th best heavyweight of all time is different, I'll give you that.

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 15:20

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 13:14

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 12:50
Quite close near the top, it also matters what way you look at it, do you compare it in their own era or in the current era. Because that's a world of difference.

All eras since John L. Sullivan

I think the whole heavyweight division improves all the time, so the 1920 heavyweights have no chance against the 1960s, the 60's no chance compared to 70's, all the way till right now, I think Povetkin in his prime was better as Mike Tyson in his prime. The Klitschko's are probably the only exception, those 250pounders could join the current top heavyweights. I rank Povetkin in the top 8 ish in history in his prime. I think he's still top 5 of the current division, but not for long, I expect him to be rank 10 next year and rank 15 the year after.

Out of morbid curiosity could you list your top 20 all time heavyweights?
I am intrigued

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 15:20I rank Povetkin in the top 8 ish in history in his prime. I think he's still top 5 of the current division

You think prime Povetkin is top 8 of all-time, but past-prime Povetkin is top 5 of the current scene?? That's like saying you think Neptune is one of the 5 largest objects in our solar system, but Saturn is probably one of the 8 largest objects in our galaxy.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 17:34

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 15:20

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 13:14
All eras since John L. Sullivan

I think the whole heavyweight division improves all the time, so the 1920 heavyweights have no chance against the 1960s, the 60's no chance compared to 70's, all the way till right now, I think Povetkin in his prime was better as Mike Tyson in his prime. The Klitschko's are probably the only exception, those 250pounders could join the current top heavyweights. I rank Povetkin in the top 8 ish in history in his prime. I think he's still top 5 of the current division, but not for long, I expect him to be rank 10 next year and rank 15 the year after.

Out of morbid curiosity could you list your top 20 all time heavyweights?
I am intrigued

Drawing conclusions from his quoted post, I'm pretty sure his top 20 all-time is like... 17 current fighters, 2 Klitschkos, and Lennox Lewis.

Lackeos wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 18:23

tiny_acres wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 17:34

asdfjkl wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 15:20
I think the whole heavyweight division improves all the time, so the 1920 heavyweights have no chance against the 1960s, the 60's no chance compared to 70's, all the way till right now, I think Povetkin in his prime was better as Mike Tyson in his prime. The Klitschko's are probably the only exception, those 250pounders could join the current top heavyweights. I rank Povetkin in the top 8 ish in history in his prime. I think he's still top 5 of the current division, but not for long, I expect him to be rank 10 next year and rank 15 the year after.

Out of morbid curiosity could you list your top 20 all time heavyweights?
I am intrigued

Drawing conclusions from his quoted post, I'm pretty sure his top 20 all-time is like... 17 current fighters, 2 Klitschkos, and Lennox Lewis.

Probably but I'm very curious to see it.
Kind of like circling the block to see the car crash survivors

From a head to head sense, higher than pretty much every other 'small heavyweight' like Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and etc. Small heavyweights such as these and super heavyweights like the Klitschkos should be separated for distinction.

Povetkin beats pretty much every other 'small heavyweight' around his size. The only boxers I'd ever favor over him are the top / skilled super heavyweights like the Klitschko brothers, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua and probably Kubrat Pulev.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 21:11

klitoris wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 20:56 In the Klitschko's era he's probably 4th best behind Haye (and Wlad & Vitali).

Haye vs. Povetkin was the one fight we unfortunately were never able to see.

I'd honestly rate him above Hate at heavyweight. Of the Kiltschko era he's 3rd

haha I'm no Haye lover but prime Haye would spank prime Povetkin all day long

Luis Fernando12 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 18:59 From a head to head sense, higher than pretty much every other 'small heavyweight' like Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and etc. Small heavyweights such as these and super heavyweights like the Klitschkos should be separated for distinction.

Povetkin beats pretty much every other 'small heavyweight' around his size. The only boxers I'd ever favor over him are the top / skilled super heavyweights like the Klitschko brothers, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua and probably Kubrat Pulev.

Would he beat Foreman, Bowe, Wilder and Fury, in your opinion?

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:20

Luis Fernando12 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 18:59 From a head to head sense, higher than pretty much every other 'small heavyweight' like Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and etc. Small heavyweights such as these and super heavyweights like the Klitschkos should be separated for distinction.

Povetkin beats pretty much every other 'small heavyweight' around his size. The only boxers I'd ever favor over him are the top / skilled super heavyweights like the Klitschko brothers, Lennox Lewis, Anthony Joshua and probably Kubrat Pulev.

Would he beat Foreman, Bowe, Wilder and Fury, in your opinion?

Fury? Probably not!

Wilder? I'll make him the slight favorite.

Bowe? I think he'd beat Bowe worse than Golota did and he'd do it cleanly without low blows. And if Holyfield had Povetkin's power, Holyfield would also have beaten Bowe.

George Foreman? Povetkin would beat him easily. The easiest fight from the list.

danconnollyeire wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:19

tiny_acres wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 21:11

klitoris wrote: ↑01 Apr 2018, 20:56 In the Klitschko's era he's probably 4th best behind Haye (and Wlad & Vitali).

Haye vs. Povetkin was the one fight we unfortunately were never able to see.

I'd honestly rate him above Hate at heavyweight. Of the Kiltschko era he's 3rd

haha I'm no Haye lover but prime Haye would spank prime Povetkin all day long

I agree. I think prime Haye was too fast and too agile for Povetkin. Haye was more competetive against Steward-trainer 35 y.o Wlad than Povetkin was against Banks-trained 37 y.o. Wlad. But Povetkin has much deeper HW resume comparing to Haye, so I rank him higher although I think Haye would beat him prime for prime.

haye was good but at hw hard to ignore just how lttle substance there was compared to the massve hype he was gettng.

jamamb wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:29 haye was good but at hw hard to ignore just how lttle substance there was compared to the massve hype he was gettng.

nailed it!!!!

Haye is totally unproven at heavyweight. Povetkin would beat Haye on activity and work rate alone. Just like how he beat Eddie Chambers. Chambers has a better heavyweight resume than Haye and I think even Chagaev might beat Haye.

Luis Fernando12 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:38 Haye is totally unproven at heavyweight. Povetkin would beat Haye on activity and work rate alone. Just like how he beat Eddie Chambers. Chambers has a better heavyweight resume than Haye and I think even Chagaev might beat Haye.

Yeah...you are probably right. Chagaev is one tough SOB too.

Luis Fernando12 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:38 Haye is totally unproven at heavyweight. Povetkin would beat Haye on activity and work rate alone. Just like how he beat Eddie Chambers. Chambers has a better heavyweight resume than Haye and I think even Chagaev might beat Haye.

I disagree on Haye being "totally unproven" at HW. He did way better against Wlad comparing to Povetkin (and mind here, Haye was fighting better version of Wlad). Also, he still is the only guy who knocked down Chisora. Valuev is unskilled freak, but hurting badly 330 lbs 7 feet tall guy who was never hurt before shows us that Haye had enough power to hurt even super-sized HWs. Haye's HW resume is thin though comparing to Povetkin's one

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:52

Luis Fernando12 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:38 Haye is totally unproven at heavyweight. Povetkin would beat Haye on activity and work rate alone. Just like how he beat Eddie Chambers. Chambers has a better heavyweight resume than Haye and I think even Chagaev might beat Haye.

I disagree on Haye being "totally unproven" at HW. He did way better against Wlad comparing to Povetkin (and mind here, Haye was fighting better version of Wlad). Also, he still is the only guy who knocked down Chisora. Valuev is unskilled freak, but hurting badly 330 lbs 7 feet tall guy who was never hurt before shows us that Haye had the power even against super-sized HWs. Haye's HW resume is thin though comparing to Povetkin

If you average both viewpoints, it may be a pretty good matchup!

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:52

Luis Fernando12 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2018, 19:38 Haye is totally unproven at heavyweight. Povetkin would beat Haye on activity and work rate alone. Just like how he beat Eddie Chambers. Chambers has a better heavyweight resume than Haye and I think even Chagaev might beat Haye.

I disagree on Haye being "totally unproven" at HW. He did way better against Wlad comparing to Povetkin (and mind here, Haye was fighting better version of Wlad). Also, he still is the only guy who knocked down Chisora. Valuev is unskilled freak, but hurting badly 330 lbs 7 feet tall guy who was never hurt before shows as that Haye had the power even against super-sized HWs. Haye's HW resume is thin though comparing to Povetkin

Haye lost every round against Wlad and just came to survive whilst running away. Povetkin came to fight and Wlad was forced to hold and grapple Povetkin to defend himself against Povetkin. I know who did better (offensively at the very least). Wlad didn't have to hold Haye because Haye wasn't as much of a threat whilst Povetkin posed a far bigger threat.

Povetkin knocked out Carlos Takam, who is superior to Dereck Chisora in every department and nobody else KO'ed Takam previously or after. Even Haye himself said that Takam is Chisora x3 after sparring him before his fight against Chisora.

Povetkin is a lot more proven at heavyweight than Haye. No contest! Haye has horrible stamina and work rate compared to Povetkin. Povetkin would beat Haye on work rate alone.

I think both Eddie Chambers and Ruslan Chagaev could beat David Haye too.

ppl make to much deal out of haye hurting valuev, john ruiz, gerald nobles, and jf bergeron hurt valuev too. ppl just think 'massive guy, must have great chin';

but the way haye blasted out chisora was really impressive, haye obviously still had top level power at hw, along with very good speed and reflexes, etc. he stacks up much better in head to head hypothetical fights then he does in actual record strength, so it depends on what basis your ranking fighters