Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 11:26
Maybe Frazier could beat Ali in a street fight....but he wouldn't beat too many.... Even a guy like Foreman would do him in with knees, elbows, fists, and just his greater size and strength....
According to witnesses, Holmes and Berbick were throwing down like there was no tomorrow.
I agree Kalan. the smaller guys, for the most part, would be at a disadvantage in the streets. LOL on Holmes and Berbick. WE forget that fight too quickly (except you of course). A true slugfest. Holmes abandoned or was forced to abandon his skill set.
Great reference! Dempsey would be a huge exception IMHO.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 04 May 2018, 14:20
by Caractacus
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 04 May 2018, 14:22
by oogiebe
"I can beat you singing" Line of the call! Great post, thanks for sharing!!!!
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 04 May 2018, 20:00
by elmersalsa
Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 11:26
Maybe Frazier could beat Ali in a street fight....but he wouldn't beat too many.... Even a guy like Foreman would do him in with knees, elbows, fists, and just his greater size and strength....
According to witnesses, Holmes and Berbick were throwing down like there was no tomorrow.
I guess that there was never a bigger rivalry in the world of sports.
Now I can see why Howard Cossell separated Roberto Duran and Sugar Ray Leonard in the ABC Studios after the first fight in Montreal. He probably thought that Duran would act the fool and do the same like Smokin'Joe, invite Leonard to a fist fight.
Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 11:26
Maybe Frazier could beat Ali in a street fight....but he wouldn't beat too many.... Even a guy like Foreman would do him in with knees, elbows, fists, and just his greater size and strength....
According to witnesses, Holmes and Berbick were throwing down like there was no tomorrow.
You don't like the great Joe Frazier.
What's not to like? ... He was so articulate, humble, and he could sing so well.... Not to mention his boxing managerial skills in how he guided Marvis Frazier's and Duane Bobick's fistic fortunes.... What a guy.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 07:48
by HomicideHenry
I know that the hate was real... But... The fact that not a single punch was thrown makes me doubt that the scuffle was absolutely for real.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 10:01
by Kalan
Yeah that was no street fight... That was playground antics no Holmes-Berbick free-for-all.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 13:27
by elmersalsa
Ali was the one that started grabbing Frazier by the neck. And both went down. By the time they were on the floor, all security personnel was there restraining them off. So, there was no punches thrown, but there was a fight. A real street fight.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 13:31
by oogiebe
elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 13:27
Ali was the one that started grabbing Frazier by the neck. And both went down. By the time they were on the floor, all security personnel was there restraining them off. So, there was no punches thrown, but there was a fight. A real street fight.
So oddly enough and to Kalan's point, even in a street fight, Ali was holding! LMFAO!!!! PS: You are right, I remember that!!!
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 15:35
by Kalan
If somebody grabs your head in a street fight it's the dumbest thing ever... You immediately smash them in the kidney with a hammer blow on that side... If you have tremendous swinging power their kidney is goat cheese... It won't take more than 1 hammer blow to the kidney and they'll let go... but drive 2 or 3 in there to make sure the organ is gone.
But In Joe's situation you wouldn't want to disable Ali... He's a walking paycheck... So instead put both hands in a peek-a-boo D and drive them straight up... If you have brutal strength this frees you immediately... Then you bring both fists down with hammer blows on Ali's head... That's pisses the Hell out of him, but it won't hurt him bad... Then you shout at him in an unrestrained manner like you want to kill him... That's the last thing you'd ever want, but it's a psyche job.
Ali was contemptuous of Frazier because he's a little guy... You don't want a little guy thinking he can beat you.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 15:38
by oogiebe
Kalan wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 15:35
If somebody grabs your head in a street fight it's the dumbest thing ever... You immediately smash them in the kidney with a hammer blow on that side... If you have tremendous swinging power their kidney is goat cheese... It won't take more than 1 hammer blow to the kidney and they'll let go... but drive 2 or 3 in there to make sure the organ is wrecked.
But In Joe's situation you wouldn't want to disable Ali... He's a walking paycheck... So instead put both hands in a peek-a-boo D and drive them straight up... If you have brutal strength this frees you immediately... Then you bring both fists down with hammer blows on Ali's head... That's pisses the Hell out of him, but it won't hurt him bad... Then you shout at him in an unrestrained manner like you want to kill him... That's the last thing you'd ever want, but it's a psyche job.
Ali was contemptuous of Frazier because he's a little guy... You don't want a little guy thinking he can beat you.
Depends how. I can wrap you up and choke you out in a street fight. I can drag your shirt halfway over yourself and pummel you to death...I can hold behind your head and at the same time, kick your teeth out with a knee. All worse than a body shot.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:02
by Kalan
If you grab somebody's head from the front you can drive a knee to their jaw...if they're that slow.. But before you can get that done they can smash you in the side of the head with a left or right hook if they have any speed...
And ANY time somebody grabs your head from the front and tries to pull your head down their chin or face is wide open for palm and finger strikes from underneath.
And my shirt would be shreds before I let somebody start pull it over my head.. I'd put his eyes out.. It's like your playing basketball and somebody pulls on your shorts.. You let him know right away that's not going to work, even if you get kicked out of the game.. Sometimes you see 2 guys on the same team staring each other down.. It's an Alpha Male thing.
But Ali grabbed Frazier in a head lock.. That's where the kidney shots come in.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:05
by oogiebe
Kalan wrote: ↑05 May 2018, 16:02
If you grab somebody's head from the front you can drive a knee to their jaw...if they're that slow.. But before you can get that done they can smash you in the side of the head with a left or right hook if they have any speed...
And ANY time somebody grabs your head from the front and tries to pull your head down their chin or face is wide open for palm and finger strikes from underneath.
And my shirt would be shreds before I let somebody start pull it over my head.. I'd put his eyes out.. It's like your playing basketball and somebody pulls on your shorts.. You let him know right away that's not going to work, even if you get kicked out of the game.. Sometimes you see 2 guys on the same team staring each other down.. It's an Alpha Male thing.
But Ali grabbed Frazier in a head lock.. That's where the kidney shots come in.
Ok.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 05 May 2018, 16:05
by oogiebe
Best approach. Hit the guy talking.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 06 May 2018, 01:03
by Kalan
LOL... Right, with their mouth going... Some talk through their teeth to avoid getting their jaw busted.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 06 May 2018, 10:15
by oogiebe
Kalan wrote: ↑06 May 2018, 01:03
LOL... Right, with their mouth going... Some talk through their teeth to avoid getting their jaw busted.
That's when you know you're in trouble! I actually had a guy spit out a tooth and smirk at me...it portended bad news for Oogiebe! LMAO! Funny how we remember stuff!
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 06 May 2018, 13:54
by Kalan
Yeah.... I once hit a big guy in the cheek with a roundhouse swinging left, so hard I felt a terrific jolt of electricity throughout my body... He went down but he wasn't out.. His face had to be redone.. He said "Joe.. Help me" and his buddy drives at me with fists flying.. He was a lot quicker with his fists than the big guy and got me with a couple... Meanwhile his buddy was trying to lurch to his feet for a 2 on 1... Luckily l landed a real good shot on "Joe" and finished him before that could happen.
I had a buddy who was a very good undefeated professional boxer until he got into a street fight with a couple toughs... He was beaten so badly they gave him Extreme Unction....which is the Last Rites they give a Catholic before he dies... He eventually survived but his career was ruined because he couldn't take a punch... After that I calmed down a bit.
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 06 May 2018, 13:58
by gilgamesh
elmersalsa wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 15:31
Anybody remember this? It happened days before their rematch of January 29, 1974.
That's the thing where Joe just kinda bearhugged him, and they fell to the floor, and somebody separated them right?
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 06 May 2018, 14:00
by gilgamesh
I always really loved this photo. Because it kinda sums up the difference in their personalities. Ali with a crowd around him, screaming in the window. Frazier, dead serious, looking pissed off like he CAN'T WAIT to shut that mouth for Ali. If you could sum up their rivalry in a photograph this would be the one.
elmersalsa wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 15:31
Anybody remember this? It happened days before their rematch of January 29, 1974.
That's the thing where Joe just kinda bearhugged him, and they fell to the floor, and somebody separated them right?
It was real to Frazier and staged to Ali. To the end of his life, Frazier talked sadly about being called ignorant and never understood why Ali was so mean spirited. Well documented (actual vid on Frazier discussing it.) If you want to see it, go search for yourself. I was watching that live and my dad had to explain what ignorance was as I was just a lad.
elmersalsa wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 15:31
Anybody remember this? It happened days before their rematch of January 29, 1974.
That's the thing where Joe just kinda bearhugged him, and they fell to the floor, and somebody separated them right?
It was real to Frazier and staged to Ali. To the end of his life, Frazier talked sadly about being called ignorant and never understood why Ali was so mean spirited. Well documented (actual vid on Frazier discussing it.) If you want to see it, go search for yourself. I was watching that live and my dad had to explain what ignorance was as I was just a lad.
I've see Docs on the Ali/Frazier feud. I've never solely watched that clip, but I've seen footage of the fight on various documentaries.
To me the thing that was said in one of the Docs that sums up more than anything anyone could ever say the level of hatred that Joe held in his heart for Ali is this.
When asked "Would you have come out for the 15th round in the Thrilla even if it meant your life?"
Joe, after a long pause "...Yes"
And you could tell he was speaking with 100% sincerity. He'd rather have died than given Ali the satisfaction that he stopped in the fight. Another thing that shows how serious he was, is that he never spoke to his trainer that stopped that fight ever again for the rest of his life.
Or at least he never had any friendly words or conversation with him. I don't doubt he might've cursed him in the dressing room after the fight
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 06 May 2018, 14:35
by Kalan
gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 May 2018, 14:00
I always really loved this photo. Because it kinda sums up the difference in their personalities. Ali with a crowd around him, screaming in the window. Frazier, dead serious, looking pissed off like he CAN'T WAIT to shut that mouth for Ali. If you could sum up their rivalry in a photograph this would be the one.
One of a thousand staged photos for publicity.... Publicity is the biggest part of the business .... and they did it well.
What's odd about this photo.... They're both wearing towels around their necks.... Frazier looks like he might be wearing a floral shirt of some kind with a vest over it and towel.... Ali??? I'm not sure why he needs a towel at Frazier's camp.
I remember an early publicity photo of Jack Dempsey looking all manly wielding a sledge hammer in a metal forging factory -- to show how Dempsey was hard at work for the war effort (WWI)... They put Jack in coveralls and smudged him with soot to make it look real.. Only he forgot to take off his patent leather shoes.. That phony photo followed Dempsey around for the rest of his life. “How about those patent leather shoes Champ?”
That's the thing where Joe just kinda bearhugged him, and they fell to the floor, and somebody separated them right?
It was real to Frazier and staged to Ali. To the end of his life, Frazier talked sadly about being called ignorant and never understood why Ali was so mean spirited. Well documented (actual vid on Frazier discussing it.) If you want to see it, go search for yourself. I was watching that live and my dad had to explain what ignorance was as I was just a lad.
I've see Docs on the Ali/Frazier feud. I've never solely watched that clip, but I've seen footage of the fight on various documentaries.
To me the thing that was said in one of the Docs that sums up more than anything anyone could ever say the level of hatred that Joe held in his heart for Ali is this.
When asked "Would you have come out for the 15th round in the Thrilla even if it meant your life?"
Joe, after a long pause "...Yes"
And you could tell he was speaking with 100% sincerity. He'd rather have died than given Ali the satisfaction that he stopped in the fight. Another thing that shows how serious he was, is that he never spoke to his trainer that stopped that fight ever again for the rest of his life.
Or at least he never had any friendly words or conversation with him. I don't doubt he might've cursed him in the dressing room after the fight
You got that right!
Re: The Ali vs Frazier ABC Studios Fight
Posted: 06 May 2018, 14:47
by oogiebe
The other thing we have to remember is that Ali stole the spotlight on Frazier and practically ruined any chance of Frazier enjoying his reign. Joe was miserable after the FOTC. I believe more emotionally drained than physically. An interesting fact when you think about it.
