BoxRec

if you say yes to 20, then you better also consider manuel charr a heavyweight world champ alongside aj and wilder, who will be starting his count vs fres oquendo

to me it seems most like 15 is correct

some extremists, usually old time worshippers, say it only starts from being undisputed, but i dont agree with that at all

By my count, not 20, but the most since Hagler.

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑07 May 2018, 06:13 Sturm, Martinez, and Geale wanted nothing to do with Golovkin on his way up. Blame them, not him. Golovkin is on track to surpass Hopkins as the best MW, deal with it haters.

The crafty, cagey, long armed Hopkins would have boxed Golovkin's ears off.

And the crafty, cagey, long armed Monzon would have knocked Golovkin's ears off.

You don't have to be a hater to know reality.

of course not 20 defences
say a joke: Juergen Braehmer defended Light Heavyweight TITLE for 6 times, when there were Kovalev and Stevenson

Depending on your point-of-view, GGG didn’t make his first defence of a legitimate world championship until the Daniel Geale bout, when he defended the WBA’s Super World Middleweight title, which means he’s currently only on ten title defences.

If you’re being super optimistic and looking at Golovkin’s resume from a particularly favourable perspective, by including his title fights when the WBA’s Super World Middleweight title was vacant (when he held the lightly-regarded "regular" title), then the highest figure anyone could possibly argue is that he’s currently made fifteen title defences.

The problem with the latter stance, relates to the status of the belt itself, because if Anthony Joshua, GGG and George Groves all vacated their titles today, no one would consider Manuel Charr, Ryota Murata and Tyron Zeuge as being genuine world champions until the WBA elevated them to being “Super World” titleholders... and they'd continue to be ignored by fight fans until this happened.

Also, whilst GGG’s latest victory was technically deemed as being his 20th world title defence, with Vanes Martirosyan being sanctioned by the IBO, WBA & WBC, he wasn’t rated in the top fifteen of any of those organisations at 160lbs. Personally-speaking, I regard this as a non-title fight, even though it technically was, because the Armenian had no credibility at middleweight. A similar argument can be made about GGG's title defence against Kell Brook, since he only faced a welterweight.

So GGG’s bouts against Martirosyan and Brook could potentially reduce the perceived amount of legitimate world title defences he’s made by one or two, depending on your viewpoint about the authenticity of those world championship fights. I'm pretty sure Golovkin's bouts against Rosado and Wade were under similar circumstances also.

If you really want to be pedantic and evaluate the calibre of opposition that GGG has competed against during his 21 world title bouts, at least twelve of his opponents weren’t universally regarded as being legitimate top-ten world class middleweights at the time they fought Golovkin (as per The RING or ESPN).

GGG has been 165lbs as an amateur and 160lbs as a pro for more than sixteen years, but thirteen of his title fights were against opponents that competed as either welterweights or 154lb-ers for several years as a professional prior to their bouts against Golovkin.

To make matters even worse, Gennady Golovkin has had his “world champion” status elevated three times outside of the ring and the only time he’s actually beaten a middleweight world title holder was when he captured his IBF championship against David Lemiuex, which was technically his "sixteenth" title bout.

If you compare the calibre of opposition that GGG faced for his 21 middleweight world title fights to those that Bernard Hopkins engaged in…

“The Executioner” successfully competed in 21 middleweight world title fights between 1994 & 2004 and had defeated the following world champions:

• Oscar De La Hoya
• William Joppy
• Carl Daniels
• Felix Trinidad
• Keith Holmes
• Simon Brown
• Glen Johnson
• John David Jackson

Bernard, a relative novice, had also previously fought and lost the great Roy Jones Jr. in 1993, which was his very first world title fight and he was fairly competitive in that bout.

Hopkins faced John David Jackson at a catch-weight, weighing only 156½lbs. Bernard also agreed to compete against De La Hoya at a catch-weight, weighing 156lbs.

We’ve been listening to Team Golovkin boldly proclaim for far more than five years or so that they could “easily” compete and defeat any fighter from 154lbs to 175lbs, but Hopkins actually carried out his promise, but GGG has never ventured away from his 160lbs comfort zone.

Therefore, in my eyes, Gennady Golovkin did not equal the record set by the all-time-great Bernard Hopkins when he knocked out Vanes Martirosyan last weekend.

Hell no, regular championship sucks, that stupid sh#t has been made to help organisations in gaining more money on the championship status of the bouts, but that's not being a champion.

DrDuke wrote: ↑08 May 2018, 08:41 Hell no, regular championship sucks, that stupid sh#t has been made to help organisations in gaining more money on the championship status of the bouts, but that's not being a champion.

In this particular case, it was a super champion (Sturm) who sucked. Golovkin was a real champion.

magicrp wrote: ↑08 May 2018, 02:55 of course not 20 defences
say a joke: Juergen Braehmer defended Light Heavyweight TITLE for 6 times, when there were Kovalev and Stevenson

In Braehmer's case, he was the one ducking Kovalev.

In Golovkin's case, Sturm was the ducker, so Golovkin was a real champion.

SenorPipino wrote: ↑07 May 2018, 21:46 The crafty, cagey, long armed Hopkins would have boxed Golovkin's ears off.

Like he boxed Taylor's ears off? All it took is a strong skilled opponent to beat him. Against Golovkin, Hopkins would quit like he did against Allen and Dawson.

DA1 wrote: ↑07 May 2018, 19:20

Deleted_Scenes wrote: ↑07 May 2018, 19:04

DA1 wrote: ↑07 May 2018, 17:48 Blame the WBA, not the boxer.

I have absolutely no problem doing that.

The rest of your point is perfectly valid. It's just a matter of differing opinions, that's all. It's difficult to know what the right answer is in boxing, with how disorganised everything is. I'm in my 30s, so never lived through the days of one champion, but that way seems to make a lot more sense.

I'm not overly bothered how many defences someone made anyway. Unifying all the belts is a much bigger achievement than defending one of the four a bunch of times, but it's who you beat that matters most of all.

Not that I ever want a single title,* I agree with you that unifying the belts is a bigger accomplishment. Especially if you're the one who gets the ball rolling. I don't see winning a pre-existing undisputed title, or one where one guys bring 2-3 to the table and the other brings one (and the mandatory defense disparity between the two) as being of equal footing. Plus, styles make fights afterall. You could beat THE guy but that doesn't mean you could have every guy HE fought.

*A single title works if only a few countries compete for it, the USSR and half the world weren't even trying to win a belt. Things have changed. Pro boxing is very much political: what promoter you're signed to and what their relation is with one or more of the major sanctioning bodies. Which inturn has a lot to do with what country you're from (i.e., Mexico, US and UK have a clear advantage over other countries in professional boxing in receiving title shots, especially repeat TS). The governing bodies simply can't or won't accommodate all fighters of the various regions of the world fairly (there's a reason why IBO is heavily active in Africa; whereas IBF is nonexistent there or in Latin America outside Argentina; the WBO has a minimal presence in Africa as well). Iran and Cuba are huge wrestling powers, but you won't see too many of them in MMA. Similarly, Cuba and Central-Asian republics are huge boxing powers, but you never saw many of them until recently. But their track records in the amateurs/Olympics speak for themselves.

I agree. Any single title system would require one worldwide governing body, who were totally impartial when it came to nationality, promotional allegiance etc, and based rankings and rulings solely on merit. That's not happening in today's boxing world.

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑08 May 2018, 09:38

magicrp wrote: ↑08 May 2018, 02:55 of course not 20 defences
say a joke: Juergen Braehmer defended Light Heavyweight TITLE for 6 times, when there were Kovalev and Stevenson

In Braehmer's case, he was the one ducking Kovalev.

In Golovkin's case, Sturm was the ducker, so Golovkin was a real champion.

Then you can say G is the real WBO middleweight Champion because G's team said Saunders was the "ducker". AND WBA regular champion can be divided into "real champion" and "ducker champion"

magicrp wrote: ↑13 May 2018, 02:01

boxing_rocks wrote: ↑08 May 2018, 09:38

magicrp wrote: ↑08 May 2018, 02:55 of course not 20 defences
say a joke: Juergen Braehmer defended Light Heavyweight TITLE for 6 times, when there were Kovalev and Stevenson

In Braehmer's case, he was the one ducking Kovalev.

In Golovkin's case, Sturm was the ducker, so Golovkin was a real champion.

Then you can say G is the real WBO middleweight Champion because G's team said Saunders was the "ducker". AND WBA regular champion can be divided into "real champion" and "ducker champion"

i enjoyed reading your atg top 100, have you updated it since then?

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 7#p3916897

1、Floyd Mayweather JR 次中量级 （45-0-0 26KO）KO率58% 评分4900
2、Henry Armstrong 次中量级 （150-21-10 101KO）KO率56% 评分：4700
3、Sugar Ray Robinson 中量级（173-19-6 108KO）KO率54% 评分4550
4 、Manny Pacquiao 次中量级 （55-5-2 38KO）KO率61% 评分4090
5 、Muhammad Ali 重量级 （56-5-0 37KO）KO率61% 评分3900
6 、Joe Louis 重量级 （66-3-0 52KO）KO率75% 评分3870
7 、Roy Jones Jr 次重量级 （57-8-0 40KO）KO率62% 评分3800
8 、Evander Holyfield 重量级 （44-10-2 29KO) KO率51% 评分3780
9 、Ezzard Charles 重量级 （93-25-1 52KO） KO率44% 评分3610
10、Willie Pep 羽量级 （229-11-1 65KO）KO率27% 评分3430
11、Bernard Hopkins 中量级 （54-6-2 32KO）KO率50% 评分3270
12、Benny Leonard 轻量级 （185-22-8 70KO）KO率32% 评分3200
13、Archie Moore 轻重量级 （185-23-10 131KO ）KO率60% 评分3150
14、Julio Cesar Chavez 超轻量级（107-6-2 86KO）KO率75% 评分3070
15、Barney Ross 次中量级 （74-4-3 22KO）KO率27% 评分3070
16、Oscar De La Hoya 次中量级 （39-6-0 30KO）KO率67% 评分3060
17、Lennox Lewis 重量级（41-2-1 32KO）KO率73% 评分2990
18、Carlos Monzon 中量级 （87-3-9 58KO）KO率58% 评分2810
19、Gene Tunney 重量级 （79-1-4 48KO）KO率56% 评分2790
20、Rocky Marciano 重量级 （49-0-0 43KO）KO率88% 评分2780分
21、Vladimir Klitschoko 重量级 （61-3-0 51KO）KO率80% 评分2780
22、Sugar Ray Leonard 次中量级 （36-3-1 25KO）KO率63% 评分2730
23、Emile Griffith 次中量级 （85-24-2 23KO）KO率21% 评分2690
24、Billy Conn 轻重量级 （64-11-1 15KO）KO率20% 评分2380
25、Mike Tyson 重量级 （50-6-0 44KO）KO率76% 评分2360
26、Marco Antonio Barrera 超最轻量级 （67-7-0 44KO）KO率59% 评分2280
27、Felix Trinidad 次中量级(42-3-0 35KO)KO率78% 评分2260
28、Joe Calzaghe 超中量级 （46-0-0 32KO）KO率70% 评分2260
29、Vitali Klitschko 重量级 （45-2-0 41KO）KO率87% 评分2250
30、Ike Williams 轻量级（128-24-5 61KO） KO率39% 评分2250
31、Timothy Bradley 次中量级 （31-0-0 12KO）KO率38% 评分2210
32、James Toney 重量级（72-9-3 46KO）KO率51% 评分2200
33、Juan Manuel Marquez 次中量级（55-7-1 40KO）KO率63% 评分2190
34、Nonito Donaire 超最轻量级（32-2-0 21KO）KO率62% 评分2190
35、Thomas Hearns 超次中量级 （61-5-1 48KO）KO率72% 评分2140
36、George Foreman 重量级 （76-5-0 68KO）KO率84% 评分2130
37、Marvin Hagler 中量级 (62-3-2 21KO) KO率78% 评分 2100
38、Jimmy McLarnin 次中量级（55-11-3 21KO）KO率30% 评分2100
39、Joe Frazier 重量级（32-4-1 27KO）KO率73% 评分2090
40、Freddie Steele 中量级（125-5-11 60KO）KO率42% 评分2090
41、Jose Napoles 次中量级 （81-7-0 54KO）KO率61% 评分2070
42、Michael Spinks 轻重量级 (31-1-0 21KO)KO率66% 评分2050
43、Jack Jackson 重量级 （69-11-11 35KO）KO率37% 评分1910
44、Kostya Tszyu 超轻量级 （31-2-0 25KO）KO率74% 评分1890
45、Larry Holmes 重量级 （69-6-0 44KO）KO率59% 评分1870
46、Pernell Whitaker 次中量级 (40-4-1 17KO)KO率37% 评分1850
47、Alexis Arguello 超羽量级（88-8-0 70KO）KO率73% 评分1840
48、Sandy Saddler 羽量级（144-16-2 103KO）KO率64% 评分1840
49、Miguel Cotto 超次中量级 （38-4-0 31KO）KO率74% 评分1830
50、Lou Ambers 轻量级 （91-8-7 28KO）KO率26% 评分1800
51、Riddick Bowe 重量级 (43-1-0 33KO)KO率73% 评分1770
52、Terry Norris 超次中量级（47-9-0 31KO）KO率55% 评分1750
53、Harry Greb 中量级 （261-17-19 48KO）KO率16% 评分1700
54、Jack Dempsey 重量级（58-6-11 44KO）KO率59% 评分1690
55、Erik Morales 超轻量级 （52-9-0 36KO）KO率59% 评分1690
56、 Aaron Pryor 超轻量级（39-1-0 35KO）KO率88% 评分1690
57、Gene Fullmer 中量级 （55-6-3 24KO）KO率38% 评分1670
58、Shane Mosley 超次中量级 （47-9-1 39KO） KO率67% 评分1650
59、Salvador Sanchez 羽量级 （44-1-1 32KO）KO率70% 评分1620
60、Sammy Angott 轻量级 （94-29-8 22KO）KO率17% 评分1560
61、Ronald Wright 超次中量级 （51-6-1 25KO）KO率43% 评分1560
62、Azumah Nelson 羽量级(39-6-2 28KO)KO率60% 评分1520
63、Jack Delaney 轻重量级（75-11-2 43KO）KO率48% 评分1470
64、Andre Ward 超中量级 （27-0-0 14KO） KO率52% 评分1450
65、Danny Garcia 超轻量级（27-0-0 16KO）KO率59% 评分1450
66、Naseem Hamed 羽量级（36-1-0 31KO）KO率84% 评分1430
67、Ricardo Lopez迷你轻量级（51-0-1 38KO）KO率73% 评分1420
68、Carl Froch 超中量级 （32-2-0 23KO） KO率68% 评分1420
69、Dick Tiger 中量级 （60-19-3 27KO）KO率33% 评分：1400
70、Roberto Duran 轻量级 （103-16-0 70KO）KO率59% 评分1390
71、Paul Pender 中量级 （40-6-2 20KO）KO率42% 评分1380
72、Carlos Ortiz 轻量级（61-7-1 30KO）KO率43% 评分1350
73、Vicente Saldivar 羽量级（37-3-0 26KO）KO率65% 评分1340
74、Virgil Hill 轻重量级（50-7-0 23KO）KO率40% 评分1330
75、Tommy Gibbons 轻重量级 （95-5-5 48KO）KO率45% 评分1320
76、Mike McCallum 超次中量级（49-5-1 36KO）KO率65% 评分1290
77、David Haye 重量级 （26-2-0 24KO) KO率86% 评分：1290
78、Ernesto Marcel 羽量级（40-4-2 23KO）KO率50% 评分1280
79、Ncolino Locche 超轻量级（117-4-14 14KO）KO率10% 评分1270
80、Carmen Basilio 次中量级（56-16-7 27KO）KO率34% 评分1260
81、Max Schmeling 重量级 （56-10-4 40KO）KO率57% 评分1250
82、Humberto Gonzalez最次轻量级（43-3-0 30KO）KO率65% 评分1250
83、Mickey Walker 中量级（131-26-5 60KO）KO率37% 评分1240
84、Michael Nunn 中量级（58-4-0 37KO）KO率60% 评分1220
85、Chris John 羽量级（48-1-3 22KO）KO率42% 评分1210
86、Duilio Loi 超轻量级（115-3-8 26KO）KO率21% 评分1200
87、Nino Benvenuti 中量级（82-7-1 35KO）KO率39% 评分1200
88、Rafael Herrera 最轻量级（48-9-4 20KO）KO率33% 评分1190
89、Wilfredo Gomez 超最轻量级（44-3-1 42KO）KO率88% 评分1160
90、Pone Kingpetch蝇量级（28-7-0 9KO）KO率26% 评分1100
91、Khaosai Galaxy（47-1-0 41KO）KO率85% 评分1070
92、Jung-Koo Chang最次轻量级（38-4-0 17KO）KO率40% 评分1070
93、Mikkel Kessler 超中量级 （46-3-0 35KO）KO率71% 评分1050
94、Manuel Ortiz 最轻量级（101-28-3 54KO）KO率41% 评分1050
95、 Veeraphol Sahaprom 最轻量级（66-4-2 46KO）KO率64% 评分1050
96、Fred Apostoli 中量级 （61-10-1 31KO）KO率43% 评分1040
97、Tommy Loughran 轻重量级 （121-32-14 14KO）KO率8% 评分1020
98、Matthew Saad Muhammad 轻重量级（49-16-3 35KO）KO率51% 评分1000
99、Sam LangFord 重量级（179-30-40 128KO）KO率40% 评分960
100、Felix Sturm 中量级 （39-3-2 18KO）KO率40% 评分：960