BoxRec

SenorPipino wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 16:11

oogiebe wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 15:53

SenorPipino wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 15:52 Can't see any profit in it for Miller to take on a still raw guy like Joyce.

Joyce isn't a name yet. Has just a few fights. Four. Still an amateur.

What's in it for a top 10 fighter like Big Baby to challenge Joyce?

Hearn was talking about Miller-Joshua this summer. It's unlikely to happen.

It's quite a step down for Miller to change his sights and engage in a semi-high risk/absolutely no reward matchup with Joyce.

All that doesn't change my mind. I'd still like to see it. Miller's a puss anyway.

Aren't all Big Baby's?

SenorPipino wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 15:52 Can't see any profit in it for Miller to take on a still raw guy like Joyce.

Joyce isn't a name yet. Has just a few fights. Four. Still an amateur.

What's in it for a top 10 fighter like Big Baby to challenge Joyce?

Hearn was talking about Miller-Joshua this summer. It's unlikely to happen.

It's quite a step down for Miller to change his sights and engage in a semi-high risk/absolutely no reward matchup with Joyce.

KiwiRider wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 00:26

SenorPipino wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 15:52 Can't see any profit in it for Miller to take on a still raw guy like Joyce.

Joyce isn't a name yet. Has just a few fights. Four. Still an amateur.

What's in it for a top 10 fighter like Big Baby to challenge Joyce?

Hearn was talking about Miller-Joshua this summer. It's unlikely to happen.

It's quite a step down for Miller to change his sights and engage in a semi-high risk/absolutely no reward matchup with Joyce.

Both Miller and Joyce look raw to me.
As for what's in it for Miller? Staying busy and earning $$$ mostly. He has slowly been getting in better shape, fight by fight. If he sits at the buffet waiting around for AJ, it isn't going to do him any good.

sweetviolenturge wrote: ↑22 May 2018, 12:28 Actually, I think "Kingpin" Johnson would be an OK opponent for him now even though he's badly faded & just got stopped. Then I'd bring in a Dawejko or another type of step-up opponent.

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 11:06 Apparantly Miller is asking for $4M, so i guess that's off the cards.

I have only just realised that there are Commonwealth "rankings" so i guess we can unsafely assume his defence will be one of these (i have taken out a couple that definitely wont take it):
Dave Allen
Derek Chisora
Gary Cornish
Junior Fa
Nathan Gorman
Joseph Parker
Sam Sexton
Carlos Takam
Nick Webb

That's a mixture of decent competition and a drop in competition...

African Monkey wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 13:24

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 11:06 Apparantly Miller is asking for $4M, so i guess that's off the cards.

I have only just realised that there are Commonwealth "rankings" so i guess we can unsafely assume his defence will be one of these (i have taken out a couple that definitely wont take it):
Dave Allen
Derek Chisora
Gary Cornish
Junior Fa
Nathan Gorman
Joseph Parker
Sam Sexton
Carlos Takam
Nick Webb

That's a mixture of decent competition and a drop in competition...

So either Gary Cornish or Nick Webb then....

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 14:58

African Monkey wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 13:24

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 11:06 Apparantly Miller is asking for $4M, so i guess that's off the cards.

I have only just realised that there are Commonwealth "rankings" so i guess we can unsafely assume his defence will be one of these (i have taken out a couple that definitely wont take it):
Dave Allen
Derek Chisora
Gary Cornish
Junior Fa
Nathan Gorman
Joseph Parker
Sam Sexton
Carlos Takam
Nick Webb

That's a mixture of decent competition and a drop in competition...

So either Gary Cornish or Nick Webb then....

Unfortunately, most likely..

KiwiRider wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 18:20

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 14:58

African Monkey wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 13:24
So either Gary Cornish or Nick Webb then....

Unfortunately, most likely..

So you don't think Dave Allen would take it? I know his cut was bad last time out.

African Monkey wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 04:16

KiwiRider wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 18:20

joshj909 wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 14:58

Unfortunately, most likely..

So you don't think Dave Allen would take it? I know his cut was bad last time out.

Well he's out of shape, just had a fight and has said he won't go into fights as an opponent anymore so it would be a shock if he took this fight on such short notice.

Lackeos wrote: ↑21 May 2018, 07:55 Yeah, it was insane how Leon Spinks was fighting better opponents at age 23 than Joe Joyce is fighting at age 32. You could say it's amazing that a 32-year-old has already progressed to fighting opponents as good as Lenroy Thomas. That is way better than someone like Artur Szpilka, Andy Ruiz Jr, or Tom Schwarz; who were fighting opponents of that caliber when they were 23. Or Hughie Fury, beating Rudenko when he was 20. Or Agit Kabayel, beating way better opposition at age 25. So yeah, you could say Joe Joyce is a rare breed. If Joyce has already progressed this far by age 32, imagine how good he'll be when he's 50!

jamamb wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 06:10 its just about age and boxrec points for lackeos. the clown mexicool calls everyone he disagrees with a boxrec warrior , but its truly fitting for the lacky, whose hissy fit temper tantrum over the suggestion of scwarz vs dimitrenko is one of the strangest reactions ive seen here

candyslim wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 05:49

Lackeos wrote: ↑21 May 2018, 07:55 Yeah, it was insane how Leon Spinks was fighting better opponents at age 23 than Joe Joyce is fighting at age 32. You could say it's amazing that a 32-year-old has already progressed to fighting opponents as good as Lenroy Thomas. That is way better than someone like Artur Szpilka, Andy Ruiz Jr, or Tom Schwarz; who were fighting opponents of that caliber when they were 23. Or Hughie Fury, beating Rudenko when he was 20. Or Agit Kabayel, beating way better opposition at age 25. So yeah, you could say Joe Joyce is a rare breed. If Joyce has already progressed this far by age 32, imagine how good he'll be when he's 50!

Be fair he's just turned pro after an extensive amateur career. He won the commonwealth title in his fourth fight having tried to land Chisora. Now he's gunning for Miller.

I don't know if you were trying to be funny because you are normally a good poster with a history of sensible contributions, but if you weren't then I'd suggest saving your criticism for those who deserve it, such as Trevor Bryan, LaRon Mitchell, Michael Wallisch, Bogdan Dinu or even Andy Ruiz Jnr. for example.

sweetviolenturge wrote: ↑21 May 2018, 03:07 I'm finding the way in which the "Juggernaught'" is going about his career very, very interesting. I don't recall a heavyweight being fast-tracked in this manner since Leon Spinks & even Leon started out fighting club fighters in six round bouts at the beginning of his career. He didn't fight his first ten round main event until he met Scott Ledoux in his sixth pro fight while Joyce fought a ten rounder right away in his pro debut. And having won the Commonwealth title in just his fourth pro contest Joyce fought a scheduled 12 rounder sooner than any other heavyweight that I can recall.
I wonder who's next? Hopefully, his people will be able to convince Dereck Chisora to take the fight. That will be an excellent barometer for Joyce. If he struggles ( or loses, of course ) then they know that it'll be time to slow things down & allow him to learn with a few more fights before stepping him up again. But, if he should KO Chisora then a top ten contender should follow within another fight or two.
If Chisora elects to not take the fight then Joyce's people should bring in someone like a Christian Hammer. A decent, experienced heavyweight who took Tyson deep & went 12 full rounds with Povetkin. A victory over him would be equitable to a win over Chisora.

HeavyHitters wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 11:05

sweetviolenturge wrote: ↑21 May 2018, 03:07 I'm finding the way in which the "Juggernaught'" is going about his career very, very interesting. I don't recall a heavyweight being fast-tracked in this manner since Leon Spinks & even Leon started out fighting club fighters in six round bouts at the beginning of his career. He didn't fight his first ten round main event until he met Scott Ledoux in his sixth pro fight while Joyce fought a ten rounder right away in his pro debut. And having won the Commonwealth title in just his fourth pro contest Joyce fought a scheduled 12 rounder sooner than any other heavyweight that I can recall.
I wonder who's next? Hopefully, his people will be able to convince Dereck Chisora to take the fight. That will be an excellent barometer for Joyce. If he struggles ( or loses, of course ) then they know that it'll be time to slow things down & allow him to learn with a few more fights before stepping him up again. But, if he should KO Chisora then a top ten contender should follow within another fight or two.
If Chisora elects to not take the fight then Joyce's people should bring in someone like a Christian Hammer. A decent, experienced heavyweight who took Tyson deep & went 12 full rounds with Povetkin. A victory over him would be equitable to a win over Chisora.

You don't remember a guy named Mike Tyson??

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 11:07

HeavyHitters wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 11:05

sweetviolenturge wrote: ↑21 May 2018, 03:07 I'm finding the way in which the "Juggernaught'" is going about his career very, very interesting. I don't recall a heavyweight being fast-tracked in this manner since Leon Spinks & even Leon started out fighting club fighters in six round bouts at the beginning of his career. He didn't fight his first ten round main event until he met Scott Ledoux in his sixth pro fight while Joyce fought a ten rounder right away in his pro debut. And having won the Commonwealth title in just his fourth pro contest Joyce fought a scheduled 12 rounder sooner than any other heavyweight that I can recall.
I wonder who's next? Hopefully, his people will be able to convince Dereck Chisora to take the fight. That will be an excellent barometer for Joyce. If he struggles ( or loses, of course ) then they know that it'll be time to slow things down & allow him to learn with a few more fights before stepping him up again. But, if he should KO Chisora then a top ten contender should follow within another fight or two.
If Chisora elects to not take the fight then Joyce's people should bring in someone like a Christian Hammer. A decent, experienced heavyweight who took Tyson deep & went 12 full rounds with Povetkin. A victory over him would be equitable to a win over Chisora.

You don't remember a guy named Mike Tyson??

(among others)

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 14:20

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 11:07

HeavyHitters wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 11:05

You don't remember a guy named Mike Tyson??

(among others)

Joe Joyce's first 4 fights are miles and miles better than Tyson's first 4 opponents.
It's not even debatable

Lackeos wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 08:15

candyslim wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 05:49

Lackeos wrote: ↑21 May 2018, 07:55 Yeah, it was insane how Leon Spinks was fighting better opponents at age 23 than Joe Joyce is fighting at age 32. You could say it's amazing that a 32-year-old has already progressed to fighting opponents as good as Lenroy Thomas. That is way better than someone like Artur Szpilka, Andy Ruiz Jr, or Tom Schwarz; who were fighting opponents of that caliber when they were 23. Or Hughie Fury, beating Rudenko when he was 20. Or Agit Kabayel, beating way better opposition at age 25. So yeah, you could say Joe Joyce is a rare breed. If Joyce has already progressed this far by age 32, imagine how good he'll be when he's 50!

Be fair he's just turned pro after an extensive amateur career. He won the commonwealth title in his fourth fight having tried to land Chisora. Now he's gunning for Miller.

I don't know if you were trying to be funny because you are normally a good poster with a history of sensible contributions, but if you weren't then I'd suggest saving your criticism for those who deserve it, such as Trevor Bryan, LaRon Mitchell, Michael Wallisch, Bogdan Dinu or even Andy Ruiz Jnr. for example.

You could call this criticism, but if you look at it in-context, you'll see what I'm trying to say. The original poster is claiming that Joe Joyce's progress is fast-tracked in a way that is comparable to Leon Spinks. I don't believe that this is even a remotely accurate comparison. After Joyce won a European bronze medal, he stayed in the amateurs and kept winning medals for 3 more years, then competed in a dozen all-but-entirely-professional boxing matches, and now after 4 additional pro matches, is still not fighting opponents as good as Spinks's fourth opponent -- Pedro Agosto. Spinks was being fast-tracked at age 23, Joyce's career progress by age 32 is not fast. Joyce is 32, and he's still playing in the kiddie pool (in terms of professional matchmaking), just as he was the old guy playing in the kiddie pool when he was an amateur. The fighters I listed are almost a decade younger and are fighting in the deep end of the professional pool. In this particular case, I'm not criticizing Joyce, I'm criticizing the idea that he's the most fast-tracked heavyweight in several decades.

However, I've seen this kind of hype before, with David Price. Price won an Olympic bronze medal, but he did so at a relatively advanced age. A lot of people were hyping him to be the next conqueror of the heavyweight division, and claimed that Tyson Fury would be forever afraid to fight him, and never able to beat him. I always argued that by the time Fury reached his prime, he would far surpass Price, which these people did not accept. Amateur accomplishments are increasingly less meaningful at the later age that you earn them, and should not be treated as equally important indicators of potential without regard to age. Price was only 25 (still old to be competing in the amateurs), Joyce was much older when he earned silver. I believe that Joyce's hype will ultimately prove to be unjustified in the same way that Price's hype was, because they are both largely based on the false premise that amateur accomplishment is a predictor of professional success, regardless of how much age and experience advantage the competitor held over his opponents.

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 14:28

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 14:20

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 11:07

(among others)

Joe Joyce's first 4 fights are miles and miles better than Tyson's first 4 opponents.
It's not even debatable

For me it's like Tyson was. Fighting anyone every 6 weeks or so. I'd like to see Joyce pick up the pace.

Lackeos wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 18:39 Another thing I'd like to point out, and again, this is not to hate on Joe Joyce, but there are other fighters who have had superior competition through four fights. Some examples I can think of include Luis Ortiz, Kubrat Pulev, Odlanier Solis, and Tyrell Biggs. I feel like anyone who's been around for a bit should be able to remember that Ortiz, Pulev, and Solis all got attention for how fast their early matchmaking was.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 15:16

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 14:28

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 14:20

Joe Joyce's first 4 fights are miles and miles better than Tyson's first 4 opponents.
It's not even debatable

For me it's like Tyson was. Fighting anyone every 6 weeks or so. I'd like to see Joyce pick up the pace.

I agree Tyson was fighting non stop. Joyce needs to either get better opposition or fight every 4-6 weeks.

sweetviolenturge wrote: ↑26 May 2018, 03:22

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 15:16

oogiebe wrote: ↑25 May 2018, 14:28

For me it's like Tyson was. Fighting anyone every 6 weeks or so. I'd like to see Joyce pick up the pace.

I agree Tyson was fighting non stop. Joyce needs to either get better opposition or fight every 4-6 weeks.

To be fair though, Joyce's people are attempting to go with quality over quantity. Tyson didn't fight his first scheduled 10 round bout until he was 14-0 while Joyce debuted in a 10 rounder. Which was what they had looked to continue but, finding it difficult to find 10 round opponents to keep bust enough with. Joyce had to step down to two 8 rounders to keep busy then, he stepped up to a 12 round commonwealth title fight in his fourth pro fight. A title that he's going to defend in another 12 round bout on June 15.