BoxRec

candyslim wrote: ↑29 Jul 2018, 04:07

punchoutsb wrote: ↑09 Jun 2018, 18:14

candyslim wrote: ↑09 Jun 2018, 07:41

Chisora is two fighters, Jekyl and Hyde. One is a poorly motivated pussycat who went through the motions against Pulev and Kabayel. The other is a totally psyched up, motivated, determined not to be beaten by the hated DW, Dereck Chisora. You cannot compare his performance against Whyte and Pulev (or Kabayel) without doing Whyte a massive injustice.

Still, you just keep putting him down and he'll keep fighting people that most others would do only if dictated by one of the governing bodies.

And who has Pulev beaten recently to make you think he's still got it?

I have never accepted the excuses from Chisora apologists, and they've been throwing them out for years. Chisora is a gate keeper, no matter how "psyched up, motivated, determined" he is. He has never won a meaningful fight in his career, he loses to every high class fighter he faces. The closest he has come to winning a big fight was against a one armed Helenius and Dillian Whyte. Chisora was never a pussycat, he was a fighter that lacked ability at the highest level. Pulev (or Kabayel, or Haye, or Fury, or Klitschko, or Fury again...) shut him down because they were better, not because he was unmotivated.

I think Dereck has proved my point that he is a Jekyl and Hyde character and there is no comparison between the fired up, highly motivated, let-me-kill-him, Dereck Chisora faced by Whyte and Takam, and the just-going-through-the-motions Dereck Chisora faced by Pulev and Kabayel.

I don't like to say "I told you so" No fu'kit, yes I do.

You're original point was very clear; when he wins its because he's motivated, when he loses its because he's not motivated. Solid logic to be sure. Fool proof even. The fact that Pulev and Kabayal are physically and stylistic night and day different from Takam clearly had nothing to do with it. Styles, age, and ability don't make fights; Chisora's motivation is the real factor.

astradamus wrote: ↑29 Jul 2018, 17:17 I think Whyte just showed yesterday that he's currently a league above Pulev at this moment, Pulev is shot and done and Pulev isn't at this level any more.

How do you know? Pulev beat Chisora really easily, made it look like a mismatch. What makes you think Pulev is shot? He's not fought this year.

punchoutsb wrote: ↑29 Jul 2018, 18:26

candyslim wrote: ↑29 Jul 2018, 04:07

punchoutsb wrote: ↑09 Jun 2018, 18:14

I have never accepted the excuses from Chisora apologists, and they've been throwing them out for years. Chisora is a gate keeper, no matter how "psyched up, motivated, determined" he is. He has never won a meaningful fight in his career, he loses to every high class fighter he faces. The closest he has come to winning a big fight was against a one armed Helenius and Dillian Whyte. Chisora was never a pussycat, he was a fighter that lacked ability at the highest level. Pulev (or Kabayel, or Haye, or Fury, or Klitschko, or Fury again...) shut him down because they were better, not because he was unmotivated.

I think Dereck has proved my point that he is a Jekyl and Hyde character and there is no comparison between the fired up, highly motivated, let-me-kill-him, Dereck Chisora faced by Whyte and Takam, and the just-going-through-the-motions Dereck Chisora faced by Pulev and Kabayel.

I don't like to say "I told you so" No fu'kit, yes I do.

You're original point was very clear; when he wins its because he's motivated, when he loses its because he's not motivated. Solid logic to be sure. Fool proof even. The fact that Pulev and Kabayal are physically and stylistic night and day different from Takam clearly had nothing to do with it. Styles, age, and ability don't make fights; Chisora's motivation is the real factor.

Don't be silly. I'm not saying that it's the only factor. I'm not saying if he's motivated he beats anyone and if he's not anyone can beat him. but if you don't see a difference between a Chisora who's determined to win and a Chisora who doesn't really care too much, then you are ignoring what's obvious.

There is a significant difference between the Del Boy who's got the bit between his teeth, and the one that hasn't. He was beaten by Fury and Haye just as they were the much better fighter. I think Pulev would have won even if a fully motivated Chisora turned up, none more than because Chisora's style is perfect for a Pulev. But to be fair, it was a really sluggish and low output performance by Del.

Personally, both Pulev and Chisora are irrelevant in the division. There's 50 able, and more active heavies which we can be more excited about than these fellas. Even after the Chisora win against Takam.

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 03:19 There is a significant difference between the Del Boy who's got the bit between his teeth, and the one that hasn't. He was beaten by Fury and Haye just as they were the much better fighter. I think Pulev would have won even if a fully motivated Chisora turned up, none more than because Chisora's style is perfect for a Pulev. But to be fair, it was a really sluggish and low output performance by Del.

Personally, both Pulev and Chisora are irrelevant in the division. There's 50 able, and more active heavies which we can be more excited about than these fellas. Even after the Chisora win against Takam.

Pulev dominated Chisora, Chisora arguably beat Whyte. What the hell are you talking about?

astradamus wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 03:19

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 00:36

astradamus wrote: ↑29 Jul 2018, 17:17 I think Whyte just showed yesterday that he's currently a league above Pulev at this moment, Pulev is shot and done and Pulev isn't at this level any more.

How do you know? Pulev beat Chisora really easily, made it look like a mismatch. What makes you think Pulev is shot? He's not fought this year.

He's younger, stronger, faster, bigger, better shape, I think he also has a longer reach, everything.
If you saw the match yesterday, you could easely see that Takam and Chisora where both significantly slower nowadays then Parker and Whyte. Whyte really shows he's growing into the game, despite his relatively old age (old as in, for this growing speed).

Okay, so you have no proof other than a bunch of rambling. Pulev beats Whyte with ease.

candyslim wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 02:25

punchoutsb wrote: ↑29 Jul 2018, 18:26

candyslim wrote: ↑29 Jul 2018, 04:07

I think Dereck has proved my point that he is a Jekyl and Hyde character and there is no comparison between the fired up, highly motivated, let-me-kill-him, Dereck Chisora faced by Whyte and Takam, and the just-going-through-the-motions Dereck Chisora faced by Pulev and Kabayel.

I don't like to say "I told you so" No fu'kit, yes I do.

You're original point was very clear; when he wins its because he's motivated, when he loses its because he's not motivated. Solid logic to be sure. Fool proof even. The fact that Pulev and Kabayal are physically and stylistic night and day different from Takam clearly had nothing to do with it. Styles, age, and ability don't make fights; Chisora's motivation is the real factor.

Don't be silly. I'm not saying that it's the only factor. I'm not saying if he's motivated he beats anyone and if he's not anyone can beat him. but if you don't see a difference between a Chisora who's determined to win and a Chisora who doesn't really care too much, then you are ignoring what's obvious.

And I'm saying that this excuse has been thrown around since his first defeat to Tyson Fury when he came in heavy. It's not a mystery; he's a limited gate keeper who has lost to fighters better than him. Takam is now his best win, so at least he's moving up. Kabayal is likely the "worst" of the guys that beat him and he would have won again had he been in there on Saturday.

He was never going to beat Fury. Fury was all wrong for him and far too good. I accept Chisora is far more effective against someone who will stand and trade but I do believe the Chisora who KTFOed Takam and went life and death with Whyte would have too much for Agit Kabayel and he'd have made life a lot more difficult for Pulev too.

If you can't see that, you can't see that. Nothing more to be said then.

Incidently, how much longer does Pulev have to go without (aaa) fighting someone relevant and (bbb) fighting anyone at all, before certain people on here start to question whether he is still worthy of his top sixish ranking? Genuine question.

Pulev saying Whyte and Hearn have done everything they can to avoid him, in the context of him being dangerous, is null and void. Parker was seen as a far more dangerous fight. Whyte would've made a mint being the hometown, headline, PPV fighter, then 25% of a fight in Bulgaria which about 25% of Saturday's audience would've watched. Whyte has now possibly pushed himself to the #2 or 3 Heavyweight in the world. The IBF's 25% rule for a fight that's not even world title in silly

Very silly indeed. That's the IBF not you Dan . I entirely agree with your comments.

It amazes and annoys me the deluded crap some fighters come out with. This shite from Ortiz about Joshua avoiding him for example. He had his mandatory all lined up for March 2018, all he had to do was wait for AJ to dispose of Pulev (Takam) and he'd have been next up instead of Parker, no question about it.

Like it's Joshua's fault that Ortiz (more likely Haymon) decided to forego the shot and take on Wilder for the WBC crown. Does he not realize the reason Wilder fought him was because he's a Haymon fighter, because Wilder desperately needed a credible fighter on his resume, because at Ortiz's age that probably meant he was less of a risk than he had been two years before?

He's even less of a risk now which is probably why he looks like getting another shot. Six months ago I was feeling sorry for the old geezer, he'd got failed for - what was it - not declaring his meds, looked like having passed up a fortune by giving up his WBA mandatory and was about to be banned by the WBC until he was too old to fight.

Now look at him. Allegedly about to get his second crack at Wilder.

Well let's face it - making that kind of statement knocking out Razvan Cojanu, how could the WBC consider anybody else?

candyslim wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 08:52 He was never going to beat Fury. Fury was all wrong for him and far too good. I accept Chisora is far more effective against someone who will stand and trade but I do believe the Chisora who KTFOed Takam and went life and death with Whyte would have too much for Agit Kabayel and he'd have made life a lot more difficult for Pulev too.

If you can't see that, you can't see that. Nothing more to be said then.

Incidently, how much longer does Pulev have to go without (aaa) fighting someone relevant and (bbb) fighting anyone at all, before certain people on here start to question whether he is still worthy of his top sixish ranking? Genuine question.

This is more reasonable. That being said, Kabayal is all wrong for Chisora stylistically, as is Pulev. Del Boy is a stand and trade guy with good workrate. He doesn't have high ring IQ and thus doesn't do well against guys who don't just do what he wants them to do. His resume proves this irrefutably.

As for Pulev, this is the 2018 HW division. There's not a lot of relevance anywhere to be found.

I haven't changed my stance in any way Punchy (more reasonable). Maybe I expressed it better this time. Stylewise Kabayel is less Derreck's cup-of-tea, but dangerous-Derrick has more than enough to beat him regardless, whereas docile-Derreck didn't.

In my opinion obviously.

In terms of aggregated totals, Kubrat Pulev’s last seven victories came against opponents that had failed to win 83 of their bouts (79 defeats and 4 draws).

If you perform a similar analysis of Dillian Whyte’s resume and compare this to the Bulgarian’s, it’s easy to appreciate the reason why Kubrat Pulev is dwelling in Eastern European obscurity.

He hasn’t done enough recently to warrant any sort of recognition or praise from fight fans.

Dillian Whyte was only entitled to a 25% split of the purse total in order to compete in the IBF final eliminator against Kubrat Pulev. So the Brit wisely chose to face Joseph Parker instead.

Yes quite. Another reason he's dwelling in east-european obscurity is that he's dwelling in east-european obscurity (quite literally) and more importantly that's the only place where he wants to fight.

Chisora-Kabayel could go either way. Saturdays Chisora would beat Kabayel, its my opinion. Also, i think that Pulev is a favourite vs Whyte

candyslim wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 10:22 I haven't changed my stance in any way Punchy (more reasonable). Maybe I expressed it better this time. Stylewise Kabayel is less Derreck's cup-of-tea, but dangerous-Derrick has more than enough to beat him regardless, whereas docile-Derreck didn't.

In my opinion obviously.

He's never proven he has more than enough to beat Kabayal. A come from behind ko of stand in front of you Takam or a good showing against stand in front of you Whyte doesn't teach us anything about Chisoras ability to negate Kabayals superior boxing ability. Styles make fights.

Looks like it's not just me that thinks that. Kabayel didn't exactly dominate a very disinterested Chisora. He's a decent boxer but he's hardly Willie Pep. I mean If Saturday's Chisora was serious about putting some hurt on him, I don't think it's a case of Derreck being too crude to get near this master technician.

The very good “Dr. Jekyll” version of Dereck Chisora, which we saw against Carlos Takam, outworks and overwhelms Agit Kabayel, but the shockingly bad “Mr Hyde” version drops a very close decision against the same opponent.

When evaluating a potential Chisora-Kabayel rematch, it’s not a case of “styles makes fights”, because Del Boy’s engine against Carlos Takam was vastly superior than what we witnessed in the Brit’s losing efforts in Monte Carlo.

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 05:18

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 03:19 There is a significant difference between the Del Boy who's got the bit between his teeth, and the one that hasn't. He was beaten by Fury and Haye just as they were the much better fighter. I think Pulev would have won even if a fully motivated Chisora turned up, none more than because Chisora's style is perfect for a Pulev. But to be fair, it was a really sluggish and low output performance by Del.

Personally, both Pulev and Chisora are irrelevant in the division. There's 50 able, and more active heavies which we can be more excited about than these fellas. Even after the Chisora win against Takam.

Pulev dominated Chisora, Chisora arguably beat Whyte. What the hell are you talking about?

Pulev did dominate Chisora. But then it wasn't hard when he dominated reach and sat on the edge of his jab. I'd be disappointed if he didn't dominate.

Chisora didn't arguably beat Whyte, he just lost a SD. For the boxing un-initiated (like yourself), that means more judges gave Whyte the nod than Chisora. Whether you agree with that assessment is another conversation altogether.

chisora-whyte was super close, it easily couldve gone to chisora and one judge did give it to him. that was not a poor card. and whyte only was up by one point and two point on the other cards. . it was 1 point away from being a draw. basically, there was hardly anything at all between them

when chisora has that super close fight with whyte , who now is prob top 5, and just beat takam, how the hell do you act like there are 50 guys above at hw lol, is this the type of thinking that leads to danny dubois getting ranked in the top ten?

and lol at the condescension above ('boxing un-initiated, like yourself'), predictably from the same guy who went off about me knowing nothing because i am skeptical about the claim that whytes power suddenly improved at 30, jeez bruh, why whyte make you mad , its okay, im sure dill isnt too bothered

candyslim wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 11:39 Looks like it's not just me that thinks that. Kabayel didn't exactly dominate a very disinterested Chisora. He's a decent boxer but he's hardly Willie Pep. I mean If Saturday's Chisora was serious about putting some hurt on him, I don't think it's a case of Derreck being too crude to get near this master technician.

Willie Pep and master technician aren't words I'd use to describe Kabayal. He was still too good for Del Boy as he showed in the ring. It's really not that hard is it? Del looked good Saturday (though still likely down on the cards) because he had a near 40 year old man standing in front of him fighting exactly his fight. The mythical "Chisora of Saturday night" doesn't exist against a fighter that isn't right in front of him fighting his fight.

Chisora who was just going through the motions, probably hadn't trained that well, not fully engaged with the task, lost a close fight to Kabayel, and was more convincingly outpointed by Pulev - I do think Whyte or Takam stop that Chisora.

No version of Derreck Chisora beats a peak Pulev but I suspect Kubrat is a long way past his best. That can only be speculation because he's gone from only fighting opponents who've got a free bus pass, to fighting no fokker at all.

I'm convinced that the Chisora who matched Whyte blow for blow, and crushed the Takam that gave Joshua an extremely unpleasant evening two fights ago, is a different proposition altogether, and I'd wager that Saturday's Chisora in front of all those fans at the O2 singing his name, is well capable of giving Agit Kabayel a bloody good drubbing and very possibly a 2018 vintage Kubrat Pulev n' all.

And yet the actual results of his career offers no evidence to reasonably expect that.

Aside from last night (I'm not sure who was favored) has Chisora ever won a match he wasn't supposed to?

im not sure but he was badly robbed vs helenius, i hate to legitimize awful judging by giving a robbed fighter less credit then they wouldve got with fair judging

also his level of comp has been unreal

guys who beat him

vitali
haye
fury
whyte
pulev
kaybayel
helenius (robbed)

who would fight those guys and not lose a bunch? only the very elite. every one of those guys has been top 5 in the world, except helenius (robbed) and kabayel.

jamamb wrote: ↑30 Jul 2018, 16:08 im not sure but he was badly robbed vs helenius, i hate to legitimize awful judging by giving a robbed fighter less credit then they wouldve got with fair judging

also his level of comp has been unreal

guys who beat him

vitali
haye
fury
whyte
pulev
kaybayel
helenius (robbed)

who would fight those guys and not lose a bunch? only the very elite. every one of those guys has been top 5 in the world, except helenius (robbed) and kabayel.

Helenius also suffered two serious injuries, one requiring surgery, early in that fight. That was one of Chisoras best performances against a top fighter and it came against a one armed man. His career has been as straight forward as possible: he's won almost all the fights he was supposed to and lost the ones he wasn't. And yet people continue to believe there's this hidden monster. It's extremely disrespectful to the fighters that have unequivocally proved they are better than him.