BoxRec

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 15:45

ValMar wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 15:05

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 14:52

I rekon Miguel Cotto is a more proven harder puncher at WW. Maybe Mosley too.

I can not agree.....

Both have knocked out more reputable names with chins than Errol Spence has.

I don't speak/write about their resumes, this is a topic about punching power.

ValMar wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 16:17

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 15:45

ValMar wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 15:05

I can not agree.....

Both have knocked out more reputable names with chins than Errol Spence has.

I don't speak/write about their resumes, this is a topic about punching power.

And I stand by my assertion that Miguel Cotto and Shane Mosley are more proven punchers than Errol Spence is.

I'm not sure I can list too many concussive power punchers over the last 8 years at WW no, but Spence not only doesn't have the names on the resume to match the likes of Cotto, Mosley, Mayweather, but he hasn't got any showreel one punch shots like Garcia, Maidana etc that would suggest Spence's power is anything other than very good. His best wins are arguably Brook, Peterson, Algieri and Van Heerden, none of whom were KO'd concussively with one shot - his wins have all been about outclassing his opponents and cumulative shots.
AJ got shouted off the list earlier for not being a one shot puncher, but Spence is??

Spence is a sharp and accurate puncher and a hell of a fighter, but people here are putting him at 10/10 for power.... I don't see that at all.

I knew the Spence fans wouldn't like me saying that though, despite the number of riders I put on it!!

Who hits hardest at HW? Joshua, Wilder or Klitschko?

Some nice lists on here though.

errol is pretty much a grinding physical fighter who wears guys down with accumulation. like stopping brook in the 11th after several rounds of beating him up. when i watch errol im thinking of how hes gonna assert his strength and beat a guy down with those body shots and shots upstairs in bunches. he really doesnt have any sort of blast out with a few shots vs anyone good. hes definitely a good puncher but hard for me to put a guy like him as 10/10.

i feel there should definitely be some value to differentiate between a guy like spence and a guy who can be more sudden with his power. even a guy like kovalev who is hardly on any of these lists to me is more of a 'sudden' threat with his power, punch for punch, like landing that big right to drop ward early or suddenly badly hurting clev with a counter left. same with guys like stevenson (1 round ktfo of dawson, sending gonalzez to convulsions), ggg (loads of early kds vs decent opponents/early ktfos of ishida and mackling), wilder (loads of ktfos and stoppages out of nowhere), tank davis, etc.

is errol one of the best punchers at ww, yes, very well might be the best right now. but i dont think anyone at ww hits at a 10/10 level at the moment. to me 10/10 is reserved for only a very small group. the type who you can watch feeling like a ko or big moment can come at any moment, even vs good opponents. you wont always have 10/10 punchers at a weight.

jamamb wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 19:27 errol is pretty much a grinding physical fighter who wears guys down with accumulation. like stopping brook in the 11th after several rounds of beating him up. when i watch errol im thinking of how hes gonna assert his strength and beat a guy down with those body shots and shots upstairs in bunches. he really doesnt have any sort of blast out with a few shots vs anyone good. hes definitely a good puncher but hard for me to put a guy like him as 10/10.

i feel there should definitely be some value to differentiate between a guy like spence and a guy who can be more sudden with his power. even a guy like kovalev who is hardly on any of these lists to me is more of a 'sudden' threat with his power, punch for punch, like landing that big right to drop ward early or suddenly badly hurting clev with a counter left. same with guys like stevenson (1 round ktfo of dawson, sending gonalzez to convulsions), ggg (loads of early kds vs decent opponents/early ktfos of ishida and mackling), wilder (loads of ktfos and stoppages out of nowhere), tank davis, etc.

is errol one of the best punchers at ww, yes, very well might be the best right now. but i dont think anyone at ww hits at a 10/10 level at the moment. to me 10/10 is reserved for only a very small group. the type who you can watch feeling like a ko or big moment can come at any moment, even vs good opponents. you wont always have 10/10 punchers at a weight.

I was trying to say this!

sharpei_louis wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 14:12 I'm going to get jumped all over for saying this, so let me make it clear I'm not saying Spence isn't a great fighter - he is - but how is his power getting rated so highly? He generates good power through the quality, timing and of his work and technique, not sheer one punch ko power at all... his best wins have all been tkos where the ref steps in (quite rightly), I don't recall any cold kos on his record.

You need to consider the fact that there are different types of puncher in the sport of boxing.

For instance, to plagiarise the terminology used by Stephen "Breadman" Edwards, puncher’s can be categorised accordingly:

Electric Slasher:
• Deontay Wilder

Heavy handed Debilitator:
• Murat Gassiev
• Genady Golovkin
• Mikey Garcia
• Errol Spence Jr.

Speed Thudder:
• Adonis Stevenson
• Anthony Joshua
• Monster Inuoe”
• Gervonta Davis

Swordsmen:
• Krusher Kovalev

Where:

• Swordsmen = Punches where their sharpness results in delayed reactions (like Thomas Hearns). You don't see their shots thrown, so they land like a sucker punch.

• Heavy handed debilitator = Heavy handed boom, boom, boom type punches that ruins their opponents (like Marvin Hagler and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.)

• Electric Slashers = Throws slashing, punishing shots. They need their entire bodies to generate the electric energy (like: Ray Leonard, Shane Mosley, Manny Pacquiao, Roy Jones etc.)

• Speed Thudders = The best puncher ever when you combine power, accuracy, technique and punch delivery (like Joe Louis, Bob Foster, Julian Jackson, Roberto Duran, Mike Tyson)

• Bludgeon Crew = This is usually a man strong enough to punch through anything (like George Foreman). It doesn’t matter if their opponents hands are up or not. Punchers like this don’t care what they hit because they hurt and break everything (like Sonny Liston, David Tua, Marcos Maidana, Gerald McClellan, Earnie Shavers etc.). The difference between a "Heavy handed Debilitator" and a member of the "Bludgeon Crew" relates to the fact that those classified as the former are usually fundamentally sound (i.e. GGG, Hagler), whereas members of the latter simply punch very hard, whilst adopting an unrefined fighting style (i.e. Foreman, Maidana).

For example:

• A skilled fighter like GGG lacks the sword-like speed of a "Swordsmen", so he should be classed as a "Heavy Handed Debilitator", because his opponents are covering up and bracing for the onslaught.

Therefore, I don’t classify a “big puncher” using one-dimensional criteria, because stoppages can be forced in a variety of ways, such as via a one-punch KO achieved by a lightning-fast straight right hand thrown with surgical precision or resulting from the cumulative effect of consecutively-landed heavy blows.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:00 For instance, to plagiarise the terminology used by Stephen "Breadman" Edwards, puncher’s can be categorised accordingly:

Electric Slasher:
• Deontay Wilder

Heavy handed Debilitator:
• Murat Gassiev
• Genady Golovkin
• Mikey Garcia
• Errol Spence Jr.

Speed Thudder:
• Adonis Stevenson
• Anthony Joshua
• Monster Inuoe”
• Gervonta Davis

Swordsmen:
• Krusher Kovalev

Where:

• Swordsmen = Punches where their sharpness results in delayed reactions (like Thomas Hearns)
• Heavy handed debilitator = Heavy handed boom, boom, boom type punches that ruins their opponents (like Marvin Hagler and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.)
• The other two punch-types seem fairly obvious to me.

That classification is both funny and close to reality, I approve.

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:16

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:00 For instance, to plagiarise the terminology used by Stephen "Breadman" Edwards, puncher’s can be categorised accordingly:

Electric Slasher:
• Deontay Wilder

Heavy handed Debilitator:
• Murat Gassiev
• Genady Golovkin
• Mikey Garcia
• Errol Spence Jr.

Speed Thudder:
• Adonis Stevenson
• Anthony Joshua
• Monster Inuoe”
• Gervonta Davis

Swordsmen:
• Krusher Kovalev

Where:

• Swordsmen = Punches where their sharpness results in delayed reactions (like Thomas Hearns)
• Heavy handed debilitator = Heavy handed boom, boom, boom type punches that ruins their opponents (like Marvin Hagler and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.)
• The other two punch-types seem fairly obvious to me.

That classification is both funny and close to reality, I approve.

I forgot to add two more definitions:

• Electric Slashers = Throw throw slashing, punishing shots. They need their entire bodies to generate the electric energy (like: Ray Leonard, Shane Mosley, Manny Pacquiao, Roy Jones etc.)
• Speed Thudders = The best puncher ever when you combine power, accuracy, technique and punch delivery (like Joe Louis, Bob Foster, Julian Jackson, Roberto Duran, Mike Tyson)

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:20
I forgot to add two more definitions:

• Electric Slashers = Throw throw slashing, punishing shots. They need their entire bodies to generate the electric energy (like: Ray Leonard, Shane Mosley, Manny Pacquiao, Roy Jones etc.)
• Speed Thudders = The best puncher ever when you combine power, accuracy, technique and punch delivery (like Joe Louis, Bob Foster, Julian Jackson, Roberto Duran, Mike Tyson)

I thought, electric slashers were that kind of punchers, which literally slashed the electricity, i.e. provided "lights out", brutally and with one punch, so I'd move Jackson there and add Foreman with Shavers

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:29

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:20
I forgot to add two more definitions:

• Electric Slashers = Throw throw slashing, punishing shots. They need their entire bodies to generate the electric energy (like: Ray Leonard, Shane Mosley, Manny Pacquiao, Roy Jones etc.)
• Speed Thudders = The best puncher ever when you combine power, accuracy, technique and punch delivery (like Joe Louis, Bob Foster, Julian Jackson, Roberto Duran, Mike Tyson)

I thought, electric slashers were that kind of punchers, which literally slashed the electricity, i.e. provided "lights out", brutally and with one punch, so I'd move Jackson there and add Foreman with Shavers

I would classify Foreman and Shavers as members of the "Bludgeon Crew", which is not quite the same as a "Heavy handed debilitator", because of the sheer physical strength of the man throwing the shots...

Bludgeon Crew = This is usually a man strong enough to punch through anything (like George Foreman). It doesn’t matter if their opponents hands or up or not. Punchers like this don’t care what they hit because they hurt and break everything (like Sonny Liston, David Tua, Marcos Maidana, Gerald McClellan, Earnie Shavers etc.).

I'm not sure if I'd class George Foreman as an "Electric Slasher", because he didn't need to use the leverage of his entire body (like Wilder does) to generate the power behind his shots. He sort of just let his hands go whilst standing upright.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:38

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:29

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:20
I forgot to add two more definitions:

• Electric Slashers = Throw throw slashing, punishing shots. They need their entire bodies to generate the electric energy (like: Ray Leonard, Shane Mosley, Manny Pacquiao, Roy Jones etc.)
• Speed Thudders = The best puncher ever when you combine power, accuracy, technique and punch delivery (like Joe Louis, Bob Foster, Julian Jackson, Roberto Duran, Mike Tyson)

I thought, electric slashers were that kind of punchers, which literally slashed the electricity, i.e. provided "lights out", brutally and with one punch, so I'd move Jackson there and add Foreman with Shavers

I would classify Foreman and Shavers as members of the "Bludgeon Crew", which is not quite the same as a "Heavy handed debilitator", because of the sheer physical strength of the man throwing the shots...

Bludgeon Crew = This is usually a man strong enough to punch through anything (like George Foreman). It doesn’t matter if their opponents hands or up or not. Punchers like this don’t care what they hit because they hurt and break everything (like Sonny Liston, David Tua, Marcos Maidana, Gerald McClellan, Earnie Shavers etc.).

I'm not sure if I'd class George Foreman as an "Electric Slasher", because he didn't need to use the leverage of his entire body (like Wilder does) to generate the power behind his shots. He sort of just let his hands go whilst standing upright.

That has sense. Can be a subclass for the "Electric Slashers".

jamamb wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 19:27 errol is pretty much a grinding physical fighter who wears guys down with accumulation. like stopping brook in the 11th after several rounds of beating him up. when i watch errol im thinking of how hes gonna assert his strength and beat a guy down with those body shots and shots upstairs in bunches. he really doesnt have any sort of blast out with a few shots vs anyone good. hes definitely a good puncher but hard for me to put a guy like him as 10/10.

i feel there should definitely be some value to differentiate between a guy like spence and a guy who can be more sudden with his power. even a guy like kovalev who is hardly on any of these lists to me is more of a 'sudden' threat with his power, punch for punch, like landing that big right to drop ward early or suddenly badly hurting clev with a counter left. same with guys like stevenson (1 round ktfo of dawson, sending gonalzez to convulsions), ggg (loads of early kds vs decent opponents/early ktfos of ishida and mackling), wilder (loads of ktfos and stoppages out of nowhere), tank davis, etc.

is errol one of the best punchers at ww, yes, very well might be the best right now. but i dont think anyone at ww hits at a 10/10 level at the moment. to me 10/10 is reserved for only a very small group. the type who you can watch feeling like a ko or big moment can come at any moment, even vs good opponents. you wont always have 10/10 punchers at a weight.

Spence is little bit like how Vitali was in that regard that while the power is not 10/10 There is still lot of KO's. He has good power but not 10.

Wilder has some really scary power. He really has put people to sleep with one punch. Also the first Ortiz KD was testament to his power. The shot hit Ortiz high on the forehead. He also saw the punch coming. Still he went down and was on unsteady legs. Ortiz can probably take the same shot from most other boxers without blinking.

Joshuas power is 9+ for me. Very good but not 10.

Double post

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:48

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:38

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:29

I thought, electric slashers were that kind of punchers, which literally slashed the electricity, i.e. provided "lights out", brutally and with one punch, so I'd move Jackson there and add Foreman with Shavers

I would classify Foreman and Shavers as members of the "Bludgeon Crew", which is not quite the same as a "Heavy handed debilitator", because of the sheer physical strength of the man throwing the shots...

Bludgeon Crew = This is usually a man strong enough to punch through anything (like George Foreman). It doesn’t matter if their opponents hands or up or not. Punchers like this don’t care what they hit because they hurt and break everything (like Sonny Liston, David Tua, Marcos Maidana, Gerald McClellan, Earnie Shavers etc.).

I'm not sure if I'd class George Foreman as an "Electric Slasher", because he didn't need to use the leverage of his entire body (like Wilder does) to generate the power behind his shots. He sort of just let his hands go whilst standing upright.

That has sense. Can be a subclass for the "Electric Slashers".

Agreed!

I'd like to clarify the definition of a "Bludgeon Crew" to help distinguish it from a "Heavy handed Debilitator"...

A "Heavy handed Debilitator" is usually fundamentally sound (i.e. GGG, Hagler), whereas a member of the "Bludgeon Crew" just punches very hard whilst adopting an unrefined fighting style (i.e. Foreman, Maidana).

sharpei_louis wrote: ↑14 Jun 2018, 14:12 I'm going to get jumped all over for saying this, so let me make it clear I'm not saying Spence isn't a great fighter - he is - but how is his power getting rated so highly? He generates good power through the quality, timing and of his work and technique, not sheer one punch ko power at all... his best wins have all been tkos where the ref steps in (quite rightly), I don't recall any cold kos on his record.

You need to consider the fact that there are different types of puncher in the sport of boxing.

For instance, to plagiarise the terminology used by Stephen "Breadman" Edwards, puncher’s can be categorised accordingly:

Electric Slasher:
• Deontay Wilder

Heavy handed Debilitator:
• Murat Gassiev
• Genady Golovkin
• Mikey Garcia
• Errol Spence Jr.

Speed Thudder:
• Adonis Stevenson
• Anthony Joshua
• Monster Inuoe”
• Gervonta Davis

Swordsmen:
• Krusher Kovalev

Where:

• Swordsmen = Punches where their sharpness results in delayed reactions (like Thomas Hearns). You don't see their shots thrown, so they land like a sucker punch.

• Heavy handed debilitator = Heavy handed boom, boom, boom type punches that ruins their opponents (like Marvin Hagler and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.)

• Electric Slashers = Throws slashing, punishing shots. They need their entire bodies to generate the electric energy (like: Ray Leonard, Shane Mosley, Manny Pacquiao, Roy Jones etc.). For instance, you couldn't class George Foreman as an "Electric Slasher", because he didn't need to use the leverage of his entire body (like Wilder does) to generate the power behind his shots. He sort of just let his hands go whilst standing upright.

• Speed Thudders = The best puncher ever when you combine power, accuracy, technique and punch delivery (like Joe Louis, Bob Foster, Julian Jackson, Roberto Duran, Mike Tyson)

• Bludgeon Crew = This is usually a man strong enough to punch through anything (like George Foreman). It doesn’t matter if their opponents hands are up or not. Punchers like this don’t care what they hit because they hurt and break everything (like Sonny Liston, David Tua, Marcos Maidana, Gerald McClellan, Earnie Shavers etc.). The difference between a "Heavy handed Debilitator" and a member of the "Bludgeon Crew" relates to the fact that those classified as the former are usually fundamentally sound (i.e. GGG, Hagler), whereas members of the latter simply punch very hard, whilst adopting an unrefined fighting style (i.e. Foreman, Maidana).

For example:

• A skilled fighter like GGG lacks the sword-like speed of a "Swordsmen", so he should be classed as a "Heavy Handed Debilitator", because his opponents are covering up and bracing for the onslaught.

Therefore, I don’t classify a “big puncher” using one-dimensional criteria, because stoppages can be forced in a variety of ways, such as via a one-punch KO achieved by a lightning-fast straight right hand thrown with surgical precision or resulting from the cumulative effect of consecutively-landed heavy blows.

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:16

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:00 For instance, to plagiarise the terminology used by Stephen "Breadman" Edwards, puncher’s can be categorised accordingly:

Electric Slasher:
• Deontay Wilder

Heavy handed Debilitator:
• Murat Gassiev
• Genady Golovkin
• Mikey Garcia
• Errol Spence Jr.

Speed Thudder:
• Adonis Stevenson
• Anthony Joshua
• Monster Inuoe”
• Gervonta Davis

Swordsmen:
• Krusher Kovalev

Where:

• Swordsmen = Punches where their sharpness results in delayed reactions (like Thomas Hearns)
• Heavy handed debilitator = Heavy handed boom, boom, boom type punches that ruins their opponents (like Marvin Hagler and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.)
• The other two punch-types seem fairly obvious to me.

That classification is both funny and close to reality, I approve.

Yes !

I will repeat this, risking to be boring : considering WW divsion (2008-2018), Spence is the most powerful puncher. More powerful than Cotto, Mosley and Maidana. I don't think that Pacquiao (at WW) is/was deserving more than 8/10.

Spence deserved 10/10, this is the evaluation of the active boxers / human beeings, not the Hellenic semi-gods.

In a training camp for the '08 Olympic team at the Olympic Training center in Colorado Springs, they have a heavybag that test the power of punches. Wilder's jab was more powerful than anybody else's power hand punches on the team. At that time Wilder only had around 20 amateur fights and his technique was terrible. It still not much better now but he can punch, no doubt about that.

I've read some longwinded stuff in my time but my Lord what are you lot on about?

You're just talking about different types of boxer here, none of this is significant. Within each of these categories you'll have a puncher who can ko people with one shot, and some who can't.

Stevenson is a puncher, Wilder is a puncher. Guys who can and have shown they can take someone out with one shot (someone decent).
Spence hasn't knocked anyone out with one shot so according to my own - much simpler - system, I don't class him as 10/10 power.

I don't need to consider anything else. Until Spence kos someone cold with one shot his power isn't 10/10.
Easy.

Considering p4p, for example is mike a more powerful puncher p4p than foreman, cause foreman weight much more than tyson. For a 5'10, 95 kg heavyweight prime tyson had ultra punching power.

All prime/p4p

10 julian jackson, mike tyson, edwin valero, sugar ray robinson, randall bailey, GGG, nayao inoue

9.9 anthony joshua, thomas hearns, george foreman, earnie shavers, gerald mcclellan, manny pacquiao, dmitri kudryashov, mamadou thiam, sugar ray leonard

9.8 sugar shane mosley, sergio martinez, errol spence, marcos maidana, keith thurman, gervontay davis, serguy kovalev

9.7 roman gonzales, mikkel kessler, kostya tszyu, mikey garcia, terance crawford, oscar de la hoya, dariusz michalchewski

There aren't a lot of 10/10's at the moment. Only ones so far, off the top of my head, are: Lemieux (MW), Kudryashov (CW), Gassiev (CW), Beterbiev (LHW), Mikey (LW), Kavaliauskas (WW), and maybe Inoue (BW).

Spence is nowhere near 10/10.

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 19:21 There aren't a lot of 10/10's at the moment. Only ones so far, off the top of my head, are: Lemieux (MW), Kudryashov (CW), Gassiev (CW), Beterbiev (LHW), Mikey (LW), Kavaliauskas (WW), and maybe Inoue (BW).

Spence is nowhere near 10/10.

Honestly, I have never watched Kavaliauskas, and I don't know anything about him. I would like that you right about him.
I have been watched Inoue twice, maybe this is my prejudice, but I feel that in all weight division under 135, the competition is terribly weak...So,it is very difficult to evaluate the tiny guys.
Kudryashov can punch, definitely, but he is capable to beat only fighters C/B level, so I would not give him 10/10. Someone might claim that Price is in a similar situation, but he had defeated (and KO'd) some solid fighters (and hurt Povetkin, too)....

ValMar wrote: ↑16 Jun 2018, 11:10

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 19:21 There aren't a lot of 10/10's at the moment. Only ones so far, off the top of my head, are: Lemieux (MW), Kudryashov (CW), Gassiev (CW), Beterbiev (LHW), Mikey (LW), Kavaliauskas (WW), and maybe Inoue (BW).

Spence is nowhere near 10/10.

Honestly, I have never watched Kavaliauskas, and I don't know anything about him. I would like that you right about him.
I have been watched Inoue twice, maybe this is my prejudice, but I feel that in all weight division under 135, the competition is terribly weak...So,it is very difficult to evaluate the tiny guys.
Kudryashov can punch, definitely, but he is capable to beat only fighters C/B level, so I would not give him 10/10. Someone might claim that Price is in a similar situation, but he had defeated (and KO'd) some solid fighters (and hurt Povetkin, too)....

I don't think Price is 10/10, though. He's on par with Joshua and Wilder. Only Klitschko was 10/10.

Look at how Kudryashov KO's opponents. You can tell he's 10/10. It's like saying Julian Jackson isn't 10/10 because he lost some fights.

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 09:50

ValMar wrote: ↑16 Jun 2018, 11:10

Mexi-Box wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 19:21 There aren't a lot of 10/10's at the moment. Only ones so far, off the top of my head, are: Lemieux (MW), Kudryashov (CW), Gassiev (CW), Beterbiev (LHW), Mikey (LW), Kavaliauskas (WW), and maybe Inoue (BW).

Spence is nowhere near 10/10.

Honestly, I have never watched Kavaliauskas, and I don't know anything about him. I would like that you right about him.
I have been watched Inoue twice, maybe this is my prejudice, but I feel that in all weight division under 135, the competition is terribly weak...So,it is very difficult to evaluate the tiny guys.
Kudryashov can punch, definitely, but he is capable to beat only fighters C/B level, so I would not give him 10/10. Someone might claim that Price is in a similar situation, but he had defeated (and KO'd) some solid fighters (and hurt Povetkin, too)....

I don't think Price is 10/10, though. He's on par with Joshua and Wilder. Only Klitschko was 10/10.

Look at how Kudryashov KO's opponents. You can tell he's 10/10. It's like saying Julian Jackson isn't 10/10 because he lost some fights.

Honestly, you might be right....