BoxRec

Full marks for brevity but how do you see it going? Stop me if you disagree with my reasoning ...

1. Joyce appears to have a good chin despite having been knocked out by Kuzmin as an amateur (any others?)

2. He definitely has the stamina to outlast Ortiz.

3. Ortiz is the better boxer and may still be the faster man.

4. If Ortiz is to win he'll need to knock out Joyce or build up a points lead in the first half and hope to stay ahead for the points decision as Joyce's energy takes over down the stretch.

5. It's an interesting match but my money would be on Joyce, whereas if Ortiz could turn back the clock two or three years it would be a different story.

diddy wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 13:05 Ortiz would beat Joyce's ass.

I'm sure he would for now, but they wouldn't be throwing Joyce in that deep yet surely.

Joyce said the Kuzmin stoppage showed him how much he needed to warm up before he fought.

Watch how he waits during the announcements before he fights. He literally doesn’t stop bouncing and shaking his arms out/throwing little flick punches. His keep warm pre-fight routine would tire most heavyweights out!
He’s big, strong, awkward and very tough. Unless someone takes him out with a big single shot, they’ll all have a bit of trouble with him. Even Joshua.
He’s a top athlete make no mistake. Sure he looks crude and is easyish to hit but look at his amateur medal haul. With fair scoring he would have been Olympic champion!

Hard to work it out I know, but there is definitely something there.

Ortiz sadly will suffer the same fate like he did before he finally got his shot at wilder, that is being avoided or let's say not be given the chance to fight top guys or for a title, if it is somehow avoidable. he's stil a skilled too dangerous puncher that they would risk their reputation/ranking against him. I still would favour him heavily against practically anybody, 50/50 against fury/joshua/whyte, none of it will happen, ofcourse, he is running out of time. Wilder, in a rematch (won't happen) he would knock out definitely. Joyce if he really should step up to the plate would get knocked out too but that's why it won't happen.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 14:27

diddy wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 13:05 Ortiz would beat Joyce's ass.

I'm sure he would for now, but they wouldn't be throwing Joyce in that deep yet surely.

He's got masses of amateur experience, been top level for a long time, and he's now turned 33.

I doubt he's likely to get much better at this stage. If not now then when?

adislav123 wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 21:20 Ortiz sadly will suffer the same fate like he did before he finally got his shot at wilder, that is being avoided or let's say not be given the chance to fight top guys or for a title, if it is somehow avoidable. he's stil a skilled too dangerous puncher that they would risk their reputation/ranking against him. I still would favour him heavily against practically anybody, 50/50 against fury/joshua/whyte, none of it will happen, ofcourse, he is running out of time. Wilder, in a rematch (won't happen) he would knock out definitely. Joyce if he really should step up to the plate would get knocked out too but that's why it won't happen.

Joyce has already called out Miller and Ortiz too I believe. I like Ortiz he is/was a worthy contender, but although he had 300+ amateur fights he didn't do anything marvellous on the world stage did he? You could argue that Joyce was the better amateur.

Ortiz had his chance but couldn't finish Wilder when he had him hurt, and fighting on instinct and rubber legs. I'm not saying it's impossible because anything can happen in heavyweight boxing, but his odds of beating Joshua would be very slim now in my opinion.

No contradiction to what i wrote at all, except you favouring joshua, me seeing it even, that are opinions. But calling out a guy and being actually willing to fight and following through are 2 different things, otherwise wilder would be undisputed & would have beaten everybody of note.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 03:58

adislav123 wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 21:20 Ortiz sadly will suffer the same fate like he did before he finally got his shot at wilder, that is being avoided or let's say not be given the chance to fight top guys or for a title, if it is somehow avoidable. he's stil a skilled too dangerous puncher that they would risk their reputation/ranking against him. I still would favour him heavily against practically anybody, 50/50 against fury/joshua/whyte, none of it will happen, ofcourse, he is running out of time. Wilder, in a rematch (won't happen) he would knock out definitely. Joyce if he really should step up to the plate would get knocked out too but that's why it won't happen.

Joyce has already called out Miller and Ortiz too I believe.

What were the commercial terms of the offers submitted by the Hayemaker Ringstar promotional team to Luis Ortiz and Jarrell Miller to face Joe Joyce? None were disclosed.

From what I’ve read, David Haye and Richard Schaefer often use the age-old promoter tactic of submitting lowball offers to rival fighters and then boldly proclaiming “duck” when they aren’t accepted, which helps perpetuate the myth that “nobody wants to face Joe Joyce”.

Alternatively, Joe Joyce has called out fighters in the media and Hayemaker Ringstar promotions have made no effort to actually contact the boxers being mentioned. It’s all talk!

I’ll give you an example: I have stated multiple times to the media (i.e. this forum) that I would be willing to offer GGG $1 to face me, but no one from his team has bothered to respond. Therefore, would it be reasonable for me to claim that Gennady Golovkin is a “duck” because “he doesn’t want to fight me”? The answer is obvious!

Do you not recognise the difference between marketing ploys and genuine attempts to make fights? Have you actually watched Joe Joyce compete? There’s no reason for the vast majority of world-rated heavyweights to dodge him.

Yes of course I'm well familiar with the tactic and I take the point, but Joyce is now 33 years old and he needs to make a serious move now. I don't see what the point would be of pretending he wants meaningful fights.

Yes I have watched his professional fights to date up until his most recent (which I've not yet seen) as well as a few WSB/amateur bouts. I know you don't rate him and that's your prerogative but I believe that a match with Ortiz would end in a victory for Joyce and put him in the frame for a title fight. It's not without risk but he's not going to get anywhere without taking on a serious challenge before age puts such an undertaking beyond him.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 08:31 Yes of course I'm well familiar with the tactic and I take the point, but Joyce is now 33 years old and he needs to make a serious move now. I don't see what the point would be of pretending he wants meaningful fights.

Yes I have watched his professional fights to date up until his most recent (which I've not yet seen) as well as a few WSB/amateur bouts. I know you don't rate him and that's your prerogative but I believe that a match with Ortiz would end in a victory for Joyce and put him in the frame for a title fight. It's not without risk but he's not going to get anywhere without taking on a serious challenge before age puts such an undertaking beyond him.

I sincerely hope that my evaluation of Joe Joyce is ultimately proven to be incorrect. I kind of like the guy, as in his personality, but I cannot help thinking that he’s a tad limited.

Believe me, no one would be more delighted to see Joe Joyce knock-out Luis Ortiz than me. So my heart prefers your evaluation of the Brit, even though my head tells me otherwise.

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 03:49

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 14:27

diddy wrote: ↑02 Oct 2018, 13:05 Ortiz would beat Joyce's ass.

I'm sure he would for now, but they wouldn't be throwing Joyce in that deep yet surely.

He's got masses of amateur experience, been top level for a long time, and he's now turned 33.

I doubt he's likely to get much better at this stage. If not now then when?

I'm sure he'll be moved at a faster pace as a Pro, but I doubt they'll leap up THAT massively in just 1 fight. He'll probably be ready for type of thing by this time next year though. After a few more wins.

It's going to have to do but i still want him to face someone better, especially seeing as he is ranked by one of the sanctioning orgs now.

washington is a perfectly good fight for later this year, sensible step up imo

jamamb wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 12:38 washington is a perfectly good fight for later this year, sensible step up imo

Washington has decent skills. But he has a below average chin.
I want him to fight someone with a great chin. Someone to give him rounds

whats so bad about his chin? miller and mansour couldnt drop him and he lasted longer vs huge punching wilder then anyones lasted against joyce since jjs debut

where does this poor chin stuff come from?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 08:59

candyslim wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 08:31 Yes of course I'm well familiar with the tactic and I take the point, but Joyce is now 33 years old and he needs to make a serious move now. I don't see what the point would be of pretending he wants meaningful fights.

Yes I have watched his professional fights to date up until his most recent (which I've not yet seen) as well as a few WSB/amateur bouts. I know you don't rate him and that's your prerogative but I believe that a match with Ortiz would end in a victory for Joyce and put him in the frame for a title fight. It's not without risk but he's not going to get anywhere without taking on a serious challenge before age puts such an undertaking beyond him.

I sincerely hope that my evaluation of Joe Joyce is ultimately proven to be incorrect. I kind of like the guy, as in his personality, but I cannot help thinking that he’s a tad limited.

Believe me, no one would be more delighted to see Joe Joyce knock-out Luis Ortiz than me. So my heart prefers your evaluation of the Brit, even though my head tells me otherwise.

I do agree that his style is basic but his fundamentals are sound in my opinion although he seems to have a tendency to ignore his boxing and just pummel his opponent if the jab and the defence isn't required. I actually believe Hughie Fury poses more of a threat to him than most rather like how Goyo Peralta and Jimmy Young were able to make the young George Foreman look clumsy and foolish.

We clearly differ in our evaluation but I respect your opinion as I generally do

.

jamamb wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 13:17 whats so bad about his chin? miller and mansour couldnt drop him and he lasted longer vs huge punching wilder then anyones lasted against joyce since jjs debut

where does this poor chin stuff come from?

Apart from the fact none of Joyce's opponents to date are comparable to or on the level of Washington, I agree with you that it is not a weakness in the chin department that is holding Washington back, ok he got dropped by Wilder's big right hand but it didn't keep him down some might even argue the stoppage was premature but I don't know as I'd go that far.

No it seems to me Washington's fatal flaw that will ensure he has got about as far as he's going to is a lack of mental fortitude or strength of character if you will. I know that sounds disrespectful to a man who has fought his way into the top thirty heavyweights in the world on merit but I'm judging him by the highest world level standards.

He seems to struggle physically as a fight progresses, I'm thinking specifically about how he was coasting against Mansour during the first half but was hanging on for dear life down the stretch. I'm not entirely sure if that is a lack of stamina, a physical deficiency or whether the apparent fatigue, and loss of desire is a manifestation of the psychological weakness that looks to me to be the major problem.

Either way I don't imagine he would/will pose a threat to Joe's advancemen,t but he should give him some good rounds and may in fact be ahead on points at the halfway mark. I like the fight, it's a logical step between the likes of Thomas or Kiladze and a formidable test like Ortiz. Ok you made a sale

ya i can see that but unless your gonna match him with top flight guys pretty much every possible opponent will have some sort of notable flaws .

i think wash is pretty much a perfectly logical step up on his current level of opp, too me obviously a better step then joey would be (no offense joey). if joyce wins that he should be around the top 20 and then ready to push on for next year. some talk of wash being chinny, but if joyce can really put a dent in washington , like drop him and hurt him good, hes done something miller and mansour didnt.

jamamb wrote: ↑03 Oct 2018, 13:17 whats so bad about his chin? miller and mansour couldnt drop him and he lasted longer vs huge punching wilder then anyones lasted against joyce since jjs debut

where does this poor chin stuff come from?

I swore he was dropped by Miller. I could easily be wrong I've slept since then.
But your comment about Washington lasting longer against Wilder than any opponent Joyce has faced is incorrect.
Wilder ko'd Wshington in 5. Joyce went 8 with Lewison in his debut. Not that either has a dadgum thing to do with the other.

I still want to see Joyce getting rounds in. I hope Washington can give him some

i said since his debut, meaning after that fight

washington wasnt down vs miller or mansour so i think his durability is okay. if joyce blows him out then your looking at a very good result.

Not sure how good his source is but that's even worse than the rumoured Gerald Washington matchup

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑01 Oct 2018, 08:53 Joe Joyce looked has looked slow, awkward and clumsy in all of his last three outings.

He's getting fast-tracked, due to being 33 years of age, but against the terribly dire Iago Kiladze, he demonstrated very little skill, he didn’t know how to cut the ring off, his footwork was poor and his jab was almost non-existent. The Brit cluelessly chased the Georgian around the ring in straight lines, whilst throwing a lot of slow crude telegraphed looping shots.

Abel Sanchez has got his work cut out for him, because the Brit’s defence was extremely porous against Iago Kiladze. He is being asked to perform miracles, by teaching an old slow crude cumbersome clueless dog a lot of new tricks and I don’t believe that any trainer, regardless of their track-record, will be able to achieve that truly ambitious goal.

Joe Joyce hasn’t demonstrated anything inside the ring to justify the amount of hype he’s received.

I don’t envisage the Brit accomplishing very much in the sport, because I’m becoming increasingly convinced about him eventually being regarded as the second coming of Michael Grant, but with far less talent and mobility than the previously hyped-up American.

If the sport of boxing was more akin to ‘Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots’, rather than being a ‘Sweet Science’, then Joe Joyce would inevitably gain much more success.

I hope I’m wrong though. I’d like to see the Brit improve, but I just don’t think he can.

Great post EO! I agree 100%. Joyce hasn't shown me anything that makes him a contender now or in the future. Late start may have hurt him, but I can't see him challenging even a top 10.

washington would be pretty much the ideal step up imo, hanks not so much

jamamb wrote: ↑30 Oct 2018, 11:23 washington would be pretty much the ideal step up imo, hanks not so much

I think Washington would give Joyce fits.

he might, at least in spots, although i think he has an issue being preassured

jamamb wrote: ↑30 Oct 2018, 11:26 he might, at least in spots, although i think he has an issue being preassured

Agreed, but Joyce is just too damn slow; plodding...