BoxRec

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2018, 16:28 Favoring Foreman is reasonable but I think Ortiz would be a more difficult opponent than many think. I also don't see the Wilder loss as such a huge negative. Wilder may go on to establish himself in the coming years.

Foreman was a lot bigger than his weight suggests. I have stood along side him and he was huge. In his younger days he trained and dieted to be lean. When he cared less after the Ali loss he was a very fit 230lbs....he was a very naturally strong man. I used to run with Lennox Lewis at Danson park, and while he was taller (this was late 1980s) he didn't have the same natural size.

evrenb wrote: ↑22 Oct 2018, 02:00 Foreman was a lot bigger than his weight suggests. I have stood along side him and he was huge. In his younger days he trained and dieted to be lean. When he cared less after the Ali loss he was a very fit 230lbs....he was a very naturally strong man. I used to run with Lennox Lewis at Danson park, and while he was taller (this was late 1980s) he didn't have the same natural size.

Yes, Foreman was from the era where heavies actually got themselves as lean and fit as possible, hence their lower weights. Cojimar types who don't know anything, and who skim Boxrec records looking for anything that seems to corroborate their opinion that anything not modern must be inferior, focus on the lower weights because they think it demonstrates weakness, rather than what it is, which is an athlete being in top physical condition. Luis Ortiz with his physique would be seen as a disgusting slob in the 60s and 70s. He would be at a disadvantage against a man in shape. See how Buster Mathis began to struggle with the pace of Joe Frazier.

If Ortiz trained like a demon he looks as if he could be a 212lb type heavy.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2018, 12:49 For the record Wilder might well beat Foreman. He would be the biggest puncher George ever faced. If Lyle could nearly take Foreman out you wonder what Wilder would do.

Some posts you can only laugh. Who's the biggest puncher Wilder has faced?

Ortiz weighs 240lb, so by your thinking he hits harder than Foreman, yes? The source of power is contained in the gut and breasts?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2018, 12:43 He might beat Ortiz but Foreman sized heavies have not done well in the division lately.

'Fighters the same size must therefore be the same quality' -- Cojimar's logic in a nutshell.

It's posts like these that convince me that Coji's trolling. Wilder has been down versus Harold Sconiers, and badly shaken up by the likes of Stiverne, Eric Molina, Ortiz, and others, and yet he picks him over George Foreman, because Foreman was knocked down by Ron Lyle.

It's difficult to imagine someone being this dumb. I'm calling troll.

I am going to second the motion. Used to think he was simply not knowledgeable about the sport. However, it has to be more than that.

I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that a skilled heavyweight such as Ortiz could cause some difficulty for Foreman.
Ortiz has height and reach advantages over Foreman. He has a very good amateur pedigree. Excellent jab and a solid chin.
To suggest that Foreman steamroller Ortiz is just being dismissive.
But by no means am I suggesting Ortiz wins.
Foreman is clearly the favorite.
But I am suggesting that Ortiz can last several rounds and put on a decent show

Tiny, if you think knocking around Tony Thompson and Bryant Jennings, and getting bounced off the canvas by Deontay Wilder, equates being competitive with a legitimate Great like George Foreman, then frankly you're as stupid as the type of poster Cojimar is only pretending to be.

Many people pink Lennox Lewis to beat Foreman despite being one-shotted by McCall and Rahman. If getting shaken or dropped by non-greats somehow makes it silly to pick Wilder than what of Lewis's devastating kayo losses? I mean, pretty silly to pick someone ko'd by Rahman against Foreman but many here do.

Back in Foreman's day many older boxing fans refused to accept him as great and many never did. Sort of like you and Ambling Alp refuse to give fighters today the credit they deserved. Also, getting shaken up is not really the same as getting dropped heavily like Foreman was against Lyle and the one guy to drop him was pre-prime.

Back when Lewis was active his glass chin was a frequent topic on conversation on boxing message boards, I find it odd that since he has retired his losses and awful performances are somehow being swept under the rug and ignored. I would almost worry people are holding fighters of the past to a different standard and overlooking their flaws.

Also, the majority of boxing fans don't rate Lyle very highly as a fighter or a puncher. Baby boomers seem to generally be the only generation that is high on his abilities and they are a rapidly shrinking group, dying off quickly and outnumbered by younger fans.

What the hell do the last two posts actually mean!???? i can make no sense of it.

I was just commenting on how Wilder's perceived lack of durability is a major cause for concern against Foreman but somehow the same is not true for Lewis.

We have the complete picture of Lewis's career, with all his strengths and weaknesses. Foreman ditto. I personally don't pick him over Foreman, but it's easier to imagine a fight between them because of the above point.

Anyone who would confidently pick Wilder, Joshua or Fury over any proven great is a fool, as we don't have anything like a complete picture of them. But with Fury having been decked by weak opponents, Wilder badly buzzed in several recent fights against handpicked challengers, and Joshua battling exhaustion and having to come off the floor to beat a 41 year old who hadn't had a fight in a year and a half, they all look vulnerable and one or all of them may have cataclysmic knockout losses in their near futures. At least with Ortiz we know he's not going to do anything else at 40, so it's a case of how highly you regard beating Bryant Jennings, Tony Thompson and Malik Scott.

We do have a complete picture of Lewis's career indeed and it includes two devastating knockout losses to guys who were not regarded as anything special and whose accomplishments consist of bombing out Lewis and not much else to speak of. Oh wait, Rahman was also knocked clean out of the ring by Oleg Maskaev and outpointed by John Ruiz of all people, I guess that's memorable although not in a good way.

The McCall fight was not by any means a devastating knockout. He got up and wanted to continue. The referee stopped it prematurely.
Lewis was not perfect by any means. However, he proved several times against quality competition that he was a great fighter.

lol...stopped early? lenny was falling on the ref even after the ref got to 8/9 and then took time to look him over

lenny may have wanted to go on but he ddnt at all show he was in condton to do so. f@cng hlarous to try actng as though that one was a premature ref butcher job. just face it lenny got dropped hard and legitimately stopped by mccall the 1st fight. he was a great fighter but that happened

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑22 Oct 2018, 04:16

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2018, 12:43 He might beat Ortiz but Foreman sized heavies have not done well in the division lately.

'Fighters the same size must therefore be the same quality' -- Cojimar's logic in a nutshell.

It's posts like these that convince me that Coji's trolling. Wilder has been down versus Harold Sconiers, and badly shaken up by the likes of Stiverne, Eric Molina, Ortiz, and others, and yet he picks him over George Foreman, because Foreman was knocked down by Ron Lyle.

It's difficult to imagine someone being this dumb. I'm calling troll.

stiverne never badly hurt wlder. . not at all

of course foreman would beat ort though

jamamb wrote: ↑22 Oct 2018, 17:50 lol...stopped early? lenny was falling on the ref even after the ref got to 8/9 and then took time to look him over

lenny may have wanted to go on but he ddnt at all show he was in condton to do so. f@cng hlarous to try actng as though that one was a premature ref butcher job. just face it lenny got dropped hard and legitimately stopped by mccall the 1st fight. he was a great fighter but that happened

Have seen guys come back from a similar situation countless times. The referee asked him if he wanted to continue. He said yes. The ref should have let him continue.

Wilder may yet lose but hes had 40 fights thus far so I think we probably have enough information to gain a some idea of his strengths and weaknesses. He certainly seems to be a pretty massive hitter based on the information we do have. It's true his competition is not always top-notch but I think we can gain some idea of someones power based on 'video.

As far as picking fighters who have yet to retire over proven greats I think it depends on the one in question. Rocky Marciano and Ezzard Charles would be giving away 6 -9 inches in height and 55-70 pounds against guys like Joshua and Fury. When you get to such massive size differences against a reasonably skilled opponent I think its probably just too much to deal with.
It would be interesting to see how Marciano went about trying to land on someone 9 inches taller with a 17 inch reach advantage.

Wilder, Fury, and Joshua are the only current guys worth talking about. And so far none have fought each other. They are all untested. We will know a little more about Fury and Wilder after they fight. Doesn't how much they weigh or what their reach is or how pretty their record is. What matters is if they can fight.

Do you think Dubois, Yoka, Adjagba, and Hrgovic have potential? Some people seem to feel they could be something special.

len said he wanted to continue but his body did other things. he probably wouldve face planted if he didnt have the ref for hugs

I just watched this again on youtube to make sure my memory of this wasn't distorted.

That was a good stoppage by the ref. Lewis wanted to continue but he was in no shape to.
Lennox just got caught but he was not in any shape to continue

He had enough sense to put his gloves up to show the ref that he was OK. If he was totally out he would not have done so.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Oct 2018, 21:35 He had enough sense to put his gloves up to show the ref that he was OK. If he was totally out he would not have done so.

And Mike Tyson had enough sense to put in his mouth piece. Whats your point