BoxRec

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 22:19

Nile4000 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 19:59

Tony1244 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 16:39

Not saying those fights couldn't or shouldn't have happened. But if you check the record - all those guys lost to someone else during the timeframe a Holmes fight could have happened.

True, but during the later part of 1983, he fought Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier. Inexcusable.

Holmes started promoting himself at this time. He made good money and was a long term champ. He earned a couple of easy fights. He had 4 fights in 1983. An easy Scott Frank and he made 5 million facing Frazier
Give the guy a break

I can't. Not with Scott Frank. That is a ridiculous choice for a title defense. He should be quartered and drawn for that one. Hell, they should have stripped him then.

Silly, any active champ has fights like that

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 22:59 Silly, any active champ has fights like that

4 fights in 1 year the guy deserves an easy touch here and there. I'd muCh rather a champ stay active than fight 0nce or twice a year like they do now

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 23:00

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 22:59 Silly, any active champ has fights like that

4 fights in 1 year the guy deserves an easy touch here and there. I'd mush rather a champ stay active than fight 0nce or twice a year like they do now

shocking people dont

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 23:03

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 23:00

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 22:59 Silly, any active champ has fights like that

4 fights in 1 year the guy deserves an easy touch here and there. I'd mush rather a champ stay active than fight 0nce or twice a year like they do now

shocking people dont

But Canelo can handpick a fielding and he's now a 3 division champion

The problem with Holmes is that he missed out on many of the most dangerous contenders of his era.
Where are the fights with Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Gerrie Coetzee, Tony Tubbs, etc? He never made any attempt to unify and prove he was number one.

He had already proven he was #1.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 01:59 The problem with Holmes is that he missed out on many of the most dangerous contenders of his era.
Where are the fights with Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Gerrie Coetzee, Tony Tubbs, etc? He never made any attempt to unify and prove he was number one.

Beating any of those wouldn't prove that anyway,he made more defences than all of those put together and anyone who thinks not fighting any of them tarnishes his legacy doesn't know boxing.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 22:19

Nile4000 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 19:59

Tony1244 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 16:39

Not saying those fights couldn't or shouldn't have happened. But if you check the record - all those guys lost to someone else during the timeframe a Holmes fight could have happened.

True, but during the later part of 1983, he fought Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier. Inexcusable.

Holmes started promoting himself at this time. He made good money and was a long term champ. He earned a couple of easy fights. He had 4 fights in 1983. An easy Scott Frank and he made 5 million facing Frazier
Give the guy a break

Good point.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 19:59

Tony1244 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 16:39

Nile4000 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 10:14 A great fighter with a great jab who refused to fight Greg Page or Pinklon Thomas, or rematch Tim Witherspoon or Carl Williams. 3 of those guys with very good jabs themselves.

Not saying those fights couldn't or shouldn't have happened. But if you check the record - all those guys lost to someone else during the timeframe a Holmes fight could have happened.

True, but during the later part of 1983, he fought Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier. Inexcusable.

Ali fought Antonio Anoki when he could have rematched with George Foreman.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 09:45

Nile4000 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 19:59

Tony1244 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 16:39

Not saying those fights couldn't or shouldn't have happened. But if you check the record - all those guys lost to someone else during the timeframe a Holmes fight could have happened.

True, but during the later part of 1983, he fought Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier. Inexcusable.

Ali fought Antonio Anoki when he could have rematched with George Foreman.

I honestly believe that a rematch with Foreman wouldn't have been a responsible choice for Alì: rope-a-dope isn't a recommended tactic... Very demanding and severely punishing.

It tarnishes his legacy by any reasonable criteria. There is no reason to assume he makes all those title defenses if he fights Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Tony Tubbs. Especially from 1983 onwards he was taking easy fights and avoiding the best.
Many people thought he lost to Tim Witherspoon anyway. And of course Witherspoon didn't get a rematch.

There seems to be this assumption that Holmes would have beaten the guys in question and this idea that because people think he would have won he didn't need to actually fight them. That's not how it works.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 12:32 It tarnishes his legacy by any reasonable criteria. There is no reason to assume he makes all those title defenses if he fights Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Tony Tubbs. Especially from 1983 onwards he was taking easy fights and avoiding the best.
Many people thought he lost to Tim Witherspoon anyway. And of course Witherspoon didn't get a rematch.

There seems to be this assumption that Holmes would have beaten the guys in question and this idea that because people think he would have won he didn't need to actually fight them. That's not how it works.

Every champion has fought 'bums.' Louis had his bum of the month club FFS. You are entitled to your opinion, and I don't agree.

You also have to look at the good fighters that he did fight. He beat Shavers, Witherspoon, Cooney, Snipes, Smith, (technically Williams), etc. Even Ocasio, Frazier, and Bey were considered decent going into the Holmes fights.

Sure it would have been nice for him to fight a few more good fighters, but sometimes that isn't always an option. It's like who ask why a a movie didn't have Robert DeNiro in it. Sometimes guys just aren't available. Sometimes you want to fight Fighter A but Fighter A is already signed to fight Fighter B. So you fight Fighter C instead.

I don't hold it against a champion for beating a tomato can. I just don't give him any credit.
This is another reason the sheer number of title defenses don't mean anything. You should not give a champion credit for beating somebody like Scott LeDoux.

As for unifying the title, there really was no reason to do so. Everyone considered Holmes the real champion. There was no outcry for a unification fight. He was tentatively scheduled to fight John Tate after tate fought Weaver. However after Weaver won, there really was not outcry for him to fight Weaver since he had already beaten him and everyone knew that he was better.

More fans used to really know the sport and knew that WBS titles don't mean much.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 09:45

Nile4000 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 19:59

Tony1244 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 16:39

Not saying those fights couldn't or shouldn't have happened. But if you check the record - all those guys lost to someone else during the timeframe a Holmes fight could have happened.

True, but during the later part of 1983, he fought Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier. Inexcusable.

Ali fought Antonio Anoki when he could have rematched with George Foreman.

But truthfully, was there really a need for an Ali-Foreman rematch?

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 23:00

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 22:59 Silly, any active champ has fights like that

4 fights in 1 year the guy deserves an easy touch here and there. I'd muCh rather a champ stay active than fight 0nce or twice a year like they do now

But 2 easy touches straight? That's cheapening the crown. He knew Page and Witherspoon were going to put a whipping on him. Scott Frank wasn't.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 14:37

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 09:45

Nile4000 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 19:59


True, but during the later part of 1983, he fought Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier. Inexcusable.

Ali fought Antonio Anoki when he could have rematched with George Foreman.

But truthfully, was there really a need for an Ali-Foreman rematch?

Sure, why not? Foreman had beaten Lyle and Frazier again in that timeframe.

I don't necessarily think Page or Witherspoon would have beaten Holmes. Of course, the Witherspoon fight was very close. I haven't watched it in decades, so I won't comment further on that fight.

I'm not defending Holmes but other great champions fought 2 or more mediocres in a row.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 14:39

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 23:00

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑25 Dec 2018, 22:59 Silly, any active champ has fights like that

4 fights in 1 year the guy deserves an easy touch here and there. I'd muCh rather a champ stay active than fight 0nce or twice a year like they do now

But 2 easy touches straight? That's cheapening the crown. He knew Page and Witherspoon were going to put a whipping on him. Scott Frank wasn't.

Much as I hate to add to this debacle, Ali fought Dunn; Wepner; etc. Frazier fought Stander; Foreman fought Roman; the list goes on and on and on...I don't mind those fights when they are sandwiched with good opponents and good bouts.

If I remember correctly, Foreman defended against Roman instead of Quarry, and Frazier had 2 easy defenses instead of Mac Foster and maybe Lyle. Not good.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:19 If I remember correctly, Foreman defended against Roman instead of Quarry, and Frazier had 2 easy defenses instead of Mac Foster and maybe Lyle. Not good.

Joe Louis fought Arturo Godoy; Buddy Bear; Abe Simon; Tony Galento...Nile, you are not paying attention.

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:21

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:19 If I remember correctly, Foreman defended against Roman instead of Quarry, and Frazier had 2 easy defenses instead of Mac Foster and maybe Lyle. Not good.

Joe Louis fought Arturo Godoy; Buddy Bear; Abe Simon; Tony Galento...Nile, you are not paying attention.

I feel you, O, but it is just sad, in a certain way. Which is why Holmes-Spinks l is sort of a wake up call to Larry.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:21

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:19 If I remember correctly, Foreman defended against Roman instead of Quarry, and Frazier had 2 easy defenses instead of Mac Foster and maybe Lyle. Not good.

Joe Louis fought Arturo Godoy; Buddy Bear; Abe Simon; Tony Galento...Nile, you are not paying attention.

I feel you, O, but it is just sad, in a certain way. Which is why Holmes-Spinks l is sort of a wake up call to Larry.

I remember my late father saying he thought that Spinks was the perfect fighter to beat Holmes, at that time before the fight.

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:39

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:21

Joe Louis fought Arturo Godoy; Buddy Bear; Abe Simon; Tony Galento...Nile, you are not paying attention.

I feel you, O, but it is just sad, in a certain way. Which is why Holmes-Spinks l is sort of a wake up call to Larry.

I remember my late father saying he thought that Spinks was the perfect fighter to beat Holmes, at that time before the fight.

He may have been. Awkward and underrated boxing ability. I understand the money aspect, but Larry could have taken on a Tubbs if he really wanted that 50-0.

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:39

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:21

Joe Louis fought Arturo Godoy; Buddy Bear; Abe Simon; Tony Galento...Nile, you are not paying attention.

I feel you, O, but it is just sad, in a certain way. Which is why Holmes-Spinks l is sort of a wake up call to Larry.

I remember my late father saying he thought that Spinks was the perfect fighter to beat Holmes, at that time before the fight.

If Leon wasn't on the hooch 24/7 I think your Father would have been right.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑27 Dec 2018, 10:22

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:39

Nile4000 wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 15:37

I feel you, O, but it is just sad, in a certain way. Which is why Holmes-Spinks l is sort of a wake up call to Larry.

I remember my late father saying he thought that Spinks was the perfect fighter to beat Holmes, at that time before the fight.

If Leon wasn't on the hooch 24/7 I think your Father would have been right.