BoxRec

paddy chavez wrote: ↑06 Feb 2019, 17:55 Foreman vs Frazier all over again

Foreman is a big guy, and he could've hit even harder than Tyson, but prime Tyson was faster, that's how he compensated.

One thing I've few times heard is people giving Tyson props for his amazing footwork: not that Frazier missed that (you just cannot punch that well without a decent footwork), Frazier was great, but by the age Tyson turned pro, Frazier was still dealing with Olympics: by the age Frazier turned pro, Tyson was already a professional world champion: that means a lot of pro experience, and it would play a major key role, in the match.

Moreover, Tyson's defense was damn tight, so I believe it would be too much work for "Smokin' Joe".

Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I don't tHiNK Frazier has a better chin we saw him hurt in the early rounds whereas Tyson required an extended beating to stop and generally faced bigger hitters.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

I don't see either of them as having much footwork. They both walked in.

I picked Frazier in their primes based on Frazier's superior head movement, discipline and heart. Frazier's right hand was a bit underrated.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:58

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

I don't see either of them as having much footwork. They both walked in.

I picked Frazier in their primes based on Frazier's superior head movement, discipline and heart. Frazier's right hand was a bit underrated.

Tyson (young and prime Tyson) had incredible footwork that created angles and opportunities to change stances on the fly and setup his opponents to vicious body attacks and combos to the head. Frazier was the superior inside fighter with unrelenting pressure, but not the best footwork as he came in straight forward and expanded & contracted based on what he "felt" from his opponent.

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 13:05

Tony1244 wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:58

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

I don't see either of them as having much footwork. They both walked in.

I picked Frazier in their primes based on Frazier's superior head movement, discipline and heart. Frazier's right hand was a bit underrated.

Tyson (young and prime Tyson) had incredible footwork that created angles and opportunities to change stances on the fly and setup his opponents to vicious body attacks and combos to the head. Frazier was the superior inside fighter with unrelenting pressure, but not the best footwork as he came in straight forward and expanded & contracted based on what he "felt" from his opponent.

I'd have to go back and watch the tapes. I've forgotten more than I know.

Footwork doesn't always have to be dancing. I need to keep reminding myself.

Great video!

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 13:05

Tony1244 wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:58

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

I don't see either of them as having much footwork. They both walked in.

I picked Frazier in their primes based on Frazier's superior head movement, discipline and heart. Frazier's right hand was a bit underrated.

Tyson (young and prime Tyson) had incredible footwork that created angles and opportunities to change stances on the fly and setup his opponents to vicious body attacks and combos to the head. Frazier was the superior inside fighter with unrelenting pressure, but not the best footwork as he came in straight forward and expanded & contracted based on what he "felt" from his opponent.

I agree with you, oogiebie

elmersalsa wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 14:09

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 13:05

Tony1244 wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:58

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

I don't see either of them as having much footwork. They both walked in.

I picked Frazier in their primes based on Frazier's superior head movement, discipline and heart. Frazier's right hand was a bit underrated.

Tyson (young and prime Tyson) had incredible footwork that created angles and opportunities to change stances on the fly and setup his opponents to vicious body attacks and combos to the head. Frazier was the superior inside fighter with unrelenting pressure, but not the best footwork as he came in straight forward and expanded & contracted based on what he "felt" from his opponent.

I agree with you, oogiebie

Just know I'm not saying prime Tyson beats prime Frazier here (although I used to be pretty confident of that). Just addressing footwork comments.

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

Tyson was a midrange fighter. With his style that's an impossible range with Joe. Look at the difference in their prowess of cutting off the ring with Frazier vs Ali and Tyson vs Tillis. Another thing people exaggerate is Frazier being such a slow starter. I'd love to see mikes face if Joe got up three times charging after him, he'd be as likely to freak out and get dqd as he would to finish him.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 16:25

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

Tyson was a midrange fighter. With his style that's an impossible range with Joe. Look at the difference in their prowess of cutting off the ring with Frazier vs Ali and Tyson vs Tillis. Another thing people exaggerate is Frazier being such a slow starter. I'd love to see mikes face if Joe got up three times charging after him, he'd be as likely to freak out and get dqd as he would to finish him.

Again, I'm referring to footwork. Prime Tyson had remarkable footwork, it made him and his peekaboo style work. Later Tyson would've gotten flattened by Smokin' Joe, but prime Tyson, (short as that was), was remarkable. I never thought Joe was a slow starter, except when he fought Ali, whereby Joe took a few rounds to find his rhythm.

I'm another that feels this is a bad match up for Frazier. I do agree that the longer the fight goes the more it favors Frazier, I just don't see Frazier making it out of the first 5-6 rounds when Tyson was extremely fast and explosive. I went with Tyson .

For the longest time I was the only one who favored Tyson. Now it's just about even in the poll.

I forgot to vote

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 17:17

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 16:25

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

Tyson was a midrange fighter. With his style that's an impossible range with Joe. Look at the difference in their prowess of cutting off the ring with Frazier vs Ali and Tyson vs Tillis. Another thing people exaggerate is Frazier being such a slow starter. I'd love to see mikes face if Joe got up three times charging after him, he'd be as likely to freak out and get dqd as he would to finish him.

Again, I'm referring to footwork. Prime Tyson had remarkable footwork, it made him and his peekaboo style work. Later Tyson would've gotten flattened by Smokin' Joe, but prime Tyson, (short as that was), was remarkable. I never thought Joe was a slow starter, except when he fought Ali, whereby Joe took a few rounds to find his rhythm.

You don't consider cutting off the ring footwork? Tyson never had close to incredible footwork, holy field did.

I don't want to mess up the vote count by testing it, so can anyone tell me, is this one of those nonsense Internet polls were I could vote 25 times if I wanted to, or is it set up so that I can only (properly) vote once under my screen name?

APerno wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:11 I don't want to mess up the vote count by testing it, so can anyone tell me, is this one of those nonsense Internet polls were I could vote 25 times if I wanted to, or is it set up so that I can only (properly) vote once under my screen name?

Only once.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:06

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 17:17

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 16:25

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 12:49

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 05:01 Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

Tyson was a midrange fighter. With his style that's an impossible range with Joe. Look at the difference in their prowess of cutting off the ring with Frazier vs Ali and Tyson vs Tillis. Another thing people exaggerate is Frazier being such a slow starter. I'd love to see mikes face if Joe got up three times charging after him, he'd be as likely to freak out and get dqd as he would to finish him.

Again, I'm referring to footwork. Prime Tyson had remarkable footwork, it made him and his peekaboo style work. Later Tyson would've gotten flattened by Smokin' Joe, but prime Tyson, (short as that was), was remarkable. I never thought Joe was a slow starter, except when he fought Ali, whereby Joe took a few rounds to find his rhythm.

You don't consider cutting off the ring footwork? Tyson never had close to incredible footwork, holy field did.

Of course it's footwork (maneuvering), but Tyson's footwork was extraordinary when he was young and prime. His style wasn't so much to cut off the ring, but to position his punches. Holyfield too had great footwork.

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:49

APerno wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:11 I don't want to mess up the vote count by testing it, so can anyone tell me, is this one of those nonsense Internet polls were I could vote 25 times if I wanted to, or is it set up so that I can only (properly) vote once under my screen name?

Only once.

Thanks -- that's good because Internet polls turn out to be bogus.

APerno wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 20:23

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:49

APerno wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:11 I don't want to mess up the vote count by testing it, so can anyone tell me, is this one of those nonsense Internet polls were I could vote 25 times if I wanted to, or is it set up so that I can only (properly) vote once under my screen name?

Only once.

Thanks -- that's good because Internet polls turn out to be bogus.

The funniest are the ones on current fights when people anonymously vote after the fact to be right.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 20:40

APerno wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 20:23

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:49

APerno wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 18:11 I don't want to mess up the vote count by testing it, so can anyone tell me, is this one of those nonsense Internet polls were I could vote 25 times if I wanted to, or is it set up so that I can only (properly) vote once under my screen name?

Only once.

Thanks -- that's good because Internet polls turn out to be bogus.

The funniest are the ones on current fights when people anonymously vote after the fact to be right.

That's just sad.

I think it comes down to Tyson being able to take Frazier's shots and Frazier not being able to take Tyson's. We saw Frazier dropped and hurt early multiple times. Frazier's only hope would seem to be to take Tyson out before he has a chance to land anything which seems extremely unlikely. Also, I find this notion that Tyson will quit or get discouraged if Frazier keeps fighting back comical. He didn't show a tendency to fold until the last few fights of his career. It's hardly indicative of his mindset in his prime. If Frazier was dropped three times the fight would almost certainly be stopped but if it wasn't Tyson would happily put him down a fourth time and more if needed.

Evander Holyfield quit against Sherman Williams. Does this prove prime Holyfield was a heartless bully who folded whenever anyone fought back?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 12:10 I think it comes down to Tyson being able to take Frazier's shots and Frazier not being able to take Tyson's. We saw Frazier dropped and hurt early multiple times. Frazier's only hope would seem to be to take Tyson out before he has a chance to land anything which seems extremely unlikely.

Also, I find this notion that Tyson will quit or get discouraged if Frazier keeps fighting back comical. He didn't show a tendency to fold until the last few fights of his career. It's hardly indicative of his mindset in his prime.

Evander Holyfield quit against Sherman Williams. Does this prove prime Holyfield was a heartless bully who folded whenever anyone fought back?

Agreed, except, the Holyfield/Williams fight was stopped from a cut caused by a headbutt. How did he quit?

Holyfield claimed he couldn't continue due to a cut but the cut wasn't serious. It wasn't stopped by the fight doctor.