Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:04
First he has to start listening, and at age 30 I don't think he will magically become a good student and maximize his natural gifts.
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Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
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Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:05
He's not a young lad anymore though. Guys with skills have learned them over many years
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:06
Yeah that.oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:04First he has to start listening, and at age 30 I don't think he will magically become a good student and maximize his natural gifts.
Time is not on his side, but he DOES have the potential. He's very athletic - IF he listens and learns and improves quickly - he could be a dominant World No.1 from (say) age 35-37.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:07
I don't mind being called an "annoying pudendum" by people that are frustrated about being regularly proven wrong.oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:59I usually refrain from this type of post, but you really are an annoying pudendum!verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:58You’ve moved your stance.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:41all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:37Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:09yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?
now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'
You originally quoted two separate sentences that appeared to suggest that having very little boxing skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive.
So, I listed several world-renowned sluggers who didn’t have great jabs, good footwork or could possibly be considered as being defensively sound but were still world-class fighters in they heyday.
Now you’ve moved your argument to claim that a fighter can only be world-class if they have beaten a world-rated opponent.
So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words? It seems a bit silly to do that if it doesn’t actually relate to your original argument, now does it?
In fact, I might even own the phrase and create a BoxRec account going by that name.
Insults are a badge of honour, since they're usually an admission of defeat.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:08
He's always had the potential. But unfortunately not the intestinal fortitude to do the proper work. History is littered with unfulfilled potential.skanksta wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:06Yeah that.oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:04First he has to start listening, and at age 30 I don't think he will magically become a good student and maximize his natural gifts.
Time is not on his side, but he DOES have the potential. He's very athletic - IF he listens and learns and improves quickly - he could be a dominant World No.1 from (say) age 35-37.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:09
If you stop posting then people will only THINK you are an idiot.verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:07I don't mind being called an "annoying pudendum" by people that are frustrated about being regularly proven wrong.oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:59I usually refrain from this type of post, but you really are an annoying pudendum!verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:58You’ve moved your stance.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:41all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:37Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:09yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?
now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'
You originally quoted two separate sentences that appeared to suggest that having very little boxing skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive.
So, I listed several world-renowned sluggers who didn’t have great jabs, good footwork or could possibly be considered as being defensively sound but were still world-class fighters in they heyday.
Now you’ve moved your argument to claim that a fighter can only be world-class if they have beaten a world-rated opponent.
So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words? It seems a bit silly to do that if it doesn’t actually relate to your original argument, now does it?
In fact, I might even own the phrase and create a BoxRec account going by that name.
Insults are a badge of honour, since they're usually an admission of defeat.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:20
Eubank Jr is clearly massively talented but I think the epitaph on his career will be 'lost his biggest fights', and I think this will be no exception.
You don't become world-class by losing to world-class fighters.
When Eubank lost to BJS for European/British titles, no-one at all took seriously that his next fight got him the interim WBA title. He quietly dropped it and went back to British title level for the fight with Blackwell, because that was the level he had reached at that point. Similarly, from Quinlan onwards, no-one regarded him as a world champion, his fight against Groves was a shot at world class which he fell short in.
The fight against DeGale, IMO, is another step up. DeGale has avenged his loss, and while he hasn't been as busy in the last four years, I think on the whole, his opposition has been of a higher standard.
DeGale is still just about world class, Eubank Jr beating DeGale convincingly will make Eubank Jr a world class fighter. Losing to him will confirm that he is not.
You don't become world-class by losing to world-class fighters.
When Eubank lost to BJS for European/British titles, no-one at all took seriously that his next fight got him the interim WBA title. He quietly dropped it and went back to British title level for the fight with Blackwell, because that was the level he had reached at that point. Similarly, from Quinlan onwards, no-one regarded him as a world champion, his fight against Groves was a shot at world class which he fell short in.
The fight against DeGale, IMO, is another step up. DeGale has avenged his loss, and while he hasn't been as busy in the last four years, I think on the whole, his opposition has been of a higher standard.
DeGale is still just about world class, Eubank Jr beating DeGale convincingly will make Eubank Jr a world class fighter. Losing to him will confirm that he is not.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:21
And there you have it. End of thread! lol!@matt___s wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:20 Eubank Jr is clearly massively talented but I think the epitaph on his career will be 'lost his biggest fights', and I think this will be no exception.
You don't become world-class by losing to world-class fighters.
When Eubank lost to BJS for European/British titles, no-one at all took seriously that his next fight got him the interim WBA title. He quietly dropped it and went back to British title level for the fight with Blackwell, because that was the level he had reached at that point. Similarly, from Quinlan onwards, no-one regarded him as a world champion, his fight against Groves was a shot at world class which he fell short in.
The fight against DeGale, IMO, is another step up. DeGale has avenged his loss, and while he hasn't been as busy in the last four years, I think on the whole, his opposition has been of a higher standard.
DeGale is still just about world class, Eubank Jr beating DeGale convincingly will make Eubank Jr a world class fighter. Losing to him will confirm that he is not.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:31
to chime in on the discussion you were having above... theres almost no such thing as a perfect fighter, if you went by 'on their best day', Lennox Lewis would beat Rocky Marciano every time... but Marciano retired undefeated and Lewis had 2 KO losses... as I like to say 'thats why we have the fights', because thats the only way to settle it, and sometimes it doesnt actually go the way the form guide says it should.oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:21And there you have it. End of thread! lol!@matt___s wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:20 Eubank Jr is clearly massively talented but I think the epitaph on his career will be 'lost his biggest fights', and I think this will be no exception.
You don't become world-class by losing to world-class fighters.
When Eubank lost to BJS for European/British titles, no-one at all took seriously that his next fight got him the interim WBA title. He quietly dropped it and went back to British title level for the fight with Blackwell, because that was the level he had reached at that point. Similarly, from Quinlan onwards, no-one regarded him as a world champion, his fight against Groves was a shot at world class which he fell short in.
The fight against DeGale, IMO, is another step up. DeGale has avenged his loss, and while he hasn't been as busy in the last four years, I think on the whole, his opposition has been of a higher standard.
DeGale is still just about world class, Eubank Jr beating DeGale convincingly will make Eubank Jr a world class fighter. Losing to him will confirm that he is not.
To go by his demonstrated skillset Eubank Jr is a phenomenal talent... but he's failed to overcome his two biggest hurdles. Results trump perceived ability, and rightly so IMO
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:32
Agreed. As I said earlier, history is littered with unfulfilled potential.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:40
god, you're dumbverlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:58You’ve moved your stance.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:41all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:37Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:09yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?
now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'
So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words?
okay, lets take the fighters you mentioned, who had some technical definiciencies
they did, at least, have wins over world class opponents
then you have Eubank jr
who has technical definiciences, lots of them
and NO wins over world class opponents
so, the 'saving grace' or the likes of say Marciano, would be despite his deficiencies, he at least beat someone worth beating
Eubank jr doesn't have that so say in his favour, either
so he has sub-par skills
and a sub-par resume
making my point that he isn't world class- not contradicting it as you suggest, but underscoring and supporting my point
what do you call a man without world class skills, and without world class wins, fugmo?
here's a clue- NOT a 'world class fighter'.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:46
You didn't answer my question, did you? You've blatantly avoided it, because I've already debunked it.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:40god, you're dumbverlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:58You’ve moved your stance.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:41all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:37Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:09yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?
now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'
So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words?
okay, lets take the fighters you mentioned, who had some technical definiciencies
they did, at least, have wins over world class opponents
then you have Eubank jr
who has technical definiciences, lots of them
and NO wins over world class opponents
so, the 'saving grace' or the likes of say Marciano, would be despite his deficiencies, he at least beat someone worth beating
Eubank jr doesn't have that so say in his favour, either
so he has sub-par skills
and a sub-par resume
making my point that he isn't world class- not contradicting it as you suggest, but underscoring and supporting my point
what do you call a man without world class skills, and without world class wins, fugmo?
here's a clue- NOT a 'world class fighter'.
Why did you go out of your way to specifically quote Nate Vasquez's words if it doesn't actually relate to your argument.
If you’d originally said that Eubank Jr. can’t be considered world-class, because he’s never beaten a world-class fighter – I wouldn’t have challenged you, since that's a reasonable stance to take.
Instead you claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly wrong.
You're just back-tracking, clutching at straws and moving the goalposts to strengthen your stance.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:48
Sheesh! This is like Enlightened One meets Kalan!verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:46You didn't answer my question, did you? You've blatantly avoided it, because I've already debunked it.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:40god, you're dumbverlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:58You’ve moved your stance.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:41all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:37Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:09yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?
now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'
So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words?
okay, lets take the fighters you mentioned, who had some technical definiciencies
they did, at least, have wins over world class opponents
then you have Eubank jr
who has technical definiciences, lots of them
and NO wins over world class opponents
so, the 'saving grace' or the likes of say Marciano, would be despite his deficiencies, he at least beat someone worth beating
Eubank jr doesn't have that so say in his favour, either
so he has sub-par skills
and a sub-par resume
making my point that he isn't world class- not contradicting it as you suggest, but underscoring and supporting my point
what do you call a man without world class skills, and without world class wins, fugmo?
here's a clue- NOT a 'world class fighter'.
Why did you go out of your way to specifically quote Nate Vasquez's words if it doesn't actually relate to your argument.
If you’d originally said that Eubank Jr. can’t be considered world-class, because he’s never beaten a world-class fighter – I wouldn’t have challenged you, since that's a reasonable stance to take.
Instead you claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly wrong.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:52
chris eubank IS world class.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:54
I can't remember too many fighters who successfully managed to change their style late in their careers. The only obvious ones are Wladimir Klitschko and Bernhard Hopkins who were both able to tighten up their defences considerably.
Can Eubank do the same? I don't know, but I'd love to see it. He often talks about 'living the life', well come on Chris, let's see you do this. Footwork, footwork, footwork...
Can Eubank do the same? I don't know, but I'd love to see it. He often talks about 'living the life', well come on Chris, let's see you do this. Footwork, footwork, footwork...
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 12:59
I'd say it's a perfectly sound question for someone whose still learning about the sport and was curious to get other people's opinionsdanconnollyeire wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:02 Does a duck have the potential to be a pony? Some of the ridiculous questions on this board are hilarious
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 13:01
Could we include Johnny Nelson amongst that list of names?Thomastearns wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 12:54 I can't remember too many fighters who successfully managed to change their style late in their careers. The only obvious ones are Wladimir Klitschko and Bernhard Hopkins who were both able to tighten up their defences considerably.
Johnny Nelson is almost certainly one of the all-time-great cruiserweights, because he almost continuously showed signs of improvement and he was also unbeaten for the final decade (21 bouts) of his career, with 14 of them being world championship fights, which I believe is a record that has never been surpassed.
Johnny Nelson’s resume seems poor, because he failed to win 24% of his 59 bouts and also suffered a dozen losses (three of these defeats were suffered during the first three bouts of his career).
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 13:21
It’s clear that you originally claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly untrue.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:09yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?
You then moved the goalposts of your argument to include quality of resume within the scope of your “world-class” criteria, simply because it was a debating tactic to strengthen your stance, since it’s clear you’ve already abandoned your original claim.
So it seems you’ve already conceded defeat, due to your selective amnesia, and there is nothing else to discuss.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 14 Feb 2019, 13:23
Somewhere a village is missing their idiot...verlichte wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 13:21It’s clear that you originally claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly untrue.Counter-puncher wrote: ↑14 Feb 2019, 11:09yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?
You then moved the goalposts of your argument to include quality of resume within the scope of your “world-class” criteria, simply because it was a debating tactic to strengthen your stance, since it’s clear you’ve already abandoned your original claim.
So it seems you’ve already conceded defeat, due to your selective amnesia, and there is nothing else to discuss.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 15 Feb 2019, 07:25
Chris Eubank Jr. is already world class. He hasn't beaten anyone of note though and he'll never become a world champion. He just happens to be one of the top ten 168lb-ers on the planet.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 15 Feb 2019, 10:37
The more I think about it, the more I believe that a boxer can be world class one fight and not world class the next, or fall from world class with losses and no significant wins after being world class before. So right now, no...Eubank isn't world class.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 15 Feb 2019, 12:47
If DeGale outboxes him (as probably could happen), he is almost never going to be truly world-class.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 15 Feb 2019, 19:29
Depending on how you view World Class I'd say he's already there. He can certainly be competitive with most anybody in the world at Boxing, but the guys at the very top are better than him. So when you take into account how many people he's better than I'd say he's world class, but it's all a matter of perspective.
I think he'll beat Degale, but then again I've thought he'd win fights in the past that he wound up not winning so who knows. If he can't beat Degale though I don't see him ever getting a particularly noteworthy win.
I think he'll beat Degale, but then again I've thought he'd win fights in the past that he wound up not winning so who knows. If he can't beat Degale though I don't see him ever getting a particularly noteworthy win.
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 16 Feb 2019, 04:46
I dont know if anybody agrees with me but i think he IS world class. 
Re: Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?
Posted: 16 Feb 2019, 10:19
In his own mind he's already been world class for many years now, its was just the judges who didn't see it that way.
I'd love to see Chris try to take on board suggestions from his new coach, Nate Vasquez. No one likes facing opponents who don't have any obvious weakness. They can often end up imagining there's one there and then usually come unstuck spectacularly as a result.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp
His previous trainer/mascot Ronnie Davis, meanwhile had to struggle for years with the standard dilemma of whether to keep collecting the cheque, or telling his employer what he could do with his overinflated ego.
I don't blame Chris Jr for this, or his famous rich father. Eubank Sr probably felt that blooding his son through fire would be enough without too much concern for technique. It worked for him, sort of, with his counter punching strategy.
You could also argue that Jr is already better than his dad, but that's not enough now for the ambitions both men have.
I'd love to see Chris try to take on board suggestions from his new coach, Nate Vasquez. No one likes facing opponents who don't have any obvious weakness. They can often end up imagining there's one there and then usually come unstuck spectacularly as a result.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp
His previous trainer/mascot Ronnie Davis, meanwhile had to struggle for years with the standard dilemma of whether to keep collecting the cheque, or telling his employer what he could do with his overinflated ego.
I don't blame Chris Jr for this, or his famous rich father. Eubank Sr probably felt that blooding his son through fire would be enough without too much concern for technique. It worked for him, sort of, with his counter punching strategy.
You could also argue that Jr is already better than his dad, but that's not enough now for the ambitions both men have.